RE: Do we care too much about music? (Full Version)

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doinkdom -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/27/2008 9:56:23 AM)

RE: Praying during soft music

Music playing in the background during my prayers helps me to stay focused on my prayer and not wonder off into grocery-list planning mode.



SD456 -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/28/2008 5:20:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

RE: Praying during soft music

Music playing in the background during my prayers helps me to stay focused on my prayer and not wonder off into grocery-list planning mode.


*L* That's exactly what it does for me, too. My mind will wander around if the music wasn't there to help me focus on the prayer.



BenQuebec -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/28/2008 6:27:01 PM)

I agree that we care too much about music.

My wife and I are in charge of the music ministry at our church, and we do everything we can to (1) serve God first and foremost, and (2) serve God's people, our brothers and sisters.

Our heart is for the music to help them focus on God, but there are some (if not many) who focus on the music itself. Not to say that music is a distraction. If somebody is at church to seek God, they'll find Him regardless of any distraction, beit music (good or bad), spats of coughing, or electronic feedback.

However, I do believe that good combination of music & lyrics can be a blessing to anyone there, whether they're seeking God or not. If they're not, hopefully the lyrics sung will plant good seeds.



BenQuebec -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/28/2008 10:09:53 PM)

One more thing I'd like to add. Music can be a distraction in any style, shape or form.

I also think that there will always be musicians on the platform that think the other folks in the congregation aren't really there for God and vice versa.

I believe that people in church who are distracted by music or idolize music would be no different if the music changed or disappeared completely. They would simply be distracted by something else or idolize something else.

Music or not, I believe the deeper issue is, why do we go to church? Are we there to seek God? If so, I'd hope that we wouldn't allow music to be an obstacle in our pursuit, nor should it matter why we think Brother Bob plays out of tune or why Sister Sally sings flat half the time.

My two cents Canadian...



Dancre -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/28/2008 10:36:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Interesting blog piece by a pastor Greg Gilbert called Against Music* which reflects in many ways my growing feeelings about the current state of the evangelical church regarding music. An excerpt:

"I am really afraid that we’ve managed to create a generation of anemic Christians who are spiritually dependent on excellent music. Their sense of spiritual well-being is based on feeling “close to God,” their feeling close to God is based on their “ability to worship,” and being able to worship depends on big crowds singing great music.

‘Just as bad, think about how many church fights and divisions are rooted in disagreements about music. People leave churches because they don’t like the music. Christians who believe exactly the same things about Jesus worship in different buildings next door to each other because they can’t countenance one another’s musical style. Churches split because one faction wants “contemporary” music and another wants “traditional” music. It’s not the words that are at issue; it’s how the words are sung, and to what instrumentation. The thing even has its own name—the “Worship Wars,” which when translated with a little honesty is really “the Music Wars.”"

One thought that comes immediately to my mind is that for all their teachings, I don't particularly remember Jesus or Paul ever mentioning a particular kind of music. I am sure their have been times I have cared too much about the style of music I was singing or listening too - anyone else?


Sigh . . . The things we argue over. [:(] How it must grieve God's heart. I've learned about worship music, as long as it lifts up Jesus' name and exalts Him, who cares if the music is fast and bouncy or a organ played by 95 year old Gertrude? Most folks don't know that a lot of contemporary music comes from the book of psalms or prayers from the song writer. This is my only comment, I won't be back to see the cat fights that I'm sure are going on right now.

kim



stellaluna -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/28/2008 10:39:51 PM)

Hey BenQuebec--it's your forum birthday! [:D]

I came in to confess something. When we arrived at church Sunday, there was a piano on stage. A piano. While we do have a keyboard, we've never had a piano. Turns out the regular worship leader was off somewhere and a guy--a piano player--was leading worship. Even though they did familiar songs and for all intents and purposes it was very good, I didn't like it. I wanted the guitars back. Mea culpa. [sm=icon_smile_blush.gif]



yustme -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/8/2008 9:22:46 AM)

I really enjoy contemporary MUSIC.I'm not an expert in music,but i do know music.When i hear ccm it makes me want to dance BIG TIME.I have always enjoyed dancing.Now having said that,i want to explain something.There is a big difference in the body keeping time to the beat of the music and "dancing" in the Lord.We have a human view of what "dancing in the Lord"is.When the music begins,and the body begins to swing and sway,the body is only responding to the rhythm and beat of the music."Dancing in the Lord"occurs when the saints of God become so "smitten" by the HS that He takes over the control of what that person does.



tafkam -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/9/2008 4:55:31 PM)

Some of the posts in this thread seem to indicate that, if we are enjoying a given musical selection during worship, then we are somehow worshipping emotionally and not spiritually. The logical conclusion to be drawn would be for us to only use music in worship that nobody likes...that way it stands no chance of tickling our ears or appealing to our emotions.

Would anybody care to provide some Scriptural backup for this?

Another poster said we should avoid choruses or hymns that were too repetitive. Have we read Revelation 4:8? Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come." Apparently God is perfectly okay with repetition.



bzirk -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/9/2008 11:37:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Interesting blog piece by a pastor Greg Gilbert called Against Music* which reflects in many ways my growing feeelings about the current state of the evangelical church regarding music. An excerpt:

"I am really afraid that we’ve managed to create a generation of anemic Christians who are spiritually dependent on excellent music. Their sense of spiritual well-being is based on feeling “close to God,” their feeling close to God is based on their “ability to worship,” and being able to worship depends on big crowds singing great music.

‘Just as bad, think about how many church fights and divisions are rooted in disagreements about music. People leave churches because they don’t like the music. Christians who believe exactly the same things about Jesus worship in different buildings next door to each other because they can’t countenance one another’s musical style. Churches split because one faction wants “contemporary” music and another wants “traditional” music. It’s not the words that are at issue; it’s how the words are sung, and to what instrumentation. The thing even has its own name—the “Worship Wars,” which when translated with a little honesty is really “the Music Wars.”"

One thought that comes immediately to my mind is that for all their teachings, I don't particularly remember Jesus or Paul ever mentioning a particular kind of music. I am sure their have been times I have cared too much about the style of music I was singing or listening too - anyone else?


Jack,

I love music as much as the next person -- maybe more than some since I'm a musician. But I have witnessed way too much focus on how the worship music is performed. Some people are downright silly about this. Oh, but hey, the references they make seem to be cloaked in spirituality, i.e., if the music sounds good then the worship service was anointed; if it doesn't sound good, then the spirit didn't move or the spirit was grieved or some such nonsense like that. [8|]

Having said that, I have attended services where a significant number of people have cut loose (so to speak) spiritually -- meaning they didn't worry so much about performance (theirs or the worship leaders), and they really worshipped through song and the Lord's spirit was evident in the outpouring of their sweet hearts. When these things happen, some people get the mistaken notion that they can duplicate it in their own power. This smacks of mysticism, and sadly, this dynamic is way too common in the church.

Also, on quite a few occasions, I've been witness to or had reliable knowledge that a worship leader took himself/herself way too seriously. I think that leading the music for church is definitely a responsibility that should be respected, but it seems that it's too often elevated to something that was never intended. Not saying all or even most worship leaders do this, but way too many do it from what I've seen.



bzirk -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/9/2008 11:43:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AuthorOfMyFaith

I have to say that I am guilty of this one. I am a new Christian and music seems to be a biggie on which church I choose to attend. I attend a Foursquare in Portland, OR where we have rather impressive contemporary worship.

However, a few weeks ago they showed a DVD on worship music that really made me think about my behavior and choices. It was very similar to your point, Jhud. It asked the question 'Do I worship for the Lord or do I worship for myself and the way it makes me feel?' I realized that I was very much worshipping for myself. I don't think any of us can deny what a beautiful thing it is to feel His presence when we worship, but we need to remember that worship is not about us or the way we feel, but rather that we are offering joyful sounds unto the Lord. That we are exalting Him and singing praises unto Him.

Anyway, it made me evaluate my motives. Today, I try very hard to make sure my worshipping is about God and not about me.


Author,

I'd love to know the name of the DVD.

Thanks.



bzirk -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/9/2008 11:48:58 PM)

I read the blog, and what the author describes is just indicative of the consumer mentality that's so infected the church and makes me sick:

quote:

I am really afraid that we’ve managed to create a generation of anemic Christians who are spiritually dependent on excellent music. Their sense of spiritual well-being is based on feeling “close to God,” their feeling close to God is based on their “ability to worship,” and being able to worship depends on big crowds singing great music.


I probably should post this in Darryl's (Walker311's) thread about confessions, but I'll do it here. Frankly, sometimes I get sick of people and just wish they would shut up, and yes, I get sick myself too.



SD456 -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/10/2008 11:20:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AuthorOfMyFaith

I have to say that I am guilty of this one. I am a new Christian and music seems to be a biggie on which church I choose to attend. I attend a Foursquare in Portland, OR where we have rather impressive contemporary worship.

However, a few weeks ago they showed a DVD on worship music that really made me think about my behavior and choices. It was very similar to your point, Jhud. It asked the question 'Do I worship for the Lord or do I worship for myself and the way it makes me feel?' I realized that I was very much worshipping for myself. I don't think any of us can deny what a beautiful thing it is to feel His presence when we worship, but we need to remember that worship is not about us or the way we feel, but rather that we are offering joyful sounds unto the Lord. That we are exalting Him and singing praises unto Him.

Anyway, it made me evaluate my motives. Today, I try very hard to make sure my worshipping is about God and not about me.


Sure, worship is about praising and exalting God first and foremost. But it's not just about that. It's about Him loving on us as we love on Him. It's about having a give and take relational time. There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel the emotion of love and joy, just as it's not wrong to want to feel things with a fiancee. There's no sin in coming to God because we want to feel Him close to us - in fact that's a wonderful reason to come to Him and I think He truly loves that. He wants us to seek Him to feel His presence and feel His love; which are things that will touch our emotions.

God loves to touch our emotions! He loves to pour His joy in us and give us party times of refreshing celebration! God loves all the ways that we laugh and feel joy in His presence - He made us to do these things.



doinkdom -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/11/2008 9:51:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
I read the blog, and what the author describes is just indicative of the consumer mentality that's so infected the church and makes me sick:


Yes!

If I go to church, then what do I get for it?
What a strange way to worship.



SD456 -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/11/2008 12:09:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
I read the blog, and what the author describes is just indicative of the consumer mentality that's so infected the church and makes me sick:


Yes!

If I go to church, then what do I get for it?
What a strange way to worship.


No one would go to church or turn to God if we weren't getting something for it. We're getting peace, joy, rest from our yokes,etc. etc. All of humanity turns to God because of what He offers, not because we know HE'S GOD THE ALMIGHTY AND GREAT AND TERRIBLE ONE (*hear the voice of the wizard in the wizard of oz behind the curtain).

God understands that and truly WANTS us to turn to Him because we want what He gives - and at the same time, He shows us who He is and we end up worshipping Him for it.



doinkdom -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/11/2008 2:06:58 PM)

quote:

No one would go to church or turn to God if we weren't getting something for it.


agreed, that's why God draws us -we are far too sinful to choose God.



bzirk -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/14/2008 12:24:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
I read the blog, and what the author describes is just indicative of the consumer mentality that's so infected the church and makes me sick:


Yes!

If I go to church, then what do I get for it?
What a strange way to worship.


No one would go to church or turn to God if we weren't getting something for it. We're getting peace, joy, rest from our yokes,etc. etc. All of humanity turns to God because of what He offers, not because we know HE'S GOD THE ALMIGHTY AND GREAT AND TERRIBLE ONE (*hear the voice of the wizard in the wizard of oz behind the curtain).

God understands that and truly WANTS us to turn to Him because we want what He gives - and at the same time, He shows us who He is and we end up worshipping Him for it.


Certainly we should be drawn to the Lord for who He is and what that means to us personally. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the idea of consuming a church show and calling that corporate worship. There are even some people who are addicted to this to the point that they will go to great lengths to go where the show is, e.g., Brownsville. Of course it's cloaked in spiritual language such as, "I'm going where God shows up."

The root of this problem has to do with how we are too much of the world (and no, I don't mean we need to be legalistic). I'm talking about our hearts being too much like the world's. We are very much conditioned (at least in America) to consume above all else, and we do it with a vengeance including when we gather as the Church. But that's not what the Lord calls us to be -- mere consumers of a church service, yet it seems so much hinges on the church service being entertaining of which the music is definitely a major part of the dynamic.



yustme -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/14/2008 3:33:46 PM)

Tafkam,I will not go round and round with you on this or any other subject anymore.There is a time and a place for everything,including music style.God created everything and all things and it's man who makes a mess out of everything and all things.I have posted several Scriptures in other posts but never got a response from you.Go ahead,Praise God with whatever music you enjoy,I respect that.But I would like the same respect for my "opinions".I love the Contemporary sound,but "in my opinion",it doesn't belong set to Gospel words.I am not a hymns only person.There's a lot of very beautiful songs out there that really speak to my heart and soul,but the words are set to very"Heavenly" music.Don't try to figure it out because you have misunderstood every one of my posts.



Kath -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/14/2008 5:43:39 PM)

quote:

Tafkam,I will not go round and round with you on this or any other subject anymore.There is a time and a place for everything,including music style.


???

What makes you think he is talking about you?



HeadHome -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/14/2008 8:04:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius
Biblical teaching and doctrine come first for us. The music is secondary.


shouldn't our worship music be an overflow of our doctrine? or at least compliment the teaching?

it would seem that those churches that keep this in mind do a much better job of serving the body


Oh, I agree, and that's why it comes first. If the Biblical doctrine is right, it will be right in everything, including the music.

Even so, if the doctrine is sound in everything, we can tolerate music that isn't to our particular taste, if that makes sense. [8D]


Since the majority of you are more mature than I am - in many ways - I will admit that I care too much about music. If you don't believe that, take a look at my signature. [;)] In fact, I would struggle with 'tolerating music that isn't to my particular taste.' I can do so, but I don't do so with the kind of God-honoring attitude that would please Him greatly.
Now, I have left four churches. Music was no more than a secondary reason in any of them. But we occasionally visit a Willow Creek-style church strictly because we generally like their modern music, though I have no desire to attend that church.
On the other hand, I love several hymns. Those do speak to me, and are IMO far 'richer' theologically. Yet I suspect that part of the reason I consider them richer is because they feature an organ, rather than an electric guitar. There's a sound to "Crown Him With Many Crowns," for example, that to me adds power to the lyrics. But anyway, to paraphrase one of you all, it shouldn't matter what type of music a church plays. The mature believer - meaning, someone other than me [;)] - can live that statement out.

Peace and God bless you all...whether or not you agree with me, or you are wrong. [:D]



SD456 -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/16/2008 1:44:28 AM)

quote:

I'm referring to the idea of consuming a church show and calling that corporate worship.


Except that terming it a "show" is a very subjective comment. I know many people, including myself, who have never felt those things were shows. Usually the people who term it a show are watching and not participating - that makes a huge difference.

quote:

Of course it's cloaked in spiritual language such as, "I'm going where God shows up."


My experience is that God does show up in some places more than other places simply because the Holy Spirit is given free reign in some places more than others. That's pretty common.



saraimay75 -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/16/2008 3:47:19 AM)

Yes, I like music. That is how G-d made me.



yustme -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/18/2008 11:08:09 AM)

The reason why music is so important is because it controls.It "set's the stage",so to speak.Everywhere we go we hear music.If you call a co.and you're put on hold,you hear music.It's generally very soft music because they want you to have patience untill they can get to you.Music can cause people to either hurry up or take their time.It's the same thing in church.The proper kind of music can excite us in the Lord or cause us to respond to the beat.It's up to you whether you want your body to respond to the beat or your heart,Spirit and soul to the Lord.This is why music is so important.IT SPEAKS !! IT CONTROLLS !!



butterfly2cor517 -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/18/2008 12:24:08 PM)

Hi y'all...I'm new here & I dig this thread. I feel that it shouldn't matter whether it's contemporary or traditional music...it's the music of the heart. If you're singing or listening to either style, it makes no difference which you prefer as long as you're heart attitude is right. I was raised with traditional hymns and my favorite is The Old Rugged Cross, but I also like Rebecca St. James, Avalon & some of the newer groups. Let your worship come from your heart and be in love with who God is and the rest will follow. I love the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind & strength & feel that a healthy dose of either kind of music is alright as long as my attitude it in line with Him.



TMeeks -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/18/2008 1:30:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant

Style is unimportant, but depth and truth is very important. If a contemporary song isn't meaninglessly repetative and has sound doctrine, sing it. If a hymn is doctrinally wrong or too repetative, toss it out.

Music, like everything else that God has created, has patterns and rules built into it by the creator. When we ignore those patterns and rules either by ignorance or willfulness, then it breaks down and gets in the way of the truth of the lyrics.

It doesn't matter if that music was written 200 years ago or twenty minutes ago. If it's difficult for humans to make the progressions then it's not going to be as effective as it could otherwise be.

Those composing music have an obligation to learn all they can about music and human musical capacities.



HisCovenant -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (3/18/2008 2:21:09 PM)

I agree. I am classically trained and am quite often appauled at the lack of excellance we lay before the Lord during worship. I know that not everyone is gifted in music, and that's fine... but to offer shoddy worship when we are gifted and capable of more is dismaying to me. And that comment is directed more towards those trained to compose and lead in this area than it is to the congregation that doesn't have any training or much knowledge of instruments, including the human voice.

I went to a singing once with a friend where the denom didn't allow instruments and believed each person should boldly sing out their praise to the Lord. I have no problem with the concept that each person in the congregation should participate and offer all they can to the Lord...

However, these Christians sang with such gusto that it became a shouting match. It reminded me of when you see suffragettes in movies and they are marching and militantly singing hymns. All of the parts were sung with the exact same tone, enthusiasm, coloration and volumn- regardless of the words. At one time they were singing about the crucifixion and sounded more like a blood thirsty mob than mourners. The noises they made didn't always go with the mood of the words of the song. I've never been so distracted during a worship time in my life.



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