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"...there is no univeral human reason. There is no single, universal set of criteria by means of which we can judge definitively the epistemic staus of all beliefs."

"The intellectual genesis for the following chapters lies in our sense of the importance of casting theological method anew in a manner that takes seriously the postmodern context."

"This hermeneutical process occurs in part as the discoveries and insights of various disciplines of human learning inform our theological construction."

"... Spirit's speaking through scripture is always a contextual speaking; it always comes to its heareres within a specific historical-cultural context."

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mushead, you'll not see any argument that *demands* that if one helps their neighbor out is saved.

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10c - what you might see in the soteriology presented is more of a fusion of several atonement theories, not a demanding of the moral theory while whole-heartedly denying a substitution theory (penal....maybe).

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ORIGINAL: jacobwdowning

Ok so here is the question of our time. The Emerging(emergent) Church, is it good or bad?

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ORIGINAL: facedown

earthless
on the 29th there was a response to your postings
and on the 2nd, you posted your link.
and posting "bluntly" isn't "angry"....unless you admit your angry as well?

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i've never read grenz to be honest. i do have a few of mcclarens books around. but it seems to me, that stating someone has had influence doesn't mean that the quotes you provided are in turn "the" end-all. you suggest that brian demonstrates relativism in his writings - any quotes or excerpts you'd like to share?

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every atonement theory is substitutionary - not everyone is penal. and i'm certain you are well aware of the variety of understandings, both ancient and modern, on atonement.

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as to your final question, are you asking for evidence that the ec claims evangelicals teach escapism, or that evangelicals teach escapism? it seems to be the latter, maybe it's too early; however, when the message is: "if you died tonight, where would you spend eternity?", the primal (and one might argue 'only') consequence of "salvation" is life after death - escaping from this world and all its sinfulness and resting in the goodness of god in heaven - why do you need to be saved? - so you can spend eternity with god in heaven - etc.

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no, that is your conclusion. "kingdom now theology" (as used within the emergent church, is taught by jesus in the gospels - any disagreement?

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A period of time when most Churches were red hot on fire for the LORD, sending out more Missionaries than at any time in history, committed to the inherancy of the Word, primarily focused on teaching their Congregations the Word and to do the work of the ministry, devoted to prayer, solid belief in GOD Created, raising godly Children, more concerned about being Biblically correct than Politically correct, Reverance for God, etc.;

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What are you saying is my opinion?
Emergents don't call it Kingdom Now theology, but that is what their version of the Gospel is. If you disagree, then I'd be interested to learn what you understand the EC gospel to be. As for your question: Yes, I disagree that kingdom now is taught by Jesus in the gospels. Jesus said the Kingdom is future. When the disciples asked Jesus if He was going to establish the Kingdom at the time of their baptism in the Spirit. Jesus told them that they were not to know the times and dates set by the Father, but they were to be His witnesses in all the world. It is evident from this exchange that is recorded in Acts 1:6-8 that the Kingdom was, and is, a futute event.

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Please wait a second did I read that right? You don't believe in the kingdom now. What did Jesus say about kingdom in Luke 17:20-21; " The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say "here it is or there it is. Because the kingdom of God is within you". So there is a kingdom that is here on earth. Either your in the kingdom of good or the kingdom of evil.

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christus victor - the death of jesus was an exposure of the cruelty and evil present, and the resurrection as a triumph over these powers. jesus allows himself to the passion, and defeats the powers of evil and releases humanity from it's sin. god in christ intervenes in the world to stand up to satan and the forces of idolatry, violence, and domination (aka sin). (substitution)
satisfaction - christ suffered as a substitute on behalf of humankind and satisfying the the demands of god's honor or glory (largely developed by protestants as "penal substitution")
moral influence - christs passion was an act of exemplary obedience that affects the intentions of those who come to know about it.
ransom theory - justice requires that god pay the devil a ransom to set us free (substitution)
governmental theory - god publicly demonstrates his disatisfaction with sin by punishing his own sinless and obedient son as a propitation. because christs death serves as a substitute for the punishment humans might have received, god is able to extend grace and forgivness.

i think there is much scripture for each of these views, and many of them overlap to some degree or another. as far as the majority of emergents, i might guess the affirmation of christus victor, or some variation of it anyways.

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5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 1Timothy 2:5-6
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House) 1984.

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He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House) 1984.

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gotta run; however, i understand you to desire some substance to the 'evidence' that evangelicals actually teach this thing called "escapism" which you've defined as "the portayal of the gospel as only concerned with escaping hell for some future paradise".
if that's the case, i don't think it will be an issue to demonstrate that this is what is primarily discussed (though other elements may be present 'behind the scense') therefore acuratley said to be "only concerned" -

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emergent methodology
"target"? i'm not certain about that, makes it seem like a military strategy. that there is resonation, is quite obvious. now point 4 a-j....man mushead, it seems you believe that emergents believe that "traditional christians" are going to burn in hell, is that your impression?

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"I guess it is quite central to what we are about really. The idea that the church as an institution was not doing anything for the world and that none of us would want to involve our friends and family in such a mess of an establishment was a big motivator for getting the community functioning..." (Anna Dodridge as quoted in "Emerging Churches"; Eddie Gibbs and Ryan Bolger; pg.79)

"Generally I don't think Christians would like Jesus if he showed up today as he did 2,000 years ago. In fact, I think we'd call him a heretic and plot to kill him too." (Brian McLaren; "A Generous Orthodoxy"; pg. 88)

"The more I study the Bible adn reflect on the life and teachings of Jesus, the more I think most of Christianity as practiced today has very little to do with the real Jesus found there." (ibid. pg. 87)

"We are recovering from a legacy in which religious experience adn devotion have been significantly seperated from the domain of everyday life." (Mark Scandretti; "An Emergent Manifesto of Hope"; pg.27)

"Many of us are rediscovering the social ethics and tangible comapssion of Jesus. This is a healthy development, particularly for those of us groomed in traditions in which the social dimensions of Jesus' life were seperated from His role as Savior. We are developing a more global awareness of needs and opportunities for compassion, justice, and resource sharing. At our best, inspired by the Holy Spirit and motivated by love, we seek justice, reconciliation, healing, and restoration for those who are sick, hungry, thirsty, naked, lonely, or imprisoned." (Ibid. pg. 29-30)

"Because, if there is anything the entrepreneurial church is good at creating, it is compliant cultures - those stepford-like minicities populated with otherwise savvy, creative human beings. Yet, these otherwise savvy children of God somehow missed the memo: they have a brain, a voice, and a Jacobesque call to wrestle, not only with the living God, but with whatever institution claims to hold all truths inside its too perfect confines...Entrepreneurial churches thrive in the most churched areas of the country because they are populated with the already churched, not the unchurched. And their leaders know this, despite their incessant outreach-speak. They know who their real target market is. It is hothouse Christians. And if hothouse Christians are anything, they are passive...it is no wonder that most new world citizens wouldn't put so much as a tire mark on our parking lots. Maybe they get what we refuse to tet: super-sized ecclesia is as much about power as it is about God. With luxurious facilities bordering on the obscene, organizational hierarchies designed to feed pastoral ego, and constituencies of the robotically religious (who else would tolerate living in a machine?) it's not hard to figure out that one's story, creativity, and opinions aren't welcome." (Sally Morgenthaler; "An "Emergent Manifesto of Hope; pg. 181-182

"If the goal of theological inquiry was to extrapolate teh system of propositions the divine Communicator has inscripturated in the pages of the text, it would seem that the systematic theology could - and eventually would - makd the Bible superfluous. why should the sincere believer continue to read teh Bible when bilbical truth -correct doctrine - is more readily at hand in the latest systematic compilation offered by the skilled theologian?" (John Franke and Stanley Grenz; "Beyond Foundationalism"; pg. 63)

"And by bringing these biblical teachings together in a systematic whole, their goal became that of compiling the one, complete, timeless body of right doctrines, which they assumed constituted 'all the councel of God.'" (Ibid. pg. 62)

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when the missionaries came to africa, they had the bible and we had the land. they said "let us pray". wew closed our eyes. when we opened them, we had the bible, and they had the land.

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theologins have written more books about each of these (and other) theories rather extensivly. they are not all simply "another role", but an entirely different vantage or understanding (even while many have overlaping themes) and none are based on just a single passage or two.

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as to the "great commission" - the message instructed to those who go "out" is this summarized in one question "if you died tonight, where would you spend eternity" - aka some model of 'escapism', not 'discipleship'. the whole point is to lead people in saying "the sinners prayer" or show folks that they are destined to hell, but that god loves them, and how if they simply repent, they will someday get to escape the sins of this world, and spend eternity with god.

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and i don't mean to come across the same way, nor do i intend to say that any lengthy discourse is true; however, it might be said that folks who devote themselves to scripture (including evangelicals), and in turn produce volumes on any variety of topics or issues is in some degree "tested".
some of this may be due to cultural, political, or other parameters, and therefore must continue to be evaluated (including modernist evangelical or protestant interpretations).

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"For the Irish of Pelagius' land, the dance that went with the song was Celtic spirituality. This meant finding the goodness in creation and organizing the church to live in harmony with the God of the earth. For the Greeks of Augustine's land, the dance was Roman spirituality. This called for an explanation of how one might appease the removed God living in 'elsewhere heaven.' I am comfortable that different cultures will have different expressions, and to take a Celtic expression to Rome would have met resistance, but so would have the converse" (page 129)

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"Complex understandings meant for all people, in all places, for all places, are simply not possible. Language, situation, specific issues, and peoples own preferences and insecurity all are involved in any belief system." (Doug Pagitt; ibid. page 137)

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sheesh, watch a billy graham crusade taping

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in briefly looking at evangelism explosion, it seems that one of their main points is that 95% of christians never personally lead anyone to christ. how is this (leading) evidences....by how many folks 'say the prayer'. you see, it's all about "conversion". it even lists "two very important questions" by james kennedy "do you know for sure that you are going to be with god in heaven? and if god were to ask you "why should i let you into my heaven" what would you say? and from their vision file "training soul winners is most important"...how do you 'win souls'? easy, by sharing the four spiritual laws and asking a question.

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but it seems that in the gospels there is this primal vision of seeking and serving, and this paradoxical way of the first becoming last, we find this hope...this hope of actually having served/helped/fed/etc christ in the "other". in what we call "baptismal covenant" (the liturgy for when we baptize someone), there is this moment after the celebrant and the canidant respond to each other, that the celebrant and congregation respond with one another, there is a question to the congregation "will you seek and serve christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself? (the response is, 'i will with god's help')

and this one element of difference - salvation is not purely an individual rite, and missiology doesn't center around "conversion" - but in seeking and serving

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africa is widly considered to be a missionary success story. kenya has 65% affirming christian faith. malawi is 68%. congo has nealry 200 times as many evangelical christians as belgium. africa has been seen as "the white man's burden" - to evangelize and "christianize" the peoples. and through all of this "mission", evangelicals (though they are not alone) have been an utter failure. even rwanda was understood to be a "christian nation".

this might even be conveyed in desmund tutu's quote below
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when the missionaries came to africa, they had the bible and we had the land. they said "let us pray". wew closed our eyes. when we opened them, we had the bible, and they had the land.

you see, the efforts of mission work for the past 150 plus years has been more akin to institutionalization, colonization, and 'conversion' more than it has been to (as jesus described it): to preach the good news of the kingdom of god.