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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/21/2008 3:40:24 AM
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VCO
Posts: 110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
. . .
VCO
. . .
the problem is not in speaking of good trees bearing fruit, or the like. the problem is when we fail to embrace a more holistic understanding of what these things mean, beccause when we take this route, the beatitudes are meaningless (at best)..... or even contrary (at worst).
U&U
LOL, "holistic understanding", now that is the first time I have ever heard that expression; I suspect that had to of come out of a "New Age" book. Either way it is a "philosophy":
Col 2:6-8 (NKJV)
6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
So since you brought it up, let's look at the Beatitudes in the NIV Version:
Mat. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, and is aware of how spiritually bankrupt he is because of his sin, and that he desparately needs a Savior.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
. . .Poor in spirit—One who is deeply sensible of his spiritual poverty and wretchedness. . . . —Adam Clarke's Commentary
Romans 7:24 (NKJV)
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Psalms 51:5-12 (NKJV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
Mat. 5:4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.(Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, mourning over his sinfulness.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
Blessed are they that mourn—That is, those who, feeling their spiritual poverty, mourn after God, lamenting the iniquity that separated them from the fountain of blessedness. Every one flies from sorrow, and seeks after joy, and yet true joy must necessarily be the fruit of sorrow. The whole need not (do not feel the need of) the physician, but they that are sick do; i.e. they who are sensible of their disease. Only such persons as are deeply convinced of the sinfulness of sin, feel the plague of their own heart, and turn with disgust from all worldly consolations, because of their insufficiency to render them happy, have God's promise of solid comfort. . . .—Adam Clarke's Commentary
Psalms 51:17 (NIV)
17 The sacrifices of God are a
broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
Mat. 5:5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth. (Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, walking like Christ.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
Blessed are the meek—Happy, ïé ðñáåéò, from ῥáïò, easy, those who are of a quiet, gentle spirit, in opposition to the proud and supercilious Scribes and Pharisees and their disciples. . . . the meek are those . . .in whom the meekness and gentleness of Jesus dwell . . .—Adam Clarke's Commentary
Eph 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Phil 4:5 (NKJV)
5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
Mat. 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled. (Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, being obediant to the LORD.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
They which do hunger and thirst—As the body has its natural appetites of hunger and thirst for the food and drink suited to its nourishment, so has the soul. No being is indestructible or unfailing in its nature but GOD; no being is independent but him: as the body depends for its nourishment, health, and strength upon the earth, so does the soul upon heaven. Heavenly things cannot support the body; they are not suited to its nature: earthly things cannot support the soul, for the same reason. When the uneasy sensation termed hunger takes place in the stomach, we know we must get food or perish. When the soul is awakened to a tense of its wants, and begins to hunger and thirst after righteousness or holiness, which is its proper food, we know that it must be purified by the Holy Spirit, and be made a partaker of that living bread, John 8:48, or perish everlastingly. . . .—Adam Clarke's Commentary
1 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
John 6:35 (NKJV)
35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Mat. 5:7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy. (Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, walking like Christ.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
The merciful—The word mercy, among the Jews, signified two things: the pardon of injuries, and almsgiving. Our Lord undoubtedly takes it in its fullest latitude here. . . .—Adam Clarke's Commentary
1 John 3:17 (NKJV)
17 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? (The implied answer in the Greek is "IT DOESN'T.")
Mat. 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God. (Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, walking like Christ.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
Pure in heart—In opposition to the Pharisees, who affected outward purity, while their hearts were full of corruption and defilement. A principal part of the Jewish religion consisted in outward washings and cleansings: on this ground they expected to see God, to enjoy eternal glory: but Christ here shows that a purification of the heart, from all vile affections and desires, is essentially requisite in order to enter into the kingdom of God. He whose soul is not delivered from all sin, through the blood of the covenant, can have no Scriptural hope of ever being with God. . . . —Adam Clarke's Commentary
Mat. 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God. (Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, walking like Christ.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
The peace-makers—. . .A peace-maker is a man who, being endowed with a generous public spirit, labors for the public good, and feels his own interest promoted in promoting that of others: therefore, instead of fanning the fire of strife, he uses his influence and wisdom to reconcile the contending parties, adjust their differences, and restore them to a state of unity. As all men are represented to be in a state of hostility to God and each other, the Gospel is called the Gospel of peace, because it tends to reconcile men to God and to each other. Hence our Lord here terms peace-makers the children of God: for as he is the Father of peace, those who promote it are reputed his children. . . .—Adam Clarke's Commentary
1 Cor 10:23-24 (KJV)
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's.
Mat. 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Hmmm, this one describes someone who is living the life, and is persecuted for it just like Christ was.)
quote:
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
They which are persecuted—. . . They are happy who suffer, seems a strange saying: and that the righteous should suffer, merely because they are such, seems as strange. But such is the enmity of the human heart to every thing of God and goodness, that all those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution in one form or other.—Adam Clarke's Commentary
James 1:2-4 (NKJV)
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
John 15:20-21 (NKJV)
20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
U&U
1 John 3:24 (NKJV)
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
< Message edited by VCO -- 3/22/2008 12:02:06 AM >
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Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/21/2008 6:22:15 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 538
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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VCO,
Good post. Job well done. Also, Adam Clarke's commentary is one of my favorites.
facedown,
You might notice from VCO's exposition of the Sermon on the Mount, that we evangelicals do not dismiss this important sermon. In fact, some of the best and most challenging sermons I have had the pleasure of hearing, were on the subject of this mountain side sermon.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/21/2008 6:29:09 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/24/2008 7:06:41 AM
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facedown
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
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mushead
i'm going to attempt to respond to your posts - if i miss something that was of importance to you, please feel free to readdress it.
post 171
no other atonement...i agree. however, we have various ways of talking about this atonement. some speak only of it as a transaction or forensic model. and while there certainly are passages that ellude to this, it seems there are others that speak of it in different ways.
i didn't suggest, btw, that these were "means" of atonement.
and regarding your orphan adoption - it doesn't seem to have any hint of penal substitution - of a transaction? sure.
post 172
faith in something? certainly. if we were like children.....my, how we are anything but like children. rather, we often suggest that a child's life, hope, knowledge, etc is a) incappable of being called real life b) blind to the real world, or c) is insufficient - she must go to school and get an education - including college - if she wants to make something of her life, and actually engage the world around her. we appreciate kids, sure. but they just need to "grow up" and be like us.
you miss the point of "mediator" and "proclaimer". think of it this way - we often present a message "about" jesus while neglecting the message "of" jesus.
on your point 2-what do you make of the meaning of being one with god is all about? how does this play into your understanding of soteriology, if at all?
post 173
as to the church fathers - they did not present "penal substitution". that you may find mentions of in a collection of writings really has no value - the works on the order of 50,000 plus pages. in all, penal substitution probably takes in about 0.001 percent of their writings as a whole, while ransom, recapitulation, christus victor, and moral exemplar maybe 20% of their writings as a whole. so it doesn't take much to see that their core doctrine was not penal substitution.
you cannot cite a paragraph, or a string of citations from works unread and claim that they teaches penal substitution. substitution? you bet - it's present in nearly all theories and conversations about atonement. it's as though if you say "substitution" you must mean "penal". and that's simply inaccurate.
post 175
yes, radio preachers are an "infetestinmal percentage" - are you suggesting then, that there is more to the story? (i know, you have been in several posts) thus making the story heard not complete/sufficient/accurate/etc?
interestingly, i might suspect you to say that the message heard on tv or on the radio (etc) is in fact complete-the only thing that is sufficient-and entirely accurate. everything else is gravy (as they say) - it's a result, it's instruction, it's correction, it's "whatever". but it has no bearing on the message itself.
knowing how to play a few chords is not mental assent. and what was presented in the analogy was participation.
salvation is not a matter of linguistics.
no, i didn't miss the point of the "serpent on the pole".
the word "for" isn't there. we can put in there - but to do so, requires a lot, and the consequences are great. but maybe you know what the consequences are, and that's why you suggest its insertion.
peace to you.
VCO
do you believe that jesus was speaking to the people he was speaking to?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/25/2008 5:07:59 PM
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VCO
Posts: 110
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
VCO
do you believe that jesus was speaking to the people he was speaking to?
U&U
To all of the people in the crowd that day, NO. The vast majority that followed him there were not TRUE BELIEVERS, they were following Him because He was at that time "The Greatest Show on Earth". Jesus is the WORD, He is part of the Holy Trinity, He knew His words would be recorded in our Bibles as the Word of God; therefore He was speaking directly to us True Believers of the entire Church Age. There were a few in that crowd that were True Believers, but only a few.
Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
John 6:61-71 (NKJV)
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
1 John 2:18-19 (NASB)
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
John 1:1 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 (NASB)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (NKJV)
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
_____________________________
Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/25/2008 8:32:30 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 538
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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facedown,
glad to have you back. It might not seem like it at times, but I do enjoy discussing these issues with you.
quote:
no other atonement...i agree. however, we have various ways of talking about this atonement. some speak only of it as a transaction or forensic model. and while there certainly are passages that ellude to this, it seems there are others that speak of it in different ways.
I will acknowledge that some people speak of it in different ways, but the issue is whether or not those other ways imply something different, or contradictory, to the method of atonement that Jesus provided.
quote:
post 172
faith in something? certainly. if we were like children.....my, how we are anything but like children. rather, we often suggest that a child's life, hope, knowledge, etc is a) incappable of being called real life b) blind to the real world, or c) is insufficient - she must go to school and get an education - including college - if she wants to make something of her life, and actually engage the world around her. we appreciate kids, sure. but they just need to "grow up" and be like us.
when Jesus spoke of having faith like a child, He was telling us that we should trust as a child does. Children unquestioningly believe what they are told. Jesus said that we too should have an unquestioning faith in what He tells us. However, that does not mean that we are not expected to mature in our knowledge and understanding of His message (1Corinthians 2:6; 3:1-4; Ephesians 4:11-13; Colossians 4:12; Hebrews 5:11-14; James 1:4).
quote:
you miss the point of "mediator" and "proclaimer". think of it this way - we often present a message "about" jesus while neglecting the message "of" jesus.
I'm not sure I understand. How can the message about Jesus be seperated from the message of Jesus?
quote:
on your point 2-what do you make of the meaning of being one with god is all about? how does this play into your understanding of soteriology, if at all?
I'm assuming you are still referring to post #172, but I'm not sure which of the points you are talking about.
quote:
post 173
as to the church fathers - they did not present "penal substitution". that you may find mentions of in a collection of writings really has no value - the works on the order of 50,000 plus pages. in all, penal substitution probably takes in about 0.001 percent of their writings as a whole, while ransom, recapitulation, christus victor, and moral exemplar maybe 20% of their writings as a whole. so it doesn't take much to see that their core doctrine was not penal substitution.
First: may I ask for the source of your percentages.
Second: You seem to be refuting your own argument. If I can find the proclamation of penal substitution in their writings, then I have found evidence of their teaching penal substitution. That some patristic writings focused more on attitudes, conduct, and religious practice (among other issues they wrote about) does not mean that they didn't teach penal substitutionary atonement. Whenever they spoke of atonement they spoke of the primacy of the cross, the resurrection, and the sacrifice. They also spoke directly to the penal substitutionary nature of the sacrifice. That means penal substitutionary atonement. It is not legitimate to argue that because they spoke about other subjects, they did not teach this doctrine. That is the theological version of comparing apples to oranges.
quote:
you cannot cite a paragraph, or a string of citations from works unread and claim that they teaches penal substitution. substitution? you bet - it's present in nearly all theories and conversations about atonement. it's as though if you say "substitution" you must mean "penal". and that's simply inaccurate.
Yes I can. The citations included enough content to establish the message. Remember, I provided multiple quotes from the same works.
Unread by who?
I say penal because it means that Jesus took the penalty for our sins on Himself. The biblical passages that I provided in post #173 establish beyond any doubt that Jesus was punished for our sins so that we could be redeemed, become new creations, and serve God. Just to be clear, I base my doctrine on the revelation of Scripture. I only provide evidence from patristic writings to disprove your assertion that penal substitution is a modern doctrine that was not taught throughout the history of the church.
quote:
yes, radio preachers are an "infetestinmal percentage" - are you suggesting then, that there is more to the story? (i know, you have been in several posts) thus making the story heard not complete/sufficient/accurate/etc?
interestingly, i might suspect you to say that the message heard on tv or on the radio (etc) is in fact complete-the only thing that is sufficient-and entirely accurate. everything else is gravy (as they say) - it's a result, it's instruction, it's correction, it's "whatever". but it has no bearing on the message itself.
What I am saying is that radio preachers do some things that you will not find in churches and they do some things that you will find in churches. They teach something about the nature of life as a follower of Jesus. This you will find in churches as well. At the end of many of these radio sermons, they ask people to make a decision for Jesus. It is implied that asking Jesus for forgiveness also means becoming a disciple...it is implied by the fact that asking for forgiveness is usually understood to involve ceasing the behavior that caused the offense in the first place; and it is implied by the message of that day's radio program. In church, discipleship is normally explained more clearly.
The point of my post however, was that you are doing two things:
1- saying our doctrine is escapism, when in fact that is the unfortunate misconception that does result from how the doctrine is presented - usually in radio and television programs or crusades.
2- Saying that what you hear in the media or at crusades is representative of the whole story that is taught by all evangelicals. It is not the whole story, even in the case of media and crusades (as I said, it is a misconception that is based on misunderstanding and/or lack of information).
So, you are combining misconceptions resulting from a lack of information with the apparent practices of a small group to criticize the actions of millions. To paraphrase Fox News, that is neither fair or balanced.
quote:
knowing how to play a few chords is not mental assent. and what was presented in the analogy was participation.
Yes, I understand your point was participation. My point however, is that participation as a disciple of Jesus requires, to some degree, mental assent.
quote:
salvation is not a matter of linguistics.
No it is not.
quote:
no, i didn't miss the point of the "serpent on the pole".
Okay. Then how come you are still claiming that chapter three was about victory but not penal substitutionary atonement?
quote:
the word "for" isn't there. we can put in there - but to do so, requires a lot, and the consequences are great. but maybe you know what the consequences are, and that's why you suggest its insertion.
It is there in Matthews gospel (3:2) and the sentence structure of Mark leads to the same interpretation. My reason for including it was to point out how the sentence is supposed to be understood...and you are right, the consequences of that are great.
Looking forward to your responses.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/25/2008 8:53:41 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/26/2008 7:13:38 AM
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facedown
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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VCO
matthew 4-5 is at the very beginning of jesus' ministry. your "true believers" and "speaking directly to us" reaks of calvinism or reconstructionism.
luke 13 is a great passage. of course, if we read it as it's written, we find such interesting language such as "you". someone asks jesus "are only a few going to be saved" - believing himself to be saved, and jesus makes his response to "him" directly. the moment, it seems we take on this question as validity for who we are, we are in danger of finding ourselves outside....
john 6 is an awesome place in the gospels, but shoot, don't begin where you did - start a little further back and see why the people were offended, why they didn't believe, why his disciples walked away.
mushead
just was able to get on the computer, and now i have to get off. i have a few time constraints coming up, but i'll do everything i can to post as much as i can.
how can the message about be seperated from the message of?
simple - if one studies something, but does not live it out. some examples: one could teach about martin luther king jr, and know everything about him, maybe even share some similar beliefs and values, but if the person doesn't live in conviction, and then in turn proclaim more than facts about the man, they never would have connected with that which martin did and responded.
shoot, gotta run
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/26/2008 11:00:12 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
when Jesus spoke of having faith like a child, He was telling us that we should trust as a child does. Children unquestioningly believe what they are told. Jesus said that we too should have an unquestioning faith in what He tells us. However, that does not mean that we are not expected to mature in our knowledge and understanding of His message (1Corinthians 2:6; 3:1-4; Ephesians 4:11-13; Colossians 4:12; Hebrews 5:11-14; James 1:4).
Wouldn't it be interesting that the knowledge we are grow in. Is the knowledge in caring, loving God and every human on the face of the earth.
Matt 18: 3-4
This why when Jesus said one day "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/26/2008 11:52:10 PM
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VCO
Posts: 110
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
VCO
matthew 4-5 is at the very beginning of jesus' ministry. your "true believers" and "speaking directly to us" reaks of calvinism or reconstructionism.
. . .
shoot, gotta run
U&U
Quote: "shoot, gotta run"
Okay, will be happy to take some well aimed shots, but you had better run fast to dodge these, lol.
Yes for the most part I agree with Calvinism, at least 3.5 points anyhow. BUT I am NOT giving you Calvinist's quotes, I am ONLY giving you Scripture that says it very PLAIN. So your disagreement is with Holy Scripture, not with Calvinists.
John 6:64-66 (NKJV)
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
See it is God who said it, NOT JOHN CALVIN. Jesus KNEW many that followed Him entered the wrong Gate and were following Him for the WRONG REASON. HE KNEW AHEAD OF TIME THAT MANY FOLLOWING HIME WERE NOT TRUE BELIEVERS AND THAT INCLUDED JUDAS, THE ONE WHO WOULD BETRAY HIM. They that left did not lose their Salvation, THEY NEVER HAD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. They were NEVER True Believers.
2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
John 17:12 (NKJV)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
See it "NONE OF THEM" that left could have been True Believers.
John 10:27-30 (NKJV)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one."
Those who are True Believers hear His voice and Follow HIM. Those who left were NEVER True Believers, they just wanted to see HIS MIRACLES, and when they figured they had saw enough, or when they figured they might have to get involved and do something, they left.
John 14:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Head knowledge about who Jesus is, does not SAVE, even the Demons acknowledge who Jesus is. It is an inner personal LOVE realationship with Jesus as LORD and Master, that SAVES.
Matthew 8:28-29 (NKJV)
28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.
29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
NOW IT IS OBVIOUS that the Demons recognized who Jesus was and acknowledged it, and even fell down at His feet, worshiping Him as Lord. BUT THAT DID NOT SAVE THEM, and they knew their destiny was to be Tormented in Hell. YET, you want to believe that if a man did what the Demons did, he will be saved? To coin a phrase, "That does not compute." The inmates I worked with had a name for that phony "no walking the walk" kind faith, they called it: "Jail-House Religion".
Mark 5:1-9 (NKJV)
1 Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains,
4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.
6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.
7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me."
Luke 8:28-30 (NKJV)
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!"
29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.
30 Jesus asked him, saying, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," because many demons had entered him.
8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
9 Then He asked him, "What is your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many."
James 2:19-20 (NKJV)
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
SO IT IS much more than acknowledging the gospel is true and that Jesus is the Son of God. IT IS AN INNER PERSONAL LOVE RELATIONSHIP, with Jesus as Lord and Master.
Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you ; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
"I never knew you" , is a reference to the lack of an Inner Personal LOVE relationship with Jesus as LORD and Master.
1 John 3:10 (NKJV)
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
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Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/27/2008 6:49:25 AM
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facedown
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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mushead
the percentages were 'made-up' and i hope they didn't come across any differently. secondly finding (1) (even multiple) "proclamation" does suggest "evidence" of anything. i'm sure if someone presented a passage from scripture and said "here it is", but you knew it was taken out of context and misinterpreted in relation to scripture as a whole, you would not welcome the argument "i found one (even multiple) passages that make this proclamation, therefore it must be true".
thirdly, talk of suffering does not demand "penal substitution".
quote:
The Lord, though he was God, became man. He suffered for the sake of whose who suffer, he was bound for those in bonds, condemned for the guilty, buried for those who lie in the grave; but he rose from the dead, and cried aloud: "Who will contend with me? Let him confront me." I have freed the condemned, brought the dead back to life, raised men from their graves. Who has anything to say against me? I, he said, am the Christ; I have destroyed death, triumphed over the enemy, trampled hell underfoot, bound the strong one, and taken men up to the heights of heaven: I am the Christ.” --From a letter by Saint Melito.
quote:
For if man, who had been created by God that he might live, after losing life, through being injured by the serpent that had corrupted him, should not any more return to life, but should be utterly [and for ever] abandoned to death, God would [in that case] have been conquered, and the wickedness of the serpent would have prevailed over the will of God. But inasmuch as God is invincible and long-suffering, He did indeed show Himself to be long-suffering in the matter of the correction of man and the probation of all, as I have already observed; and by means of the second man did He bind the strong man, and spoiled his goods, and abolished death, vivifying that man who had been in a state of death. For at the first Adam became a vessel in his (Satan’s) possession, whom he did also hold under his power, that is, by bringing sin on him iniquitously, and under color of immortality entailing death upon him. For, while promising that they should be as gods, which was in no way possible for him to be, he wrought death in them: wherefore he who had led man captive, was justly captured in his turn by God; but man, who had been led captive, was loosed from the bonds of condemnation.
St. Ireneus, “Against the Heresies,”
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Death passes over those who have eaten Him and smeared His blood on the doorpost of our mouth. St. John Chrysostom
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I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.
How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my clothing will accuse me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul and save me.
Loving Master, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these holy Gifts be to my condemnation because of my unworthiness, but for the cleansing and sanctification of soul and body and the pledge of the future life and kingdom. It is good for me to cling to God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation.
Receive me today, Son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not reveal Your mystery to Your adversaries. Nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas. But as the thief I confess to You: Lord, remember me in Your kingdom.
-Divine Liturgy
unread by most of us, for certain. by surely read by the eastern church, and who can argue much easier than i can, that views on atoenemnt that are most prominant are - christus victor, and ransom.
quote:
participation as a disciple of Jesus requires, to some degree, mental assent. "some degree"? to what degree? note, i may not disagree with this statement, but would enjoy seeing what exactly this degree is.
the "serpent on the pole" is about healing, not penal substitutionary musings.
matthew 3:2 is john the baptist. and one sentence is hardly anything to expound upon.
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/27/2008 6:59:54 AM
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facedown
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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VCO
quote:
I am ONLY giving you Scripture that says it very PLAIN. So your disagreement is with Holy Scripture
i love this argument.
again, how can you possibly argue anything from john chapter 6 without also arguing what and why people were offended, departing, etc? how? because you too (unless i'm wrong) also are offended by the teaching and depart from it. here - lets look a little closer:
"How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me
so, do you take a "PLAIN" understanding or do you...(thinking of your argument) "disagree with holy scripture"?
quote:
they just wanted to see HIS MIRACLES, and when they figured they had saw enough, or when they figured they might have to get involved and do something, they left. great, but the original question was: is jesus speaking to the people he was actually speaking to or not? the question dealt with jesus' very first recorded message. i don't see how your lengthy discourse over these mutliple passages affirms your argument that jesus was in fact not speaking to the people he met there that day.
and how does that play into a "PLAIN" reading of scripture? indeed, your argument seems to make things so very complicated, doesn't it?
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/27/2008 7:49:47 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
great, but the original question was: is jesus speaking to the people he was actually speaking to or not? the question dealt with jesus' very first recorded message. i don't see how your lengthy discourse over these mutliple passages affirms your argument that jesus was in fact not speaking to the people he met there that day.
and how does that play into a "PLAIN" reading of scripture? indeed, your argument seems to make things so very complicated, doesn't it?
Yes he was talking to religious people on top of that. It's kind a scary isn't that all of what he said was to anybody who was religious in that day? Except where the story is told of him being on the wrong side of the river.
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/27/2008 9:15:26 PM
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VCO
Posts: 110
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
VCO
quote:
I am ONLY giving you Scripture that says it very PLAIN. So your disagreement is with Holy Scripture
i love this argument.
again, how can you possibly argue anything from john chapter 6 without also arguing what and why people were offended, departing, etc? how? because you too (unless i'm wrong) also are offended by the teaching and depart from it. here - lets look a little closer:
"How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me
so, do you take a "PLAIN" understanding or do you...(thinking of your argument) "disagree with holy scripture"?
. . .
U&U
NOT HARDLY! But you just offered up more proof that NONE of those that left were True Believers, or they would have had the spiritual discernment to understand what He was teaching.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NASB)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
You see ALL True Believers are born again, and it is the Holy Spirit that gives their living spirit understanding, whereas unbelievers who claim to be followers of Christ, think a lot of what Jesus taught is foolishness, because their spirit is still DEAD.
Romans 8:9-10 (NIV)
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Colossians 2:13 (NIV)
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
John 3:3 (NIV)
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
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U&U
NOW it is my turn to ask you questions:
1. Do you believe the Bible is ALL inspired by God?
2. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?
3. Do you believe in the incarnation, that Jesus is part of God Himself in the Flesh?
4. Do you believe that man is a sinful being, and must repent and receive Jesus as LORD and Master, or he will answer for his own sins?
5. Do you believe that HELL is REAL and an Eternal Punishment, that all unbelievers and psuedo christians, will have a part in?
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Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/28/2008 11:05:18 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 538
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
unread by most of us, for certain. by surely read by the eastern church, and who can argue much easier than i can, that views on atoenemnt that are most prominant are - christus victor, and ransom.
facedown,
I don't have much time to respond today, but will reply to the rest of your post tomorrow.
Yes, I agree that the EOC rejects the concept of penal substitution, but that doesn't mean they are correct.
1-I can peruse early church writings and find an example of virtually every doctrine anyone can imagine - both biblical and heretical. You don't prove anything by finding examples of people talking about other atonement theories, because we all know that the first and second century (like all other periods ) had an abundance of false teachings and teachers. My purpose for quoting patristic writings was very specific: to prove that penal substitutionary atonement is not a recent doctrinal invention; I did not post the quotes to prove that penal substitution is true.
2-A few of the quotes you provided don't necessarily deny penal substitutionary atonement...do they?
quote:
thirdly, talk of suffering does not demand "penal substitution".
No, talk of suffering does not demand penal substitution, but the Bible is far more specific about why Jesus suffered, and that does demand "penal subsitution." I don't expect you to take my word for it, so I'll demonstrate it to you:
quote:
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:5,6
"He was crushed for our iniquities" clearly states that the Messiah would suffer injury for our iniquities (sin).
"...the punishmentthat brought us peace was upon Him..." clearly states that the injury the Messiah would suffer was punishment for our sins. Punishment is penal...therefore punishment for our sins is "penal substitution."
Isaiah 53 is just one such prophecy that tells us what the Messiah would do. This is the context that undergirds everything Jesus said about redemption and salvation. It is the context that informed the statements that Jesus made to Nicodemus about the serpent on the pole; or when He told the Apostles, "When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself."
quote:
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 1Peter 2:24
The same penal substitution is taught by Peter.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree" unambiguously teaches that He bore the punishment for our sins.
One final point: "penal substitutionary atonement" is the only atonement.
quote:
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.Ephesians 1:7,8
In this passage "redemption" and "the forgiveness of sins" is synonymous.
quote:
11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption...15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 9:11-15
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Hebrews 9:27,28
There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. Romans 3:22b-24
The "new covenant", "promised eternal inheritance", "set them free from the sins committed...", justification, grace, redemption, and atonement, are all synonymous with "eternal redemption." The whole point of Jesus' sacrifice, and the whole point of the new covenant is this eternal redemption that is synonymous with a salvation that is synonymous with atonement.
There are no other forms of salvation; no other redemptions; no other covenants; and certainly no other atonements. So, it doesn't matter what the EOC or anyone else teaches; for anyone that rejects penal substitutionary atonement is rejecting God's message.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/30/2008 5:51:58 AM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/28/2008 11:42:21 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 538
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” John 53-63
facedown,
There are two interpretations of this passage.
1-We must partake of the Lord's table (otherwise known as the Eucharist) in order to receive God's grace through Jesus.
2-Jesus' reference to "real food and real drink" meant that His sacrifice involved His real body being broken and His real blood being spilled. However, our consuming this very real sacrifice is done spiritually.
Which interpretation is correct? The answer is found in the hermenuetical practice of interpreting difficult passages of Scripture with passages that are more clear in their meaning. The rest of the NT, and Jesus' teachings as well, tell us that we receive the gift of grace through Jesus by trusting (believing) Him. So the latter interpretation is correct.
I don't think God is going to disqualify someone who believes the first interpretation because they are still trusting in Jesus' sacrifice for their redemption. It is hard to imagine that a God who sacrificed His own Son to provide redemption is going to condemn someone on a technicality. I think God has demonstrated that His desire is to save people, not condemn them. So, technicalities and loopholes are not going to be exercised at the final judgment...at least that is how I see it. That said, John 6 does reveal that anyone who rejects Jesus' method of atonement is in peril.
In conclusion: I don't think that VCO has said anything that rises to the level of disbelief in the message of John 6.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/28/2008 11:49:34 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/29/2008 2:37:37 AM
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VCO
Posts: 110
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Yes he was talking to religious people on top of that. It's kind a scary isn't that all of what he said was to anybody who was religious in that day? Except where the story is told of him being on the wrong side of the river.
U&U
AND being Religious does not make one a True Believer. He turned and said to some of the most Religious people of His day:
John 8:43-47 (GW)
43 Why don't you understand the language I use? Is it because you can't understand the words I use? 44 You come from your father, the devil, and you desire to do what your father wants you to do. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. He has never been truthful. He doesn't know what the truth is. Whenever he tells a lie, he's doing what comes naturally to him. He's a liar and the father of lies. 45 So you don't believe Me because I tell the truth. 46 Can any of you convict me of committing a sin? If I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe Me? 47 The person who belongs to God understands what God says. You don't understand because you don't belong to God.”
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Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: The Emerging Church-Good or Bad? - 3/31/2008 7:21:35 AM
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facedown
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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mushead
indeed, much can be argued from early church writings, including scripture. i assume you don't believe the church fathers to be full of false teachings? and you have not proven that penal substitution was embraced in that particular period of time. as to your point 2, they may not; however, and again, you cannot take the notion of substitution and believe that penal automatically pops up behind it.
isaiah53:4-6 is most often the "proof-text" for penal substitution. but lets look a little closer. what we see just prior is the servant himself will be the one who leads god's people back from exile. the sevant of god who is coming to bring restoration and salvation takes teh 'kholiy' and 'makobah' (infirmities and sorrows) upon himself. these wounds and sufferings are to be healed and reconcilled, and it is the servant of god who takes these upon himself, it is he who restores saves, and brings peace.
how has this happened? matthew says that this verse is fulfileld in jesus' healing of the sick who were brought to him, and in his defeat of demonic powers:
quote:
When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
"He took up our infirmities
and carried our diseases."
jesus sees everything that is wrong and broken about humanity and turns it back to god in restoration. jesus takes infirmity into his own person, and even subjection to death (phil 2:6-11). paul makes a direct connection between this servanthood, subjection to death, and vinidcation, which is the key to understanding isaiah 53. and this brings about healing to humanity. he drives out the enemy and makes known his rule with the kingdom of | | |
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