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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/3/2008 11:48:02 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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bufo, to add a little perspective:
blaspheme is pretty big an issue. if a God fearing person sees blaspheming, what could be bigger than that? how can one trump or equal the issue of blaspheming?
that is why the psychology of tolle's book shrinks to insignificance in this discussion, because blaspheming is HUGE.
the sacred God that calls himself the "I AM" has been defrocked in tolle's work.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/4/2008 3:23:25 AM
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bufo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
bufo, to add a little perspective:
blaspheme is pretty big an issue. if a God fearing person sees blaspheming, what could be bigger than that? how can one trump or equal the issue of blaspheming?
that is why the psychology of tolle's book shrinks to insignificance in this discussion, because blaspheming is HUGE.
the sacred God that calls himself the "I AM" has been defrocked in tolle's work.
You ask: "What could be bigger than that? how can one trump or eaqual the issue blaspheming?" By not being quick to judge, by respecting and communicating with the blasphemer in love, which might include not pasting a perjorative on them that accuses them of disrespect when there is the possibility that no disrespect is intended.. Those are just some suggestions.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/4/2008 3:35:44 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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calling who a blasphemer?
are we still talking of jmjphe?
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/4/2008 4:27:54 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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bufo, the funny thing here is that i am the one that wouldn't judge the intentions of stampinlady, but you did.
when i spoke of blaspheming as trumping something i was not at all saying it trumps good behavior or anything like that. i specifically compared it to the psychology in tolle's book. said that it shrunk in importance next to the issue of how God was impiously treated.
my assertions of blaspheming is toward tolle only. it's not a judgment of tolle the man but of his words and work. it's an academic assessment.
certainly blaspheme can be a pejorative, but it is not always. it fits here as a description of what tolle does to Jesus. tolle defrocks Jesus. Jesus is not God in tolle's work. he's been demoted. he's been de-sacreded. blasphemed.
God is not even a person in tolle's work. the "Divine" is a spritual energy, state of being that is all of us etc. God has been written out of the picture. that can't possibly be construed as a reverent or pious attitude toward God. God is given no acknowledment or honor by tolle. strictly and academically speaking, that's a blasphemous position toward God. it's not disrespectful to state such a thing. if i am hateful and wish harm toward someone that i think is blaspheming, that would be wrong.
tolle speaks often of Jesus and quotes him. tolle teaches spirituality. certainly his book can be assessed by biblical standards by those that use the bible as a standard.
i don't know tolle the man, i don't know his character and i don't know if his denial of God will continue forever. i wish him no harm. neither do i see any reason not to critique his book from a specific christian POV.
blas·pheme (blăs-fēm', blăs'fēm')
v., -phemed, -phem·ing, -phemes.
v.tr.
To speak of (God or a sacred entity) in an irreverent, impious manner.
To revile; execrate.
< Message edited by mrsdash -- 5/4/2008 4:37:51 AM >
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/5/2008 12:41:25 AM
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bufo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
bufo, the funny thing here is that i am the one that wouldn't judge the intentions of stampinlady, but you did.
when i spoke of blaspheming as trumping something i was not at all saying it trumps good behavior or anything like that. i specifically compared it to the psychology in tolle's book. said that it shrunk in importance next to the issue of how God was impiously treated.
my assertions of blaspheming is toward tolle only. it's not a judgment of tolle the man but of his words and work. it's an academic assessment.
certainly blaspheme can be a pejorative, but it is not always. it fits here as a description of what tolle does to Jesus. tolle defrocks Jesus. Jesus is not God in tolle's work. he's been demoted. he's been de-sacreded. blasphemed.
God is not even a person in tolle's work. the "Divine" is a spritual energy, state of being that is all of us etc. God has been written out of the picture. that can't possibly be construed as a reverent or As pious attitude toward God. God is given no acknowledment or honor by tolle. strictly and academically speaking, that's a blasphemous position toward God. it's not disrespectful to state such a thing. if i am hateful and wish harm toward someone that i think is blaspheming, that would be wrong.
tolle speaks often of Jesus and quotes him. tolle teaches spirituality. certainly his book can be assessed by biblical standards by those that use the bible as a standard.
i don't know tolle the man, i don't know his character and i don't know if his denial of God will continue forever. i wish him no harm. neither do i see any reason not to critique his book from a specific christian POV.
blas·pheme (blăs-fēm', blăs'fēm')
v., -phemed, -phem·ing, -phemes.
v.tr.
To speak of (God or a sacred entity) in an irreverent, impious manner.
To revile; execrate.
I think you start your post with a statement that I think may be a bit unfair:
"bufo, the funny thing here is that i am the one that wouldn't judge the intentions of stampinlady, but you did."
What I said to Stampinlady (in full, emphasis added) was:
"Stampinlady. I thought the post by jmjphe was intelligent, fairminded and offered in good faith and gave ample evidence of his/her Christian faith. Furthermore it was his/her first post. You however quoted only a small portion of jmjphe's post which seemed to distort the context and uttered a brief condescending sentence that sounded very dismissive. Is this what you intended? Did I read it incorrectly?
Therefore, with the inartful exception of declaring the statement "condescending" (for which I take responsiblilty as a judgement, the rest used the phrases "seemed to" and "sounded" as opposed to definite conclusory judgements. This was intentional and was intended to state my perception while allowing room to be corrected. It ended with two questions. The first asking if my perception reflected her intent. The other asked expressly if my perception was in error. On the scale of "judgements". my post, while pointed, appears to be largely a statement of perception and a request of more information while acknowledging possible error on my part.
Regarding your view of "blasphemy": It appears that you take a very narrow, perhaps technical view of the term, divorcing it from its stronger connotations and restricting it to a narrow academic usage. That is fine except, I suspect most lay people would understand something a bit different from the term. The way you use it, you have labeled the majority of the earth's inhabitants as "blasphemers", which is again fine but probably a usage that is even a minority view in the Christian community.
Impious: lacking in reverence or proper respect. [perhaps. It's a stretch though. One should be entitled to state one's view of reality I suppose, if done civilly and respectfully, even if it differs theologically.]
Irreverent: lacking proper respect or seriousness. [Again, possibly. Certainly there is no lack of seriousness.]
Exercrate:
1. To declare to be hateful or abhorrent; denounce.
2. To feel loathing for; abhor.
3. Archaic To invoke a curse on.
[Certainly this did not take place.]
Revile: To assail with abusive language; vituperate. [Again, this did not take place.]
Thank you for sharing your views. I suspect that I should leave you alone for awhile.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/5/2008 2:22:44 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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we were discussing a book on spirituality, no? the academic use of blaspheme seems more than appropriate. frankly from our earlier pleasant and detailed conversation, i expected you to understand the academic use of the word. i did not expect you to see it as inciteful.
the bottom line is, tolle frequently in his book de-sacredizes Jesus. tolle takes a term that is sacred and exclusive to God and calls it common to all (I am). tolle claims that Jesus himself was talking tolles language.
blaspheme is a strong word. i meant for the strength of it to come through but i am not speaking to character, i am speaking to the literal treatment of Jesus and God Almighty by tolle. the term blaspheme fits 100%. even the most civil expression of calling what's sacred, NOT sacred is blaspheme.
i thought perhaps that it would help you to see why tolle's work is taken so seriously as error. (by christians) i did not expect to influence you opinion to be like mine, but i did think you would understand the POV. like i said, your strong reaction was not expected.
i do understand. the word is powerful. it's not considered to be a benign act, blaspheming. but if one is going to demote the most sacred figure in history and the Almighty God himself, one must be willing to accept that the term blaspheme is correctly applied to such a thing.
tolle doesn't answer to me. i don't feel any need to set him straight. but he is writing and teaching and i absolutely have a right to write and teach the other side.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/5/2008 7:20:57 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Both of your assumptions that we are not Christian bothers me. There is no conflict between this book and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Please, if you believe there to be conflict, I would love for you to site where exactly Jesus spoke that contradicts this.
this is one of Oprah's threads, people need to hear why!
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/5/2008 9:57:13 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
My Thoughts on it thus far.
Well I think the gist of the book from what i read is brilliant. I think the author is extremely intelligent and is very good at explaning the workings of the human mind. As human beings we all are born as spritual beings(we have a soul), not just a physical body with a brain, which tends to be a complex system of electrical pulses, Tolle explains this much better than i do. In short he went on a sort of journey of knowledge to conquor that which is the human mind. Spiritual Masters as they are reffered to, have concluded for many many years that there is this "invisible" aspect of life that transends beyond logical thinking of the brain which tolle refers to as "I am", "being" "essence" etc. The whole point is to place an inividual into this state where the mind is quiet, and they simply are just "being" in a place where there is no time, or thinking, or "drawing our very indentity, from the contents of our mind", and that the mind is fully alert. In short its a state where you control your mind and your mind doesnt control you.
This is what I was referring to when I said that a study on the Holy Spirit would be a good idea instead of studying the writtings of an unbeliever.
I'm sorry if you feel my post was out of context, but for a believer to call this brilliant is mindblowing. Erwin Lutzer of Moody Bible church has a great sermon onf this as well as Nancy Leigh DeMoss on her web site.
It is blasphemey.
< Message edited by stampinlady -- 5/5/2008 10:04:33 PM >
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/6/2008 6:18:23 PM
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earthless
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My pastor did part two of his series on Oprah and Tolle's New Age teachings this past Sunday morning. It is the second part of the video I shared a week ago.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/7/2008 1:47:57 AM
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bufo
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Mrs. Dash: Thank you for your reply. Tolle is not a Christian, thus anything he says on any religious matter would be blasphemy in the sense you mean it. I took that as a starting point. It is a truism. That is why I was questioning your use of the term. I do not need to be educated as to how many conservative Christians would regard tolle's work.
Secondly, of late we were actually talking about Stampinlady's response which I questioned. I thought she appeared disrespectful to jpjmhe, primarily because to me, a Non-christian, jpjmhe seemed like he went out of his way to point out that JPJmhe was Christian, that tolle was not and had the doctrine all wrong and finally that a Christian would do well to study the bible instead and then went on to recommend bible-based books on psychology as better for people than tolle's book.
Now please take a look at stampelady's recent post in which she says in pertinent part:
"I'm sorry if you feel my post was out of context, but for a believer to call this brilliant is mindblowing. Erwin Lutzer of Moody Bible church has a great sermon onf this as well as Nancy Leigh DeMoss on her web site.
It is blasphemey."
Stampinlady may not be directly calling jpjmhe, a self-proclaimed Christian, a "blasphemer", but she comes pretty close. Rather than engaging him/her in any sort of dialogue, just as before, she appeared to just make a proclaimation which appears sort of abrupt and dismissive leaving little room for discussion and moves on. That was the basis of my questioning her intent. Jpjmhe has not returned I believe. Why should he/she?
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/7/2008 9:32:37 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
leaving little room for discussion and moves on.
Bufo, I'm not great at wording my thoughts so I tend to not post long posts Anyone whos give the glory to anything but God is a blasphemer. Anyone who denys the Holy Spirit is a blasphemer. Tolle does this. Oprah does this and they are both blasphemers. If Jp believes what is being taught by both of these blasphemers then I would question where Jp sits on the "belief" spectrum. Take it for what it's worth. I'm not a good debator nor do I like to argue, but I will post the Truth.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/7/2008 11:33:31 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bufo
Why should he/she?
Take their ball and go home? Boo hoo hoo.. I guess I just have thicker skin than most.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/8/2008 11:37:28 PM
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bufo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
leaving little room for discussion and moves on.
Bufo, I'm not great at wording my thoughts so I tend to not post long posts Anyone whos give the glory to anything but God is a blasphemer. Anyone who denys the Holy Spirit is a blasphemer. Tolle does this. Oprah does this and they are both blasphemers. If Jp believes what is being taught by both of these blasphemers then I would question where Jp sits on the "belief" spectrum. Take it for what it's worth. I'm not a good debator nor do I like to argue, but I will post the Truth.
I wasn't quarreling with your ability to word your thoughts. I don't care if you are a good debater or not. I think it is good that you don't like to argue. You said: "If Jp believes what is being taught by both of these blasphemers then I would question where Jp sits on the "belief" spectrum." My only point was that I don't think you read carefully what JP said and as a result you appeared to be rude. I think JP clearly said that he did not believe what tolle taught about Jesus. JP did say that tolle was good at describing the mind's thinking process but that JP disagreed with tolle's spiritual views. JP then recommended the bible and Christian thought instead of tolles. Leaping to conclusions and being rude has nothing to do with ability to debate etc or arguing or whatever. It has to do with making snap judgements and being rude. Sorry if I am rude in attempting to point this out. Thank you for replying to my criticism, that takes some courage. Take care.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 5/8/2008 11:42:48 PM
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bufo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: bufo
Why should he/she?
Take their ball and go home? Boo hoo hoo.. I guess I just have thicker skin than most.
That's the spirit.
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