So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (Full Version)

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ImBornAgain -> So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/4/2008 5:28:16 PM)

We must understand the sanctification process. Sanctification is not a process of ridding us from sins, it is a process of growing in love with God, and it is a process of transferring our love from our selfishness to loving God only. When we love our selfishness we will sin. When we love God we will not sin against Him. If anyone is still sinning, it is out of him/her loving themselves instead of God. When a person loves God with ALL their heart, soul, and mind, they will not sin. Sin cannot come from a heart that totally loves God. When we are given a new heart from God, it is only filled with His love and no sin can come out of a heart filled with His love.

So what most people are really saying is that no one can do the first commandment that Jesus gave, which is:

Matt 22:37-39 - Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

What a defeating message these people are giving. If we can't do this first commandment through Jesus Christ living in us, we then can say that God sending the Holy Spirit to reside in us has no value. It is only after we are doing this first commandment that we can do Jesus’ second commandment.

Matt 22:39-40 - And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Jesus came and sent His Holy Spirit to free us from the bondage of sin and people are telling everybody we will never be free from the bondage of sin. If you are one of these people, take a real good look at what you are proclaiming. Is it the real Gospel or your gospel?



LBolt -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/5/2008 2:18:27 PM)

Sanctifation is the process of being set apart for God. I John tells us that if we say we have no sin we are a liar...that if we confess our sin He is faithful and just...

Peter & John, especially Peter, in Galations was confronted with an issue sin by Paul. Even after Christ dealt with Him in Acts through the vision. Even when He walk with the Master during His earthly ministry we see him make mistakes. We all know that Peter loved the LORD immensely, yet He failed miserably. Same with David. I agree with your statement we are free from the bondage of sin.

However, we aren't free from the sinful proclivities. If you are, please tell me your secret! I'm sure all of Christiandom before, during and after Christ advent would like to know your secret! Paul wrote in Romans 7, points this out clearly.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body F27 of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I know there has been much discussion as to when this toke in Paul life but I know a lot of believers who can identify with this. What I've found, is that I experience His grace powerfully after I've failed and I go to Him to restore me.
I'm not condoning a defeated mentality or another "gospel", I just like to keep it balanced.

I've seen people, including myself, feel like we just don't measure up because of failures and weakeness' of the flesh. They've stopped striving altogether. I would think that the more one matures in Christ the more he display godlike attributes.

This passage is quite powerful, Paul wrote this toward the end of his earthly ministry before he was martyred: 1 Timothy 1:12-17
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/5/2008 8:09:57 PM)

quote:

I would think that the more one matures in Christ the more he display godlike attributes.


Very true, and yet, the more he matures in Christ, the more he realizes that he falls short of true Christ-like perfection. He realizes that he doesn't literally love God with ALL of his heart and ALL of his soul and ALL of his mind 24 hours a day, 7 days a week without ceasing, and he grows in awareness that he falls short of literally loving ALL of his neighbors as much as he loves himself 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, without ceasing. Mother Theresa gave up her material possessions so she could devote her life to showing love to the poorest of the poor. I suspect that she would be the first to admit that even her love for her neighbor was not perfect; yet how many of us come close to what she did?



ImBornAgain -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/5/2008 9:54:01 PM)

quote:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body F27 of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


LBolt,

I suggest you take a real close look at God's Word concerning the scriptures in your quote above. If you study God's Word closely and ask for the Spirit's leading on this subject you are talking about concerning this scripture in Romans 7, God will bring you to a different understanding of Romans 7. I am not the one to tell you about this scripture, but God's Spirit is.

God Bless



LBolt -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/6/2008 11:27:36 AM)

Just curious, do you ever or have you ever sinned after your salvation? What about recently? Using the 10 Commandments as our guide, any NT scriptures such as walking in the fruit of the Spirit. Have you ever had to go to someone and ask them for forgiveness?

BTW, I read those scriptures numerous times. I don't get that I'll "never do anything wrong now that I'm saved" out off those scriptures.

Just so you know, I'm a Christian who attends a Messianic congregation. We observe Torah, keep Sabbath, celebrate the Feast of YHWH including the dietary laws spoken in Torah. We don't celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween...because we believe along with scripture that they are an abomination before YHWH.

I'm only saying this so that you have a frame of reference of who you are talking to not to throw up my denominational affiliation. I find however, that we all think through prisms especially through church affiliation.



Sammy_S -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/21/2008 4:59:19 PM)

In short Sanctification is a growing Love for God and a growing hatred for sin.

EDIT:and True believers will bear fruit because of that.



drmark -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/23/2008 6:20:47 PM)

quote:

I John tells us that if we say we have no sin we are a liar...that if we confess our sin He is faithful and just...
I John also tells us that the Blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin (1:7) and all unrighteousness (1:9). John wrote his letter so we will not sin (2:1). If we obey His Word, God's Love is made complete in us (2:5) and we must walk as Jesus did (2:6). If we love each other, there is nothing in us to make us stumble (2:10). Everyone who does what is right has been born of God (2:29). No one who knows Christ and is born of God continues to sin (3:6 and 3:9). Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows Him (4:7). Love is made comlete among us, because in this world, we are like Jesus (4:17). Anyone born of God does not continue to sin (5:18).

Sorry, LBolt, I John is not the Book of the Bible you want to use to identify a sinning religion!!

quote:

However, we aren't free from the sinful proclivities. If you are, please tell me your secret! I'm sure all of Christiandom before, during and after Christ advent would like to know your secret! Paul wrote in Romans 7, points this out clearly.
It's really pretty simple, no secret at all - in fact, why are you stopping at Romans 7? Romans 8 states that God condemned sin so that we do not live according to the sinful nature (v 3-4). When we live according to the Spirit, our minds are no longer set on our sinful nature (v 5). When we are controlled by the Spirit, we are alive in His righteousness (v 9-10). We receive the Spirit of God so that we can be children of God, not a slave to our sinful nature (v 14-15). Sounds like freedom from "sinful proclivities" to me!



LBolt -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/27/2008 1:50:27 PM)

I do not believe in a sinning ministry. I agree with your post for the most part. I've just never met anybody who has never screwed up since being saved. If you can post me back and say you have never messed up in thought, word or deed, please do so, so I can have the pleasure of calling you a big fat liar!


quote:

In short Sanctification is a growing Love for God and a growing hatred for sin.


Amen! Drmark I'm not completely refuting you, I just know that we are still in this flesh and will need the grace of God through the power of the Holy Spirit to walk His walk.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/27/2008 7:26:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImBornAgain

We must understand the sanctification process. Sanctification is not a process of ridding us from sins, it is a process of growing in love with God, and it is a process of transferring our love from our selfishness to loving God only. When we love our selfishness we will sin. When we love God we will not sin against Him. If anyone is still sinning, it is out of him/her loving themselves instead of God. When a person loves God with ALL their heart, soul, and mind, they will not sin. Sin cannot come from a heart that totally loves God. When we are given a new heart from God, it is only filled with His love and no sin can come out of a heart filled with His love.

So what most people are really saying is that no one can do the first commandment that Jesus gave, which is:

Matt 22:37-39 - Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

What a defeating message these people are giving. If we can't do this first commandment through Jesus Christ living in us, we then can say that God sending the Holy Spirit to reside in us has no value. It is only after we are doing this first commandment that we can do Jesus’ second commandment.

Matt 22:39-40 - And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Jesus came and sent His Holy Spirit to free us from the bondage of sin and people are telling everybody we will never be free from the bondage of sin. If you are one of these people, take a real good look at what you are proclaiming. Is it the real Gospel or your gospel?


I feel like saying, "Take a real good look at what you are proclaiming. Is it the real Gospel or your gospel?" But I don't think that's a very nice way to approach people I disagree with.

What is SANCTIFICATION?
It is God's gracious and powerful work of making sinners holy in heart and conduct through the internal ministry of the Holy Spirit, applying the death and resurrection of Christ to them, so that they increasingly die to sin and live unto righteousness in the whole man.

When will the Holy Spirit complete His work in the believer?

Westminster Confession XII They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created within them, are further sanctified really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and then more and more quickened and strengthened, in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

In which war, although the remaining corruption may for a time must prevail, yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
http://members.aol.com/mjsawyer/reformed.html

No one correctly tells people they will never be free from sin. There is no sin in heaven. If you and I disagree about the time that God completes His work, does that upset you?



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/27/2008 7:31:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy_S

In short Sanctification is a growing Love for God and a growing hatred for sin.

EDIT:and True believers will bear fruit because of that.


Amen!



LBolt -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/29/2008 11:24:50 AM)

I agree, Amen!



drmark -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/30/2008 9:11:44 AM)

quote:

No one correctly tells people they will never be free from sin.
No one who holds to the Westminster Confession, that is. [8|]

There are others, myself included, who take God at His Word! (see post #7)



LBolt -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/30/2008 3:50:02 PM)

Drmark,

Have you sinned since you've been saved or since you've learned about what you posted?



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (3/31/2008 11:00:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

No one correctly tells people they will never be free from sin.
No one who holds to the Westminster Confession, that is. [8|]

There are others, myself included, who take God at His Word! (see post #7)



Don't be so quick to disagree with me that you don't read my post.

No one correctly tells people they will never be free from sin.

Do you believe that God glorifies the unsanctified? I don't.



drmark -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/2/2008 6:11:37 PM)

quote:

Have you sinned since you've been saved or since you've learned about what you posted?
Just because a Believer has been cleansed of her/his sinful nature does not mean that s/he can never sin again. You are confusing sinless perfection with perfect sinlessness. That happens quite often on these Theology threads, I've seen!

quote:

No one correctly tells people they will never be free from sin.
I'm sorry, Eph4_32, perhaps your use of a double-negative is confusing me. I believe that it is correct to tell people they can be free from sin in this life. There is Scriptural, traditional, experiential, and rational support for this belief. When we love God with all our being, then we are free from sin. It's as simple as that!



LBolt -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/3/2008 10:40:41 AM)

I understand your stance.
quote:

There is Scriptural, traditional, experiential, and rational support for this belief.


Outside of Jesus, I just never met such a person and if one claim that he/she was sinless or never failed, I would call them a liar and arrogant.



drmark -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/3/2008 2:41:05 PM)

How long can you go without sinning, LBolt? Are you not sinless during that time period?



Sammy_S -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/5/2008 1:24:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

How long can you go without sinning, LBolt? Are you not sinless during that time period?


Man is always sinning.Every second that my mind is not on the Lord is enough for me to be sent to the deepest part of hell,thank God for his grace.



drmark -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/6/2008 9:08:44 AM)

quote:

Man is always sinning.
Then how do you understand 1 John 3:4-10? According to you, Sammy, we are all children of Satan according to your (incorrect) theology!



Gloryandgrace -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/6/2008 11:17:59 PM)

Weve seen this all before, its nothing more than a "Im better than you gloating".

Hey if someone wants to say they dont sin anymore, fine, Im sure God knows the truth and the rest of the world will see the truth in the end.

With true Christians they dont sit around saying "Im not sinning anymore", in fact what they do is glory in God that they bore fruit or that they added virtues to their life through Gods grace.
But as with all true Christians they look back on their good works and see flaws, some slight, some drastic but they see where improvements in their own character can be made. They dont have to commit overt sin or scandalize themselves to know that some sins hide themselves deeply within their acts of faith and good works.

Ive yet to see any sinless Christians, I dont know a one that doesnt still have to fight against some temptations and fail. I know that Christ fought temptations until the end of his life. DrMark and Mike seem to have outdone Jesus Himself.

IN fact the only place Ive met sinless Christians is on the internet posting boards. Hummmmm

John



Gloryandgrace -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/6/2008 11:22:07 PM)

Did I hear groucho Marks say " I never sinned until I did", but then he said "But was it a sin that I did?

John



Mannamuncher -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/6/2008 11:29:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace


Ive yet to see any sinless Christians, I dont know a one that doesnt still have to fight against some temptations and fail. I know that Christ fought temptations until the end of his life. DrMark and Mike seem to have outdone Jesus Himself.

IN fact the only place Ive met sinless Christians is on the internet posting boards. Hummmmm

John


.......and TBN !!! [;)]



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/7/2008 6:53:41 AM)

When we are sinless, we will be with Christ and like Christ.

2 Corinthians 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

1 John 3
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

2 Corinthians 5
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.



drmark -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/7/2008 3:22:42 PM)

quote:

Weve seen this all before, its nothing more than a "Im better than you gloating".
I see you have no reasoned response to the 11 verses I posted from 1 John in #7 above. It's a shame that such important doctrine is rejected with a flippant "my theology is better than your theology" excuse!

quote:

With true Christians they dont sit around saying "Im not sinning anymore",
The Apostle John says that true Christians don't sit around claiming they sin every moment.

quote:

Ive yet to see any sinless Christians, I dont know a one that doesnt still have to fight against some temptations and fail. I know that Christ fought temptations until the end of his life. DrMark and Mike seem to have outdone Jesus Himself.
I've yet to see any Christians love God with all their heart, soul, and mind who continue to sin every moment! It is Jesus Himself who gives DrMark and Mike the ability to live a sinless life, as He does for all who accept His sanctifying grace by faith.

quote:

IN fact the only place Ive met sinless Christians is on the internet posting boards.
In fact, the only place I've met sinning Christians who seem so unwilling to admit God has a better plan is on the internet posting boards. I guess anonymity has its advantages!



Nothingman -> RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind (4/7/2008 3:50:24 PM)

drmark, I apologize for not having read the entire thread as I must leave right away, but are you implying that Christians no longer sin?



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