RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (Full Version)

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Doorkeeper -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 3:56:00 PM)

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

At the fifth seal, the martyrs are calling for God's judgment on the Earth. If the tribulation is God's wrath, then He would already be judging the Earth. Therefore the tribulation is not God's wrath.



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 4:13:27 PM)

Yes that is correct Doorkeeper, tribulation is a product of the world and Satan. God’s wrath is to punish the world and Satan for their unbelief and disobediences. God’s wrath occurs towards the end of the last week, the Great Tribulation starts at the middle of the week. Events up to that point are the beginning of sorrow.

Bob



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 5:13:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doorkeeper

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

At the fifth seal, the martyrs are calling for God's judgment on the Earth. If the tribulation is God's wrath, then He would already be judging the Earth. Therefore the tribulation is not God's wrath.




Greetings,

quote:

At the fifth seal, the martyrs are calling for God's judgment on the Earth. If the tribulation is God's wrath, then He would already be judging the Earth.


Who them?

It is also said
Lu 9:27 - Show Context
"But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God."

So is they were martyerd and were under the altar.... the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Then according to Luke 12 there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God
So when was that??
If it was before the wrath of God and they already were dead....then when did they see the kingdom???
It says that many will not see death "till" they see the kingdom,

This means the Kingdom was already seen before they died.[;)]



LG



deliveredarling -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 5:29:07 PM)

I'm just curious, do any of you or have any of you ever considered with all of the end time talk, that maybe these things which are to come may be fulfilled as in a self-fulfilling prophecy. To clarify my meaning, such as the movies and books-works of fiction-being created in reality to fulfill scripture? Could our interpretations of Revelations be so filled with imagination due to the creative flare in the writing style of John? I'm certainly not saying or denying Christ's return. I'm questioning whether or not we can correctly interpret Revelation. Have we actually interpreted it ourselves or have our conclusion come from other people's study and their determinations of what it means?



Ezra -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 6:16:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Yes that is correct Doorkeeper, tribulation is a product of the world and Satan.


That is incorrect. Satan is always a tool in God's hand, and unless God purposes to bring tribulation upon the earth, Satan can do nothing. Now we read in Rev. 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth".

That word "temptation" is translated from the Greek word peirasmos, which can be translated as trial, temptation, or testing (proving). It is God who tries the hearts of men, and the Tribulation comes upon "all the world" to try the hearts of those who will be living during the reign of Antichrist. Some will resist the wiles of the Devil and be martyred. These are the tribulation saints (Rev. 6:9-11).

At the same time, it is God Himself who will send "strong delusion" upon this earth so that many will believe the lies of Satan as he works miracles through the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:3-12), and "be damned". Damnation is an expression of God's wrath (Jn. 3:36). This is therefore the time of God's wrath against the unbelief of men.

quote:

God’s wrath is to punish the world and Satan for their unbelief and disobediences. God’s wrath occurs towards the end of the last week, the Great Tribulation starts at the middle of the week. Events up to that point are the beginning of sorrow.


You have admitted that "God's wrath is to punish the world and Satan for their unbelief". What you have failed to understand is that when God sends "strong delusion" upon men so that they believe Satan's lies without examination, that in itself is an expression of God's wrath, since it leads to damnation.

Therefore the entire seven years of the Tribulation Period are a manifestation of God's wrath. However, the judgments are poured out in the last 3 1/2 years, whereas the delusion prevails during the first 3 1/2 years, and many saints are also martyred. This is not the Church (which is already in Heaven), but those who believe the Gospel during the tribulation on earth.

Today, God's grace prevails over the earth, and the Holy Spirit restrains the full force of Satan's malice and deception while the Gospel is preached. That will change during the Tribulation.

As to "the beginning of sorrows", that already began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and has continued since then with the numerous wars and world wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and the sorrows they have brought upon the human race since the first coming of Christ (Mt. 24:4-8). The Tribulation Period is yet in the future.



Ezra -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 6:31:01 PM)

quote:

Have we actually interpreted it ourselves or have our conclusion come from other people's study and their determinations of what it means?


While the studies and thoughts of others are of much value, all Christians can study and interpret Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, and believing what God reveals while "rightly dividing the Word of Truth".

The first thing that Christians should understand is that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, therefore we have been saved from wrath through Him.

The second thing that Christians should clearly understand is that the Tribulation Period is not to test the hearts of Christians, but "to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). God has promised to "keep" His children from this "hour of temptation" and He does this by removing them from the earth at the Rapture.

Just as Noah and his family were preserved through the great judgment of the earth by a universal Flood and it did not touch them, the Church will enter the "Ark" of Christ in Heaven, while the earth undergoes God's judgments and faces God's wrath. Just as Enoch was translated from this earth to Heaven before the Flood, the Church will be raptured out of this we earth into Heaven before the Tribulation.



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 6:53:16 PM)

It is quite obvious and more so as I study, that when this
all plays out, we will all find ourselves as being wrong.

I for one can easily handle that as I quit trying to make the scriptures
"say anything." I now just read them as they are. More from a Hebrew
point of view of course. lol.

Still a lot of scriptures tied together to say what "we each believe," but
not the ONE verse that says it outright as the OP was requesting.

God poured out His wrath on Egypt, the Israelites were "kept" from it,
but still there to come out.
God poured out His wrath on the whole earth with a flood, Noah and family
were "kept" from it, but still there to come out.

I don't believe Enoch and Elijah are relevant to the topic.

We are indeed promised that God will "keep us from the hour," but I don't
read anywhere about a promise going to heaven for seven years. Although
that's exactly what I taught for several decades. Of which I have since repented.

But, each will have to "study" and come to their own conclusions apart from the
influence of the different camps. They all use the same scriptures to prove the
point, but come up with completely different conclusions. Go figure.



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 7:02:44 PM)

Ezra, you have stated that we are already in the state of beginning of sorrow and I would agree. But there will be another real beginning of the “beginning of sorrow” and that will be the beginning of the last week.

Paul does tell us that God will send “strong delusion” upon men but Paul also tells us in 2Th 2 that it occurs after the mid point of the last week;

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

God’s wrath does not occur until the opening of the 7th seal and these events are preceded by the signs in the sun and moon referenced in Mat 24:29 and Rev 6:13 and once again these occur after the mid point of the week.

Bob



Doorkeeper -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 7:25:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Who them?

It is also said
Lu 9:27 - Show Context
"But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God."

So is they were martyerd and were under the altar.... the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Then according to Luke 12 there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God
So when was that??
If it was before the wrath of God and they already were dead....then when did they see the kingdom???
It says that many will not see death "till" they see the kingdom,

This means the Kingdom was already seen before they died.[;)]


????

The context of Rev 6 is found in the same chapter. There is no connection with Luke 9:27. These are two different passages...

"They" are those that died as martyrs up to the point when the fifth seal is opened. They will still be waiting for God's Judgment and wrath on the Earth long after the "tribulation period" has begun.

If you're asking about Luke 9:27, the answer is in the following verses. It was fulfilled in the following verses when they saw Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. They saw Jesus in His Glory and were "eyewitnesses of His Majesty" (2 Pet 1:16)



Doorkeeper -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 8:13:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
That is incorrect. Satan is always a tool in God's hand, and unless God purposes to bring tribulation upon the earth, Satan can do nothing. Now we read in Rev. 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth".
I always wonder why the Church is portrayed as the Church of Philadelphia and the Church of Smyrna is ignored:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Why Philadelphia over Smyrna?

quote:


At the same time, it is God Himself who will send "strong delusion" upon this earth so that many will believe the lies of Satan as he works miracles through the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:3-12), and "be damned". Damnation is an expression of God's wrath (Jn. 3:36). This is therefore the time of God's wrath against the unbelief of men.
Timing... Damnation occurs when people are cast into Hell not are in the "tribulation".

quote:


You have admitted that "God's wrath is to punish the world and Satan for their unbelief". What you have failed to understand is that when God sends "strong delusion" upon men so that they believe Satan's lies without examination, that in itself is an expression of God's wrath, since it leads to damnation.
God's true Church will not be deceived.

quote:


Today, God's grace prevails over the earth, and the Holy Spirit restrains the full force of Satan's malice and deception while the Gospel is preached. That will change during the Tribulation.
I'd suggest spending some time reading about the persecutions of the first century Church. Christians experienced some of the most horrific ways to die. Being eaten alive by lions, used as human torch lights and literally being "pan-fried" on giant hot skillets should not be seen as God trying to restrain evil. Besides Jesus said:

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Why does Jesus think it is a blessing to be persecuted? Why would He then keep the end-time Church from it? If those who were closest to Him in the first century Church were martyred then why would this Church "escape" it?



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 8:33:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doorkeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Who them?

It is also said
Lu 9:27 - Show Context
"But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God."

So is they were martyerd and were under the altar.... the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Then according to Luke 12 there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God
So when was that??
If it was before the wrath of God and they already were dead....then when did they see the kingdom???
It says that many will not see death "till" they see the kingdom,

This means the Kingdom was already seen before they died.[;)]


????

The context of Rev 6 is found in the same chapter. There is no connection with Luke 9:27. These are two different passages...

"They" are those that died as martyrs up to the point when the fifth seal is opened. They will still be waiting for God's Judgment and wrath on the Earth long after the "tribulation period" has begun.

If you're asking about Luke 9:27, the answer is in the following verses. It was fulfilled in the following verses when they saw Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. They saw Jesus in His Glory and were "eyewitnesses of His Majesty" (2 Pet 1:16)



Greetings,

quote:

It was fulfilled in the following verses when they saw Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. They saw Jesus in His Glory and were "eyewitnesses of His Majesty" (2 Pet 1:16)


I can see that... but He told them not to tell anyone until He was raised from the dead, and there were only 3 disciples there with Him, Jesus called it a vision not a fulfillment
3 = in 3 days.
The problem with the words here is "who shall not "taste death till "they see" the kingdom of God"

They are not going to see it until He returns, and then it is too late!

This can not be speaking of a born again believer who has been given the resurrection gift of life, where only then we can see and enter the kingdom

For every eye shall see Him is speaking of every eye, this can not be speaking of now because they are blinded at the moment, meaning they cannot see the kingdom.

When we die we are in the Presence of the Lord, so those who shall not "taste death till they see" the kingdom of God, is not speaking of the Saints!
[:(]


LG



cybrjewls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 10:33:11 PM)

Greetings dear Ezra! May God richly bless your studies. Please notice the admonition of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior regarding the time to come:
Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. And, please notice that it is written in revelation: He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. He will have power over every nation at that point as a worldwide leader among the 10 subduing three of them to make eight rulers.

Please notice that it is written: he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And: If you do not stand firm in your faith, you will not stand at all.' " And: I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Who are We to shrink back from the High calling of God to be counted among those that are found proved worthy of suffering for The Great and Gracious Name of Our Most Merciful Savior and Lord God? For it is written that the cowardly, the unbelieving will have their place in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. Also, it is written that those who take the mark of the false worldly prophet leader will burn in fury in front of the Holy Angels of The Most High God forever. This means that they will have a worse Hell to face, for their Hell is upstairs in the New Heavens that He creates in the New World to come with the Fury of
God Almighty in burning forever!

This trial is only a mere 3 1/2 years plus 30-75 days long. Long enough to test those who are counted worthy of those punishments and to ordain the Holy Saints of The Most High with the pleasure of reigning with Him in His Kingdom on earth along with those who bore the trial of Martyrdom throughout history included the Holy Apostles who suffered for the Great and Wonderous Gift of God that He had bestowed upon their lives in Christ Jesus Our Lord.

Do not think to yourself that these things are written to the non believers only. They are written for the believers to be prepared to endure the trials of the mark of the false worldly prophet which is the number of the name of the false prophet as it is written. I tell you the Truth, there are some found worthy among the nations that will not fail this test; not only among the people called Christians. For it is written that Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. These nations will heed the admonition of another book known as the Qu'ran and be delivered. For it is written that anyone who blasphemes The Most High God and claims to be Him is the unforgivable sin in their texts. Therefore, they will be prepared to not accept the false worldly prophet as though he was a savior. For they know that Isa will come into His Great Kingdom afterward and rule the whole earth at Jerusalem. Just as we are told that He will rule for one thousand years. And if any nation does not honor the feast of the tabernacles (notice it is plural) their skies will not have any rain. They will not crops to yield their fruits in its season that year in the Millennium if they do not honor the feast with a representative.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
That doesn't work, Ezra, because the Tribulation is not the Wrath of God


Just because you or some others choose to redefine things in Scripture does not make them so. So unless you can prove from Scripture that the Tribulation (including the Great Tribulation) is not a manifestation of God's wrath, you do not have a case.



TheosCentric -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 6:09:12 AM)

It looks like we're getting off-topic.

Where's the CLEAR verse about the pre-tribulational rapture?



Midwest -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 7:02:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger

It looks like we're getting off-topic.

Where's the CLEAR verse about the pre-tribulational rapture?



There isn't one, nor is there a "CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation" as the OP was asking for! As for me I'll join my brother John in tribulation. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 10:38:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Midwest

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger

It looks like we're getting off-topic.

Where's the CLEAR verse about the pre-tribulational rapture?



There isn't one, nor is there a "CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation" as the OP was asking for! As for me I'll join my brother John in tribulation. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.



Greetings,

Dont ya get it yet??
There isn't one, nor is there a "CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation"

This is what they want you to say...LOL!


But the truth is we already know this and gave the info

Perhaps those who are claiming Off Topic, missed this here

First of all Ezra already gave that "word", in the Greek,

And I offered that the whole bible is that verse.
In case no one has informed anyone...they did not use punctuations in the original texts!!!
LOL!


LG



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 10:41:27 AM)

quote:

the whole bible is that verse.


LOL. Hey, LG

Even as one continuous verse, there still "isn't" one.

RESURRECTION, yes.
Pre-Trib Rapture, no.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 12:27:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

the whole bible is that verse.


LOL. Hey, LG

Even as one continuous verse, there still "isn't" one.

RESURRECTION, yes.
Pre-Trib Rapture, no.


LOL!

Can you imagine how they came up with anything?
It must of looked like one of those cryptograms in the Sunday Papers...

LG



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 12:46:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

the whole bible is that verse.


LOL. Hey, LG

Even as one continuous verse, there still "isn't" one.

RESURRECTION, yes.



Hey Carl

quote:

Pre-Trib Rapture, no.




That must be the Jewish part coming out in ya...LOL!

My doctor who did my knee surgery was Jewish, he got a kick out the Cross embedded in the Star of David that I wear, he said, when He saw it....he said, "what I are trying to cover both bases./LOL/....and I said AMEN!!!
And I said to him...But we need our "older brother" to get into the fight!
.....And he did a great Job on the surgery, even to this day!


LOL!


LG



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 1:03:11 PM)

Congratulations on the surgery.
Glad to hear it. And my personal opinion
is that "many" Jews have a special touch
in what they do whether they believe or not.

LOL. At least you know I'm not a Sadducee. lol.
I believe in the after-life and angles.

So, I'm not always sad-you-see. lol.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 1:48:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

Congratulations on the surgery.
Glad to hear it. And my personal opinion
is that "many" Jews have a special touch
in what they do whether they believe or not.

LOL. At least you know I'm not a Sadducee. lol.
I believe in the after-life and angles.

So, I'm not always sad-you-see. lol.


quote:

Jews have a special touch
in what they do whether they believe or not.

The restoration of all things....I heard its going to be just like the Garden of Eden.
[sm=thumbsup.gif]



It’s not the sad-you-see I am worried about; LOL!
At least they have a chance in the trib, once they get to see Him.
Like in the scripture, when Jesus was on the Cross and the mockers where yelling out to Jesus to "save yourself" ...they will in like manner be rewarded! Lu 16:31

However!!!!!!

It’s those Pharisees ….who are going to bring down the wrath of God on the earth, Joh 5:45
Jesus has nothing to do with that -that is between the law of God and them.

And If I catch you dabbling in that stuff.....I will have no choice but to formally rebuke you …according to my calling!!!
[:D]
It’s automatic... I can’t help it!!


As far as the Lord is concerned… He is waiting for to us start …so He can finish…
His body needs a slap on the hind side…..the horses are at the gate!! LOL!


I love YA Bro...

Thanks for listening… I needed that release!


When are we going to continue in the Sunday thread???



LG



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 2:08:56 PM)

quote:

It’s those Pharisees ….who are going to bring down the wrath of God on the earth, Joh 5:45
Jesus has nothing to do with that -that is between the law of God and them.

And If I catch you dabbling in that stuff.....I will have no choice but to formally rebuke you …according to my calling!!!

It’s automatic... I can’t help it!!


LOL.
I'll be angry if you don't.
I need a slap {in love} from time to time.
I won't let Bob know he's done me that way a time or two. lol.

In love, we can discuss all things.
In flesh, we make it personal.

Let me know when you're going to run the marathon.
You did ask the doctor if you could run the marathon when it's over didn't you? lol.

You know, Can I play the piano when this is over?
Well, only if you could play before the operation.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 2:22:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

It’s those Pharisees ….who are going to bring down the wrath of God on the earth, Joh 5:45
Jesus has nothing to do with that -that is between the law of God and them.

And If I catch you dabbling in that stuff.....I will have no choice but to formally rebuke you …according to my calling!!!

It’s automatic... I can’t help it!!


LOL.
I'll be angry if you don't.
I need a slap {in love} from time to time.
I won't let Bob know he's done me that way a time or two. lol.

In love, we can discuss all things.
In flesh, we make it personal.

Let me know when you're going to run the marathon.
You did ask the doctor if you could run the marathon when it's over didn't you? lol.

You know, Can I play the piano when this is over?
Well, only if you could play before the operation.



LOL!

[sm=icon_smile_idea.gif]



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 2:29:46 PM)

quote:

I won't let Bob know he's done me that way a time or two.


Who me?? Must be another Bob.[8|]

Bob



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 3:05:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

I won't let Bob know he's done me that way a time or two.


Who me?? Must be another Bob.[8|]

Bob




BILLY



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 5:46:19 PM)

LOL. That was your other brother "Bob."



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