RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (Full Version)

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bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/17/2008 6:47:19 PM)

Mr. Bob...he is my troublesome twin.

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/18/2008 4:02:55 PM)

LOL.
Well, maybe you haven't slapped me,
but you've made me think without making
me feel attacked. lol. As in, I'm right and
you are wrong.

I have to admit, I think I have that affect on others
sometimes, but probably the hearing isn't in tune with
the speaking. That's what I feel sometimes, but I do
know that I'm listening in a different "key" than the
speaker is "playing." There are several on the threads,
that no matter what they say, I don't understand a word of it.

Then there are the majority that I know we agree on most
everything but with a difference of opinion. And those who have
an arrogant argumentive spirit are usually the drive-bys. Here
today and gone tomorrow. lol.

So, I guess, Lord willing, I will posting at least until the year 2010. lol.
Internet may get so complicated that my hillbilly mind won't be able to
keep up with it.



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/18/2008 5:58:05 PM)

quote:

There are several on the threads,
that no matter what they say, I don't understand a word of it.


Amen to that Carl, also when the post is so long that I forget what the point is before I get to the end gives me a somewhat of a head ache.

Bob



ManimalX -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/19/2008 12:04:41 AM)

Ezra, I always get a smile when I see that you have joined a thread because I know you will be quashing misunderstanding and generally illuminating truth. Good job.

quote:

Therefore the entire seven years of the Tribulation Period are a manifestation of God's wrath.


This is a point that cannot be stressed enough, and yet is misunderstood by so many.

quote:

The second thing that Christians should clearly understand is that the Tribulation Period is not to test the hearts of Christians


This is an even more important point that many people remain ignorant of. I have never understood why some Christians think that real Christians need to go through some sort of purification or testing before they are allowed to be taken by Christ. Maybe it is some sort of guilt complex. The belief that somehow the end-time church has to be tested or purified by tribulation is just plain wrong, ignorant, and borderline blasphemous. I don't know about anyone else, but the price for my salvation has already been paid IN FULL. My faith is real, and God doesn't need to give me some wrathful final exam to insure I have the gift (true regenerating faith) that He already gave me. I don't think He forgot about giving it to me.



Ezra -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/19/2008 12:56:51 AM)

quote:

Ezra, I always get a smile when I see that you have joined a thread because I know you will be quashing misunderstanding and generally illuminating truth. Good job.


Thank you, Brother, and thanks for reiterating some fundamental truths that need to be emphasized.

And thanks be unto God for His indescribable Gift.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/19/2008 3:18:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX

Ezra, I always get a smile when I see that you have joined a thread because I know you will be quashing misunderstanding and generally illuminating truth. Good job.

quote:

Therefore the entire seven years of the Tribulation Period are a manifestation of God's wrath.


This is a point that cannot be stressed enough, and yet is misunderstood by so many.

[Quote] The second thing that Christians should clearly understand is that the Tribulation Period is not to test the hearts of Christians


This is an even more important point that many people remain ignorant of. I have never understood why some Christians think that real Christians need to go through some sort of purification or testing before they are allowed to be taken by Christ. Maybe it is some sort of guilt complex. The belief that somehow the end-time church has to be tested or purified by tribulation is just plain wrong, ignorant, and borderline blasphemous. I don't know about anyone else, but the price for my salvation has already been paid IN FULL. My faith is real, and God doesn't need to give me some wrathful final exam to insure I have the gift (true regenerating faith) that He already gave me. I don't think He forgot about giving it to me.






Greetings,



quote:

The belief that somehow the end-time church has to be tested or purified by tribulation is just plain wrong, ignorant, and borderline blasphemous.


I can agree with that! I thought we are already being tested; to be tested again would be double jeopardy… so to speak!

Isn’t that what the parable of the 10 virgins were about according to the wedding traditions? Where 5 were left and 5 were taken

One will be taken and the other left, it’s still a 2 to 1 ratio..LOL!



LG



Cephyr13 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/20/2008 8:37:12 AM)

It should be noted that the Hebrews were in Egypt when God reigned down His plagues on the Egyptians and not one Hebrew was hurt. God doesn't have to remove us from the earth for us to escape His wrath which is said to ONLY be the 7 vials, not the 7 seals or 7 trumpets. In fact, what's interesting is that Jesus was the only person in heaven who could open the book of the 7 seals to allow them release. Why? Because He's the only one in heaven who has gained rights to the earth by becoming a man, because in Genesis 1:26, mankind was given dominion (sovereign rule without outside interferance from even God, unless we ask for it) over the entire earth and everything on it, including ourselves. We condemned ourselves with sin, and Jesus came as a man to bring us out of our sins and to rule as man and God in the end.

Rapture is on the last day inbetween the 6th and 7th vials. Read the 6th & 7th vials in Revelation 16 and if you have an accurate red letter edition, you'll see Jesus speaking (in red) between those two vials and He says He comes like a thief and we should keep our clothes on so we don't go naked and ashamed. He wouldn't tell that to anyone except Christians, and besides, only Christians would be reading this, generally anyway. If the rapture is not there, then why even bother saying it? The 6th & 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial are all the same event told from three different perspectives. Write down all of the events side by side in each one of those (mix the 6th & 7th seal events, because they happen one right after the other), and you'll see that these events are the same events. Some of them cannot happen twice, like the islands and mountains not being found. Just something to think about...



bettymackII -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/20/2008 7:37:00 PM)

Interesting reading.
But maybe I should have typed
what verse in the Bible clearly
teaches a pre-tribulation
rapture?
Not until 1830 have we ever
heard anyone teach a
rapture before the tribulation.



cybrjewls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/20/2008 10:03:19 PM)

Hello in Christ Jesus our Lord and favorable Messiah! That's because it does not take into account the fuller counsel found at Scripture. Yet, there are some Churches that will not allow a preacher to reach the pulpit without ascribing to this doctrine. For example, The Calvary Chapel brand of Churches for some reason. One would think that adequately presenting what is in Scripture would be more important to do so that the believers are trained enough to handle the situation that will come to pass eventually. Although, in our generation this training may not be as important for the Temple of God does not exist yet.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

Interesting reading.
But maybe I should have typed
what verse in the Bible clearly
teaches a pre-tribulation
rapture?
Not until 1830 have we ever
heard anyone teach a
rapture before the tribulation.



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/23/2008 8:56:54 PM)

Welcome to crosswalk kk45.

Those are held by the pre-trib camp, but they are NOT verses
saying plainly there is a pre-trib rapture.

I Thess. 4:15 states that those alive when Jesus comes
will not prevent those dead in Christ to be raised first at the Resurrection.

IThess. 5:1, Paul is telling them that they know all about the Feasts of the Lord,
His very own appointed times (Lev. 23) so he doesn't have to train them in that.

I Thess. 5:2, Paul is telling them that those who are in darkness are not prepared
and that the time will come as a thief in the night (which has nothing to do with a robber).
It's Hebrew idiom about being asleep on the job.

I Thess. 5:3, those in the dark and those not prepared will talk about peace and safety.
"as" a woman in travail. This is a simili, something similar to.
The baby does not come "any moment," gets raptured out of the womb. It comes at
the "appointed time."

IThess. 5:4, those prepared and understand God's "appointed times" are not in the dark.
So that day does not come upon them as something asleep on the job.

I Thess. 5:5, Those he is writing to are shown contrast as in: ready versus unprepared;
informed versus ignorant. etc.

I THess. 5:6 tells us not to be asleep on the job as others, don't be lulled to sleep by winds of doctrine.

I think that should show the real jist of what Paul is saying.

V. 9 ---- "not appointed us to wrath" is just what it says, nothing more, nothing less.
The "wrath of God," and the time of tribulation is NOT the same thing or at the same time.

V. 11 ------- Indeed, we are to comfort one another with the truth, not the "pie-in-the-sky" doctrine
of an imminent return.

Good try though.



upNORTder -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 12:48:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks





Isaiah 26:15-21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



15 You have enlarged the nation, O LORD;
you have enlarged the nation.
You have gained glory for yourself;
you have extended all the borders of the land.

16 LORD, they came to you in their distress;
when you disciplined them,
they could barely whisper a prayer. [a]

17 As a woman with child and about to give birth
writhes and cries out in her pain,
so were we in your presence, O LORD.

18 We were with child, we writhed in pain,
but we gave birth to wind.
We have not brought salvation to the earth;
we have not given birth to people of the world.

19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 12:59:54 AM)

quote:

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.


Nort...the big question here is; when does he wrath of God start?

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 11:20:50 AM)

quote:

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.


It's hard for me to see that we are "clearly" out of here!

More like prepare yourself "while" this is going on.
Seems to be describing the "ten days of awe" just before the Day of Atonement.



Biblefreak -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 11:25:00 AM)

I'll just say everyday I wake up I wonder if today is the day? It's coming like a freight train!



upNORTder -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 11:28:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.


It's hard for me to see that we are "clearly" out of here!

More like prepare yourself "while" this is going on.
Seems to be describing the "ten days of awe" just before the Day of Atonement.



The dead rise first:

19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.


Sounds more like the RAPTURE!



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 11:47:05 AM)

Oh.................you're talking about the Resurrection.
I agree to that.

But, we hide behind the doors?



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 1:29:36 PM)

kountrykia...if you want to understand the gathering of the saints I suggest you read and study Mat 24 because it gives the time line of the end time events and I'm sorry to say that it does not teach an early escape from this world. Wished it did but it's not there.[:(]

But you are correct that we will not suffer the wrath of God because we are gathered prior to that beginning.

The whole 7 years period is not the wrath of God, only the latter part of the week is God's wrath. The Great Tribulation, which starts at mid week is the results of Satan's efforts, not God.

I know this is hard for you to accept because it goes against your teaching. Now, you can do one of two things; study and learn the truth on continue in your current misunderstanding.

Bob



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 4:56:40 PM)

kia,
I've studied those same sound bytes (scriptures out of context)
and I've read those same Christian Teachers.

But there comes a time, when each of us have to study the Word of God
without the slants of others who have made a profession out of doctrines.

If a person can stand back and see Thessalonians from front to back, Paul
is disputing what we may say he is saying. He is warning us not to be deceived
by a secret catching away, etc.

But, you have your mind made up, so I won't try to confuse you with the facts.
I was a Pre-Trib Teacher myself, but too many Scriptures do not line up with that
"doctrine." For decades, I judged all books and writings whether they were pre-trib
or not. Which is a mechanism that keeps us from being informed otherwise.

I grew up in an AoG denomination; they only have two doctrines: 1) Rapture; 2) Tongues.
And they have added the 3) Prosperity Gospel in the mix now. 1) & 3) are "false-doctrines."



Dirtyl3um -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 5:11:13 PM)

-- i origionally posted this in the doctring section, but was informed that theres is a prophecy section, now its here --

i used to believe in the pre-trib rapture, but i think the word speaks for itself on this matter....


1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

/* right here its obvious that when the Lord comes again its not going to be quiet, its going to be a a spectacle. something glorious. */

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

/* this is describing the rapture. pay close attention to what paul has written, "...then we which are alive..." why does he refer to these people as we??? because they are believers! */

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

^^^ if you cannot see it here, CLEAR AS DAY, please read it again ^^^
^^^ what day is he speaking of???? 2 thessalonians 1 tells us ^^^

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

/* gathering together with him??? */


/* as we continue to read, its very clear here when this event will happen. it will happen after a falling away comes, and the anti-christ proclaims to be God. when will the anti-christ proclaim to be God??? not before the tribulation begins, because the rapture will happen after a good deal of the tribulation takes place */

revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

/* this is an interesting passage, because it talks about a mystery that will be fulfilled at the 7th angel. what on earth is this talking about?? */

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

/* ooooh so at the last trumpet this mystery will happen?!?!?! is the last trumpet the trumpet of the 7th angel? since there are 7 trumpets total? */


mattew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

/* when will we be changed??? when will all of these things occur? when will the rapture happen??? when will the dead be raised, and we all get transformed and receive our new bodies??? (rev 10:7) */


1 john 3
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

/* yet another verse that corroborates. when will we be like him?? when will we have our new bodies? when will this happen??? when Jesus comes back, all of this will happen, and it will happen with the 7th angel, at the sound of the 7th trumpet. the 7th trumpet sounds in rev 10:7 */

this is what i firmly believe the Bible teaches us on this subject. if anyone has ample evidence to support otherwise please, bring it forth. i am a human and thus subject to my own bias, as well as folly.

thoughts?



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 5:20:50 PM)

quote:

what on earth is this talking about?? */


LOL.
It's not a mystery if we know our TaNaKh (Old Testament).
Paul writes to the Thessalonians, "You have no need that I write
concerning the 'times and seasons' for you know perfectly well
what they are." His readers knew perfectly well what he was
talking about, but we don't have a clue. Because we are not
instructed in these things, and because it's covered by the false-
doctrines we have fabricated.



Dirtyl3um -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 5:22:51 PM)

funny.... read the next Bible verse right after my comment.... its explained, i write my comments in that fashion to get the reader questioning....

the mystery is vividly explain in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

edit: may i ask how its a false doctrine? it says it will occur when the 7th trumpet sounds.... when will the 7th trumpet sound? (rev 10:7) thats not fabricating the scripture, thats using deductive reasoning....



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 7:34:43 PM)

quote:

may i ask how its a false doctrine? it says it will occur when the 7th trumpet sounds


Did you ever ask yourself exactly which trumpet the 7th trumpet is?[8|]

Bob



lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:18:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger

quote:

ORIGINAL: lecoop

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks


Here it is, clear as crystal:

Rev 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"After" what? After the sealing of the 144000. Why were they sealed? Of course, for their protection during the first half of the 70th week. Therefore, John sees this great crowd in heaven, BEFORE the 70th week has even started! Who are they? Of course they are the just raptured church. When were they raptured? Undoubtedly at the worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal. Why an earthquake that shakes the entire planet? Matthew said, "and the ground did quake...and the graves were opened." Resurrections cause earthquakes. Since this will be the dead in christ, they will come from all over the planet; hense a world wide earthquake.

Why is the church seen in heaven? Jesus told us:

John 14
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What takes place on earth, after the church is gone? God's wrath!

Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The church cannot be here during His wrath:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The church has no appointment with wrath. Plain and simple.

Coop

That's quite some twisting and reading into of the scriptures there. Good job on the attempt.

It's still wrong.


Please point out the twisting.

Coop



Dirtyl3um -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:20:24 PM)

coop, please read my above posting.

bob, was that a serious question? if it is i cannot answer it without it sounding completely sarcastic.... the 7th trumpet is the one after the 6th



lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:23:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks


Coop, you didn't answer the question because you didn't read it correctly.
That's my assumption.

It's not debatable verses.
But an actual verse that says what you are implying.

It's a nice try, but that's why this thread has just been laying here. LOL.


[sm=hammerhead.gif]

quote:

coop


Of course I read it, and replied. It is very clear to me. It is not my fault that others do not see clearly. Where is "the tribulation" in Revelation? Even this simple question is not clear to most of the posters here, as we see disagreements even on this.

Please note: John saw this crowd in heaven, not on earth. Is that clear?

It is clear to me, that this crowd is the church. John covers that time of great tribulation, in chapter 13. (We see the fleeing into the wilderness in chapter 12.) Therefore, they are in heaven, about 3 1/2 years before the time of great tribulation. As I said, plain and simple.

Coop



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