RE: IF the rapture is scriptural,

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cybrjewls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/23/2008 8:06:35 PM)
Hello! The first half of the last 7 years of history is a trial under the 'wrath' of the false prophet worldly beast from the earth. All he can do is torture you until you're dead. God, however, has the power to put a soul in hell forever. It is written: we have not been tested more than what is common to mankind. Therefore, the Body of Believers will have to stand in the patient endurance of their faith during this time period along with everyone else on the earth under the 10 world leaders, among whom the antichrist joins after subduing 3 of them to make 8 as written. Paul said: in the patient endurance and faithfullness that are ours in Christ Jesus. For these present sufferings cannot compare with The Grace that God has given us in Christ, and perserverence would bring hope. They were like people condemned to die in the arena. Aren't we all: for the wages of sin is death and the angels are watching us from their blessed Places in heaven as protectors, scribes.... with differing glories and power. For it is written: unknown to them that they were entertaining Angels. Bad things happen to people all the time. If you believe that some of them are not saved, and are going to Judgment and hell; why would you not think that everyone will be tested as written: to test those that are on the earth.? The second half of the 7 year period will be the time for God's wrath poured out upon the earth, as written in revelation, upon the followers of the false prophet beast from the earth who took the mark of the number of the name of the person (fallen 'power that be' who once was, now is not, yet will come) who is the antichrist who had set up the abomination that causes desolations to be decreed against his worldwide empire. 30-75 days after the antichrist sets up the abomination that causes desolation and puts an end to sacrifice and offering at The Temple of God, the raptura event will occur as written. quote: ORIGINAL: PromiseLander Quite simply... 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath..." What is the tribulation as described in Revelation? It is the wrath of God. The Church will not be appointed to suffer the wrath of God - that's an inclusive statement - The Church will not suffer wrath neither in this life or after death. The tribulation in Revelation covers the entire planet, ergo, the Church will not be here.

LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/23/2008 8:58:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ..... Who is this?? The unknown comic? or the unkmown Saint?[:D] LG

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/24/2008 10:49:41 PM)
His/her profile has already been raptured out of here. lol. quote: Who is this?? The unknown comic? or the unkmown Saint? LG

bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/24/2008 11:31:57 PM)
The mask prophet! Bob

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/25/2008 2:47:33 PM)
RAPTURE: If believers in Yahushua are taken, then why would the days of the tribulation have to be "shortened" for the sake of the Elect (those in a Covenant with Yahuah)? [reference: Mt. 24:22; Mk. 13:20] The first to be "taken" will be the WEEDS, who will be literally burned with fire before the eyes of those who are "left" (Mt. 13:30; Mt. 3:12; Lk. 3:17; 2Peter 3:10-12; Rev. 17:16; Ps. 91:7). Misunderstanding this "timing" of our being clothed with immortality is not an issue that is critical to our salvation, but rather one of profound mishandling of Yahuah's inspired words in its details of the last days, and the unfolding of the events that the qodeshim will be enduring to the "end."

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/26/2008 2:30:50 AM)
The tares are not taken but collected. The wheat is gathered into the barn of Heaven. Then the tares are burned in the field. Therefore, the Elect go through the Great Tribulation to be gathered up on the Day of the Lord which happens some time after the midpoint. After that, the first Trumpet blows and the burning begins! At the end of the one 'seven,' the last desolation decreed by God is poured out upon the beast of a man.

ruthlesstrust -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/27/2008 10:36:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger That doesn't work, Ezra, because the Tribulation is not the Wrath of God Just because you or some others choose to redefine things in Scripture does not make them so. So unless you can prove from Scripture that the Tribulation (including the Great Tribulation) is not a manifestation of God's wrath, you do not have a case. I believe Revelation 12:17 clarifies the question. Thanks ruthlesstrust

tracydolls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/27/2008 11:09:34 PM)
quote: If believers in Yahushua are taken, then why would the days of the tribulation have to be "shortened" for the sake of the Elect (those in a Covenant with Yahuah)? [reference: Mt. 24:22; Mk. 13:20] Why do Christians think we will not suffer? I'm trying to understand that.

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/28/2008 12:39:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tracydolls quote: If believers in Yahushua are taken, then why would the days of the tribulation have to be "shortened" for the sake of the Elect (those in a Covenant with Yahuah)? [reference: Mt. 24:22; Mk. 13:20] Why do Christians think we will not suffer? I'm trying to understand that. That is the "itching ears" message that we have inherited from those before. It's way before we were born, so if we grew up with it, we believe it's the truth. And to top it off, most of us only get our information from the sermonettes on Sunday morning, tv preachers, and movies and songs with that viewpoint. It's when you study for yourself without a preconceived notion that you ask, "Why do they believe that?" Been there, done that, so I understand why we have believed what we believe, but as a studier for myself, I had to change my view to reconcile the Scriptures one to the other. If the scriptures we use contradict other passages, then we haven't found the truth of the matter yet, as God does not contradict Himself, man does. So that's my rule of thumb in wondering if I have the truth or not.

mindmatters -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/9/2008 12:01:29 PM)
matthew 24: 1-31 Christ will gather together the church after the tribulation. in revelation 7 you can see before the 7th seal is broken, an angel comes to mark God's people so the affects of tribulation do not affect them. why would this be necessary if they are not here. you also see in chapter 7 the great multitude from the great tribulation. when i done a word study on this passage, i found that great can also mean long in greek. which lead me back to matthew 24 where Christ said that there will be tribulation like never before, which tells me that after Christ's death, Christians began to be persecuted, and this is what Christ was talking about i think. so the great tribulation is my opinion, and that is all it is, is talking about life as we know it. so these are the saved up to that point. where they are, the bible says they are with him around His throne. but we have to remember as well that a new heaven and earth is were eternity will be spent, and God is not bound by the restraints of time as we are. so things may not play out as we read them with our minimal understanding that God has allowed us to have. it's all about God, he wants us to depend on him. what's really important though is romans 10. if you are born again, you will be in eternity with him, and whether or not the church is present in tribulation, as a born again Christian, there is nothing they can do to take it away! praise God!

searcher1 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/9/2008 12:29:38 PM)
I can't give you an absolute certainty that the Church will be removed before the tribulations. There is two schools of thought on this. Most Christians believe we will be removed prior to the tribulations but.... there are those who believe the Church will go through it. What is your thoughts on it?

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/9/2008 4:38:43 PM)
I guess it always comes down to a vote doesn't it? LOL. And that vote depends on our world view, and our own ideas what things mean. Ask any two Jews and you will have three opinions. With "rapture" there are as many opinions as there are people. I can guarantee it won't be like any of us have it figured out. I vote we'll be here, so we will all be able to see who's right or wrong if we're still living.

mindmatters -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/14/2008 12:27:48 PM)
lol! i don't think that God would allow a vote to change his absolute word though. it would seem that is how most would like to settle it though. but what i really think, is the reason it is not clear is because the bible says that no one knows when the coming of Christ will be. so that tells me that if there was a pre trib rapture of the church you could calculate when His return would be. for that matter, if we even knew when tribulation started we could calculate His return. and i don't think that is going to happen. i would like to think i would recognize the image of the beast in the temple (whoever that will be) but i think that we will be in tribulation and not even realize it. as i have studied this a lot, i am beginning to think that when the image of the beast is set up, that is when Christ will return, (Matthew 24), for the elects sake those days will be shortened. the mark is instituted and Christ returns to set up on earth his kingdom with the church. in revelation 20, after the 1000 year reign, satan is released to deceive the people for a short while, and shows up at the city and God breathes fire out of heaven to destroy them. keep in mind this is after Armageddon and the 1000 year reign.this means that life is still going on outside the city walls of the 1000 years with Christ on earth. but that messes with all the time lines the scholars have come up with that we have been taught all our lives, if you were in church. God is not bound by time, and we are trying to put a time limit on things we don't even understand. there is some definite weight to the number of days in revelation, but it has been said before that a day to God is like a 1000 years to us, now that puts the time line in perspective to me, but that also means that tribulation will last a long time. so who really knows. i do not think the scholars do either. nobody knows when he will return. his return will be like a thief in the night. martin luther wanted to keep revelation out of the bible.

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/14/2008 12:52:37 PM)
Revelation will be played out on the lines of Leviticus 23. yet, no one knows when it will begin. As much prophecy has multiple fulfillments, so our pet doctrines go up in smoke each time. We just have to have complete faith in God and faith that is producing good kingdom works. Salvation first, works because of salvation afterwards. When the trumpet blows we will know and be ready. When the trumpet blew in days gone by, covenant and non-covenant people heard it. Covenant people responded to the call, the non-covenant people went about their business. As in the days of Noah, as in the days of Sodom & Gomorrah. The cry was made, the call sent out. Those ready came, the rest perished. Same with the Resurrection. Those ready are resurrected, the rest perish. Rapture is nothing more than an argument of timing. Resurrection is Biblical Doctrine.

mindmatters -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/15/2008 6:55:03 PM)
amen to that!

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/18/2008 9:21:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: If that is true, then only 3 1/2 years of the seven remain! And if it is not true, then the entire 7 year period is yet future. A careful study of Daniel and Revelation will show that this interpretation is false. BTW, not only is the Rapture scriptural, but the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is clearly revealed in the New Testament. Shalom, Ezra. And, we're supposed to believe that because YOU say that "a careful study of Daniel and Revelation" shows it false? WHAT'S YOUR PROOF! (And, it better be good because I've read Dani'el in Hebrew.) No, based on Dani'el and Matthew and Hebrews, it IS true! Oh, and I have no problem with the Scriptural veracity of the Rapture; my problem is what the Rapture is for! It's NOT to "take anyone to 'Heaven,'" no matter what point of time one might place it in the seven years! Get the purpose for the Rapture correct and the placement of the Rapture will follow. Retrobyter

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/18/2008 9:33:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint The tares are not taken but collected. The wheat is gathered into the barn of Heaven. Then the tares are burned in the field. Therefore, the Elect go through the Great Tribulation to be gathered up on the Day of the Lord which happens some time after the midpoint. After that, the first Trumpet blows and the burning begins! At the end of the one 'seven,' the last desolation decreed by God is poured out upon the beast of a man. Shalom, Sinner-Saint. Sorry, but the parable that Yeshua` taught about the wheat and the tares is not about this time period at all! It's about the end of the Millennium! It's a parable about the KINGDOM, not about the times of the Goyim (Gentiles)! Furthermore, the Kingdom of God is NOT the "church!" Never has been and never will be! Goyim, who are called "Christians" because they are believers, are GRAFTED INTO the Olive Tree! We are an add-on, just as modern Jewish believers are! I find it amazing how pompous, impudent, audacious, and self-centered we Gentile "Christians" can be to think all prophecy centers about us! Retrobyter

TheosCentric -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 5:30:29 AM)
The following verse from Jesus himself does away with any idea of a pre-tribulation rapture: (Mat 24:29) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Mat 24:30) Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. When will that happen, based on Revelation? (Rev 11:15) Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 7:48:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter Sorry, but the parable that Yeshua` taught about the wheat and the tares is not about this time period at all! It's about the end of the Millennium! I think you're absolutely wrong. Jesus didn't teach about His Millennium reign just as He didn't tell everyone what Heaven was like during His first Advent; He did have a lot to say about the end of this age and the parable of the wheat and tares is one of those and it follows right along with all the other imagery about the end of the Church age. Concerning your rebuttal, I did not mention the Kingdom, but Jesus did. In that regard, it is nearly impossible to frame the time of the Kingdom or what its exact bounds are from Scripture! Therefore, for you to say that it concerns only the Millennium goes against Jesus' own pronouncements that His Kingdom was already realized during His first Advent! Furthermore, since we are the type of worshippers God desires and we will be included in His Kingdom, indeed, we will reign with Him and be as Priests during the Millennium - we as the Elect are very much a part of the end-time prophecy as it concerns the end of the Church age. We are the Church! Each of us is a Temple of God! Church is not an institution of Man nor is it a building. Church is any group of believers. Finally, as there are two resurrections - and the first is selective: then the parable of wheat and tares reflects the divergent paths taken by God's people as reflected in the Church and the wicked who reject God which will happen at the end of this age, and I think it is only a matter of a few years before the last events which must precede the end of this age come about!

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 7:53:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: searcher1 I can't give you an absolute certainty that the Church will be removed before the tribulations. There is two schools of thought on this. Most Christians believe we will be removed prior to the tribulations but.... there are those who believe the Church will go through it. What is your thoughts on it? I agree that you canot find positive evidence which plainly and literally shows that we will be whisked away before the Great Tribulation (as Jesus defined it which means it is not the same as the one 'seven'). Jesus' Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:15-31) provides the key passage which can reconcile the Seal account of Rev 4-11 to Gabriel's prophecy of the seventy 'sevens.' Putting them together leads me to conclude that the sixth Seal comes at some nebulous time after the midpoint of the one 'seven.' That Day is also known as the Day of the Lord. It is this Day, known only to the Father, when Jesus comes again to rescue us, and then shortly thereafter once we are safe in Heaven, delivers His Wrath upon those left behind.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 7:55:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lapidoth I guess it always comes down to a vote doesn't it? LOL. And that vote depends on our world view, and our own ideas what things mean. Ask any two Jews and you will have three opinions. With "rapture" there are as many opinions as there are people. I can guarantee it won't be like any of us have it figured out. I vote we'll be here, so we will all be able to see who's right or wrong if we're still living. I think we ought to go back and show where it is written in Scripture. Everyone has their opinion, but God gave us prophecy. It would behoove us to read it and understand it. God lets us understand, indeed, He implores us to know and understand.

chrystar -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 12:24:19 PM)
Man I never get tired of this debate/question/ argument!!!![:)] Pre trib rapture can be disproven bibicly, so thus it cannot be true( sorry folks this is fact not my"opnion") I just have to shake my head at why this is so ahrd to get across sometimes.......oh well if you believe in pre-trib or pst trib or somehwere in the middle trib, as long as you belive that christ died for your sins as the only begotten-son of god, then your A-okay in my book!!!!!

Heavendweller -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 12:56:50 PM)
I'll be forthright from the beginning. I read only a limited amount of posts on this thread. Why? Because I've heard all the points of view on both sides. Honestly, shouldn't we as Christians be ready to meet our Lord every day of our lives? None of us knows when we are going to die, and we must be prepared to be taken whenever that time may be. God will give His children the wisdom and prepare them for whatever the latter days bring. I know, this is a simplistic point of view. Sometimes, this is what is needed when a subject becomes so complicated, and so controversial, and so heated that one can't see the forest for the leaves. So my brothers and sisters, are your hearts ready for the day of death, that time when you will shed this earthly tent? To this end we must live. Heavendweller

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 1:53:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: Lapidoth I guess it always comes down to a vote doesn't it? LOL. And that vote depends on our world view, and our own ideas what things mean. Ask any two Jews and you will have three opinions. With "rapture" there are as many opinions as there are people. I can guarantee it won't be like any of us have it figured out. I vote we'll be here, so we will all be able to see who's right or wrong if we're still living. I think we ought to go back and show where it is written in Scripture. Everyone has their opinion, but God gave us prophecy. It would behoove us to read it and understand it. God lets us understand, indeed, He implores us to know and understand. Everyone has given their "scriptures" for their views time and time again. Those seeking "truth" will view them all along with the opinions and search it out for themselves and "find" the truth. Those are the ones who allow the scriptures to be read "from" while the arguments are from reading "into" the scriptures. This week we got into a {discussion} about the plagues of Egypt meaning this or that. whew!! For me they say what they say, they mean what they mean. The HOLY SPIRIT truly "leads" us into all truth. But, we're like the horse, we can be led there, but that doesn't mean we'll accept it. LOL.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/19/2008 3:13:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lapidoth The HOLY SPIRIT truly "leads" us into all truth. Well this is true, but I hear people with wildly different eschatologies, ideas, timelines, and timing all claiming they prayed and the Holy Spirit showed them the answer... So, just because one is led to believe in a certain perspective, doesn't necessarily mean it came from the Holy Spirit; obviously, some of us are deluding ourselves. I will stand on the test of Scripture and to that point, I think that looking at Bible prophecy as a linear narrative which enumerates a certain sequence of events allows me to put the whole of prophecy together around certain specific and unique events so that a general sequence-of-events can predict the relative placement of the Rapture. This methodology is a new paradigm in eschatology. It has the advantage of being able to found itself on the major books/passages concerning the end-times and bring a holistic approach that can discern the forest for the trees which finds coherent overall framework that doesn't have the problems some other methods/schools of eschatology have. It led me to conclude for a Pre-Wrath viewpoint which I am more than willing to discuss.

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