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Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (6/15/2008 8:55:20 PM)
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
Okay, as I said, you also need to know the definitions of “spirit” and “soul".
The words for “spirit,” “ruach” in Hebrew and “pneuma” in Greek, both literally mean the “wind” or a “forceful breath!”
The words for “soul,” “nefesh” in Hebrew and “psuchee” in Greek, both refer to the animated person, and the word “nefesh” further refers to the one who “breathes!”
And for good measure, let’s also include the words for “body,” “geviyah” in Hebrew and “sooma” in Greek.
Thus, literally speaking, the “nefesh” is the combination of the “geviyah” with its “ruach” in Hebrew, and the “psuchee” is the combination of the “sooma” with its “pneuma” in Greek. The one who “breathes” is the combination of the “body” with its “forceful breath!” So, in translation to our English words, the “soul” is the combination of the “body” and its “spirit.”
Now, by analogy, if we want to say that the “ruach” or the “pneuma” is the “immaterial part of a person,” then we should conclude that the “nefesh” or the “psuchee” is a combination of the “body” with that “immaterial part of a person.”
That being said, we must be careful which word is which! IF we are going to talk about a person who is in the state of death, i.e. after the event of dying and before the event of the resurrection, we must be sure that we are seeing the word “spirit” (Hebrew: “ruach”; Greek “pneuma”)! IF we see the word “soul” (Hebrew: “nefesh”; Greek: “psuchee”), then we are talking about the person BEFORE the event of dying or AFTER the event of resurrection!
Now, let’s look at what you said,…
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
“First of all, Jesus, as our Lord, who has the keys to death and Hades gives us the only glimpse of the afterlife in Luke 16:19-31 and it is not in a pine box six feet under.”
You’re right. The Greek word in Luke 16:19-31 IS “hadees” which means the “unseen.” HOWEVER, that word HAS been applied to “the grave!” There are two ways of looking at this passage: One way (which you and others have chosen to accept, often unwittingly through the teachings of others) is to say that the whole event is taking place in “hadees.” The other way of looking at this passage is that the rich man is INITIALLY in “hadees” when resurrected and it is while he is still “in hadees” that he experiences pain from the flames! It would be hard to “lift up one’s eyes” or “be touched by a finger on one’s tongue” without the “body!” Thus, I see this as a description of what will happen immediately AFTER the resurrection of the unjust, and not between the unjust rich man’s event of dying and his resurrection to condemnation.
Then you said,…
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
“Furthermore, Jesus tells the thief on His right where they will be when they die and that is paradise, so I think the word is important. Their souls do not inhabit separate graves...”
Ah, but if he is immediately as a spirit in the New Jerusalem or is immediately (from his point of view) again in his body being resurrected to the final state, then he CAN be in “paradeisos” as was investigated earlier! Some have also suggested that the New Jerusalem will be in orbit above the second earth, above the old Jerusalem, during the 1000-year incarceration of haSatan before the earth is renovated!
Then, you said,…
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
“Paul also refutes what you say in speaking to the Corinthians where he gives a lot of detail about the resurrection of the dead. From 1Co 15:35 and onwards, Paul says that it is foolish to think that what is sown is what is raised.
“So we are not LITERALLY given our bodies back! It is NOT a natural body, but a spiritual one. Indeed, in many cases from centuries past, you'd have God re-create a natural body so He can change it. I don't think it will work like that at all from Paul's explanation.
“This does not mean that we won't be able to distinguish ourselves from one another nor that we won't be able to recognize others because the rich man was certainly able to recognize Lazarus the beggar.
“Your ideas are not in accordance with Paul's teaching, and are too simple. You do not even ask from where the dead are raised, nor do you have to have a spiritual place where they rest until they are selectively called up.
“I stand by my concept whereby there are three levels of heaven:
1. The place where the dead rest/endure (spiritually living vs. spiritually dead)
2. The place where the martyred Saints wait.
3. The presence of God where Jesus is now.”
Now, wait just one minute! I DO NOT believe that Paul would “refute” what others have said in Scriptures!
Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV
I believe in the inspiration of the WHOLE of God’s Word, the Bible! Therefore, Iyov’s (Job’s) words are JUST as true as are Paul’s, and since BOTH were inspired to write by the same God who never changes, they will not contradict each other! “YET IN MY FLESH shall I see God!” THAT’S the Resurrection!
Now, since YOU used the word (“spiritual”), you’ve opened up the next couple of definitions:
“Spiritual” is the word that was used to translate “pneumatikos,” which is the adjective form of “pneuma.” (However, be aware that there is also one occurrence where “pneuma” itself was translated as “spiritual.”)
“Natural” is one word that was used to translate “psuchikos,” which is the adjective form of “psuchee.” (The other word is “sensual,” although for I Cor. 15, “natural” is the word.)
Paul used these two words as contrasts regarding the Resurrection. Our bodies are “planted” as “natural” bodies, but they will be resurrected as “spiritual” bodies.
So, let’s let Paul tell us the difference. Now, let’s be fair! It’s not allowed to use our preconceived definitions of “spiritual” and “natural” to determine what Paul “meant” in I Corinthians 15 BY using the terms! That would be circular reasoning. So, here goes:
1 Cor. 15:35-58
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
KJV
So, let’s list them:
BEFORE the event of dying:
1. Natural (Greek: psuchikos) – “breather-of-air-like”
2. Terrestrial (Greek: epigeia) – “above/upon-earth-like”
3. The first man Adam (Greek: ho prootos anthroopos Adam) – “the original human Adam”
4. Living soul (Greek: eis psucheen zoosan) – “into [a] living breather-of-air”
5. The first man … of the earth (Greek: ho prootos anthroopos ek geis) – “the original human out [of] earth”
6. Earthy (Greek: choikos) – “soil-like”
7. Flesh and blood (Greek: sarx kai haima) – “muscle and blood”
8. Corruption (Greek: fthora, ftharton) – “decay”
9. Mortal (Greek: thneeton) – “liable to die”
AFTER the event of resurrection:
1. Spiritual (Greek: pneumatikos) – “blaster-of-air-like”
2. Celestial (Greek: epourania) – “above/upon-sky-like”
3. The last Adam [Yeshua`] (Greek: ho eschatos Adam) – “the final Adam”
4. Quickening spirit (Greek: eis pneuma zoo-opoioun ) – “into [a] life-giving blaster-of-air”
5. The second man (the Lord) from heaven (Greek: ho dueteros anthroopos ex ouranou) – “the second human out [of] sky” [Most of the oldest Greek texts don’t have the words “ho kurios” and there’s a great degree of certainty that it wasn’t there originally, although it certainly fits the Second Human, Yeshua` haMashiach.]
6. Heavenly (Greek: epouranios) – “of or from above-sky”
7. The Kingdom of God (Greek: basileian Theou) – “kingdom [of] God”; “God’s kingdom”
8. Incorruption (Greek: aftharsian) – “no decay”; “undecaying”
9. Immortality (Greek: athanasian) – “no dying”; “deathlessness”
BOTH sets are physical, but the second set is definitely the stronger! No decay! No dying! Not just able to live, but being able to give life! Not just able to breathe air, but being able to blast with air like the wind!
So,…
YES! I believe emphatically that we are LITERALLY given our bodies back! You are right that the body BECOMES a spiritual one rather than just a natural one. Furthermore, God will re-create the natural body as the supernatural body with the changes already in place; “the dead shall be raised incorruptible.” Then, the living children of God will just have their natural bodies changed; “we shall be changed.” He will NOT have to “re-create a natural body so He can change it.” Looking at the text, I think that’s EXACTLY how it will work from Paul's explanation!
Ponder on!
Retrobyter
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