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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/4/2008 12:29:07 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 4871
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
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My dad is a pastor and has been leader of several churches including some really small, rural churches. The Lord has ALWAYS provided without him getting up and asking everybody to chip in a full paycheck.
I agree. Likewise, we tithe even when we know there is a bill that might not get paid and we have yet to have a month where there was not enough money(other then frivolous spending but that's our own fault).
We have had times when we have tithed "religiously" like that and not spent money on silly things and have had no money for food. But we gave what we could.
I think there can be a bit of legalism and bondage in the 10% thing.
Oh and the money is planned to be spent on things like doing things in the sunday school room, drum kit, upgrading electricity stuff.
I don't think it's legalistic nor is there "bondage" in the way we tithe. We tithe because we feel it is what the Lord would have us do and He has not let us down. Not even last year when Micah wasn't working did we ever go without food or shelter, or even the clothing we needed. I think it has alot to do with your heart attitude. If you do it unto the Lord in service to Him it is different then if you just do it because it's biblical.
As for the upgrades, those are done out of a special offering at our church and it's a "give as you feel led" sort of thing.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/4/2008 11:26:18 PM
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uponeagleswings
Posts: 1628
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Tithing 10% is a conviction that we feel, but I don't see it as being legalistic for us. We don't tithe to earn our way into heaven, we do it because its how we feel called to give back a portion of what God has given to us. I don't believe that everyone has to share that conviction, although I do believe that people should give as they feel led to, and that often means giving sacrificially, regardless of the amount or percentage.
I think something being a legalism/bondage issue, as opposed to a conviction, is more related to our hearts ABOUT the issue, than the issue itself. Being dresses only could be legalistic if the woman believed that EVERYONE should be dresses only, and that it was a ticket to heaven. If a woman has decided to be dresses only because she studied Scripture on the topic and is following a personal conviction of her heart out of loving obedience, then I don't see that as being legalistic.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/5/2008 1:31:54 AM
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nicole6598
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I believe that some churches can make it legalistic for people to tithe. I do 10% but that's because I enjoy giving that back, some people would struggle with 10% and some people want to give more. I wasn't meaning that anyone here is legalistic.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/5/2008 1:14:19 PM
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purejoy
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Nicole, I agree with you that the number 10% itself can become legalistic. For us, we prayed and prayed and tithe 10% because that's what we feel the Lord is leading us to do, but we also felt very convicted that that 10% is not all we should give..that's what we should tithe, and give above and beyond that. If that makes sense. If we feel that the Lord is leading us to tithe 20% or 8%, then that's what we should do.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/5/2008 6:28:03 PM
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nicole6598
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Lexie that story is sad!! Yeah some weeks we can give 10% some weeks we cant, but like I said we have a child sponsor, we give to charity's, we help friends if they need it and we serve our church in the form of being on 2 boards. So I know that is blessing God, its the church that makes us feel like that's not enough.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/6/2008 11:31:17 AM
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lexie
Posts: 2959
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From: Toronto
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There was a woman at my mother's church who would tell her friends that their problems were a result of not tithing enough. When her friends car broke down (again) and she was worried she couldn't afford to fix it, this woman's first response was "did you ever think that you're just not tithing enough?"
No wonder we have people thinking they can buy their way into heaven.
Beth - that's cool that the women were standing strong and not wearing their hijabs. That is one issue that always gets me here. I have a question for you - at what age do you find women there generally have their daughter's starting to wear the hijab? I know there are different streams of thought, and I've heard some say at puberty, some say at age 7 but there are children here who are in strollers with pacifiers in their mouths wearing the hijab, and that is getting on my nerves.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 7:49:31 AM
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ThursdaysChild
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Generally it's puberty or there abouts. I know of one family (I heard about them from a friend) where the daughter is probably in her teens or so and wants to wear hijab (or does she want to cover?) and the dad won't let her. He said she can do that when she gets married but for now he doesn't want her to.
As for tithing, sometimes I wonder if we should but DH is against it, so I just try to have something with me on Friday mornings (or at least more cash on hand at home to pick up when we go home to take the dog out before heading to lunch). I'm not real good about remembering to do that and then I'm embarassed to not have anything handy for the bag.
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Live your life in such a way that every morning when your feet hit the floor...Satan shudders and says..."Oh No...she's AWAKE!"
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 1:32:56 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I'm watching the church service for my old church. They have a local station and I think they're on the web also. I've always had issues with them... it's a church/school thing, and I went to and graduated from the school (first grade til I graduated). Over the years I noticed some messed up things. They didn't believe in blacks and whites marrying or dating...but any other interracial couple they'd accept. I really didn't put up a fuss about anything; I was a good kid.
Then I found out (I still have friends there, and every once in a while I'll run into a teacher, etc) that two teachers who were married to each other got a divorce. I remember when the teachers got married, and none of us really thought it was a good idea. But we figured they were confident they were making the right choice. The problem is, if you get a divorce at this school/church you have to leave. SOMETIMES they'll befriend the person who was "in the right." But I think in the case of the teachers, they just weren't meant to be together and parted ways. I don't think one abused the other or anything like that. Both teachers taught at the school and went to the church (one is the son of a teacher and deacon and also an alumnus). They told both teachers they had to leave since they were divorcing. One teacher willingly left; the other had to be fired. The church will shun you for a divorce-- everyone knows that, and I hear they both ended up moving away. One of them had taught me and my sister (sis is an '89 grad; I'm an '04 grad)... the other teacher she went to school with in high school and they went to the same college. So basically the wife had taught the husband in high school.
Anyway, the church does a lot of things I disagree with, but they do teach the Bible...at least in word. Do you think it's okay for the church to basically ostracize one if they are divorced or treat them badly for it, and/or (in this case) fire them from their jobs?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 3:06:29 PM
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lexie
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I don't think it's okay for the church to ostracize someone for something such as divorce, if anything they should be there to support the person and to encourage the person.
Our church doesn't believe in remarriage. We feel that if you need to leave your marriage then you should separate, but remain unmarried in the hopes of reconciliation. If someone were to divorce, and then bring a new partner into the church you can bet that they would be talked to (using scripture), but in the end, no one would ever be kicked out of the church. I can't see where any good would come of it.
We were talking a few weeks ago about if someone was sinning and wanted to continue in sin should they leave the church or remain. The general consensus was the person should remain in church, where they will not only receive lots of prayer but where the hopes are that they will hear something that will spur them to change their ways.
As for being fired from their job, if it is a church rule (whether it is a good one or ridiculous one) the person should have known that they would be asked to leave their job. The churches stance on things seems pretty strange to me though.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 3:19:35 PM
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solo_soprano22
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It's not a rule or regulation. They do what they feel like.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 3:24:06 PM
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BrowneyedAL
Posts: 558
Joined: 2/26/2008
From: North Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
I believe that some churches can make it legalistic for people to tithe.
yup..and that's exactly why my grandparents stopped going to church when my mom was 11yo (because they were approached by someone on the board about them "not giving enough")...and have never gone back to church since then (except for the occasional time for special events, like when they were visiting my mom and we had Jack dedicated...very rare though)
That's quite sad really...unfortunately I think that there are a lot of churches that make people feel uncomfortable about their level of giving and I think that is very wrong. First off, I personally believe that God wants me to give from my heart...be that a tithe or more or even less...he wants it to be from my desire to give cheerfully. I don't feel that it is my place to tell someone else what God wants them to give...nor do I believe that it's their place to tell me either.
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Lisa
I have learned in whatever state I am to be content (Philippians 4:11)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 4:19:30 PM
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bride48
Posts: 5706
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Near Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'm watching the church service for my old church. They have a local station and I think they're on the web also. I've always had issues with them... it's a church/school thing, and I went to and graduated from the school (first grade til I graduated). Over the years I noticed some messed up things. They didn't believe in blacks and whites marrying or dating...but any other interracial couple they'd accept. I really didn't put up a fuss about anything; I was a good kid.
Then I found out (I still have friends there, and every once in a while I'll run into a teacher, etc) that two teachers who were married to each other got a divorce. I remember when the teachers got married, and none of us really thought it was a good idea. But we figured they were confident they were making the right choice. The problem is, if you get a divorce at this school/church you have to leave. SOMETIMES they'll befriend the person who was "in the right." But I think in the case of the teachers, they just weren't meant to be together and parted ways. I don't think one abused the other or anything like that. Both teachers taught at the school and went to the church (one is the son of a teacher and deacon and also an alumnus). They told both teachers they had to leave since they were divorcing. One teacher willingly left; the other had to be fired. The church will shun you for a divorce-- everyone knows that, and I hear they both ended up moving away. One of them had taught me and my sister (sis is an '89 grad; I'm an '04 grad)... the other teacher she went to school with in high school and they went to the same college. So basically the wife had taught the husband in high school.
Anyway, the church does a lot of things I disagree with, but they do teach the Bible...at least in word. Do you think it's okay for the church to basically ostracize one if they are divorced or treat them badly for it, and/or (in this case) fire them from their jobs?
From what you've written, they didn't divorce for Biblical reasons, and therefore they should not be teaching in a Christian school. Although they probably shouldn't have married in the first place, once they made that covenant, they had a sacred responsibility to keep it. By divorcing, they're teaching the students by example that the marriage covenant depends on personal comfort rather than commitment.
You've raised two seperate issues, really. The issue of being shunned by the church is complex, and it would take me a long time to type out all the various ways of looking at that matter. But I believe the issue of being dismissed from their jobs is clear-cut. Divorce for any reason other than adultery and abuse is sin, and people who live in persistant sin must not hold leadership positions. Teaching in a Christian school is spiritual leadership. As far as the school issue goes, dismissal was entirely appropriate and necessary.
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Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Ending 2008 and Starting 2009 In Christ Alone (my latest blog entry)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 4:37:08 PM
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solo_soprano22
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Correction. I don't think anyone knows why they got divorced, BUT there are speculated reasons. People speculate it was for personal reasons, but I can't say there wasn't something behind it. They felt the need to keep the reasons private. I have no clue if there was abuse, infidelity, etc. (I do know that something happened that caused them problems in the marriage, but not sure what-- I did assume then that there could have been abuse or adultery). I'm not sure if anyone knows, but it's apparent that they have assumed why they divorced. The papers may be public record (not sure what things are and what things are not), but even if they are, I'm sure they didn't bother to find out what's true...UNLESS they've changed their ways recently. If you give no reason or keep it from them, then (to them) it was just because you couldn't or didn't get along.  I'm not sure if that should be "fair" or not, but that's what happens there.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 4:55:54 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Correction. I don't think anyone knows why they got divorced, BUT there are speculated reasons. People speculate it was for personal reasons, but I can't say there wasn't something behind it. They felt the need to keep the reasons private. I have no clue if there was abuse, infidelity, etc. (I do know that something happened that caused them problems in the marriage, but not sure what-- I did assume then that there could have been abuse or adultery). I'm not sure if anyone knows, but it's apparent that they have assumed why they divorced. The papers may be public record (not sure what things are and what things are not), but even if they are, I'm sure they didn't bother to find out what's true...UNLESS they've changed their ways recently. If you give no reason or keep it from them, then (to them) it was just because you couldn't or didn't get along. I'm not sure if that should be "fair" or not, but that's what happens there.
If they wouldn't give a reason, the dismissal was valid. As Christian leaders, they needed to be above reproach. By failing to offer Biblical reasons for the divorce, they set an example for their students that the marriage covenant can be taken lightly. Children must be taught that marriage is sacred!
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DebbieLynne
Ending 2008 and Starting 2009 In Christ Alone (my latest blog entry)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 5:17:08 PM
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solo_soprano22
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Dismissal from the church and from the jobs? Or just the jobs?
I see wanting to keep things private, especially if it's private in nature, and there's no rule that you will be dismissed if you get a divorce. That's what gets me. I think had it been a rule, I could understand that(because they would have taken the job knowing that that would happen). I'd think it'd be easy to add that to the list...anyone who's divorced and doesn't give reason (or has a bad one) can no longer teach here. My issue is that they KNOW they'll fire them, yet they don't make this known until they starting firing. To me, you make the rule, let people know it beforehand or as soon as the rule is made, then if they break it, it's on them. That's not what they do. I'd want any job I take to be that way...whether it's in handbook I have to read or told to me verbally. Makes sense to me, but maybe I'm the only one. Lol.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 5:48:52 PM
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bride48
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I stated in my first post about this matter that I would limit my comments to the issue about the jobs, since the church issue is much more complex.
Naturally, I haven't seen the school's employee's handbook, but I'd guess that it had a clause about the necessity of living up to Biblical standards. Whether or not divorce was specified, I'd think it was a given (particularly considering the church's position on divorce). In addition, the Bible is clear regarding divorce, as well as the fact that God holds those in leadership ministry to higher standards.
James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
NKJV
Teaching in a Christian school is more than a job--it's a ministry. It entails moral responsibilities, especially because teachers are examples to those in their care. Any violation of Biblical conduct (including divorce) requires removal from ministry. That should be a no-brainer.
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Joyfully,
DebbieLynne
Ending 2008 and Starting 2009 In Christ Alone (my latest blog entry)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 6:45:18 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10187
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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Kinda related...
Is there room for sin (specifically divorce) in the past in leaders?
For instance, Pastor Joe was married young and divorced a few years later. He became a Christian years later, and his ex-wife is remarried. He marries again, has three children, goes to seminary and then is hired on as part of a pastoral team.
Is this Biblical? Why or why not?
If this is not okay, why are other sins in the past okay? We've all fallen short...
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He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him;
He hears their cry and saves them.
The Lord watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked He will destroy.
~Psalm 145:19-20~
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/8/2008 7:39:43 PM
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solo_soprano22
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That's kind of what I'm thinking, Donna, but I do believe in divorce (depending on the reasons for it).
I do wonder, if the person is divorced but never wanted to be (a couple separates, one wants a divorce and it is granted while the othr person never wanted one and never signed the papers, etc), does the same thing hold for them? I know it happens.
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It struck a (good) chord for me, because it came down to conviction, something I've been struggling to explain to some people recently. 
Good for them!
