RE: Kicka, part 3 (Full Version)

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solo_soprano22 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 3:13:40 PM)

Re: Helping the Needy

I remember in Christian ethics we discussed the poor and Christians' responsibility; I decided to write a paper on it (we had to write four, on any topics we discussed in class). I tend to have a different view of it than even most Christians... but it goes in favor of the poor. I won't discuss it here because I don't feel like putting on the flame-retardant suit, but I don't think the world is supposed to be in the state it's in. The state of the poor isn't supposed to be this bad with all us Christians in it; I feel that Christians aren't doing their job well. I really think some churches/Christians have gotten worldly ideas dealing with wealth as well. Even my church does this (IMO); we spend exorbitant amounts on things we shouldn't and things that really just don't matter, and almost nothing on the poor/sick.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 4:21:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spitzu

But the believers ARE the church... so I think it goes both ways.

[sm=thumbsup.gif][sm=thumbsup.gif][sm=thumbsup.gif]I agree with that too. LOL...ok, seriously I am not being fickle, but I can see both sides)...I do agree that it goes both ways though. There is the church as a people, a body of believers...then there is the church as a business. Sometimes the actions of the church is for the people, and sometimes it is for the business



KatMack -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 4:29:52 PM)

Yes, the church IS the body of believers, but as Sarah said, there is another organism that goes by the name "church." It's the organizational, business-ish, meeting together aspect of the church (what the world thinks of when they hear the word church) that should be equipping the real church- the body of believers.

Does that make any sense?

--Kat



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 4:53:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatMack

Yes, the church IS the body of believers, but as Sarah said, there is another organism that goes by the name "church." It's the organizational, business-ish, meeting together aspect of the church (what the world thinks of when they hear the word church) that should be equipping the real church- the body of believers.

Does that make any sense?

--Kat

yeah thats what I meant...thanks Kat!!



spitzu -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 5:26:21 PM)

Yep, but I don't know that I fully agree with what you're saying. Since we the believers are what the church is (minus the building), then I don't see a problem with filtering some of our efforts to reach the lost/poor through the business/building aspect of it. I don't think the church's (business/building/whatever) sole mission is to equip the body, that's just one facet of it. A large group of believers/business/whatever can accomplish a lot more than the people alone can do sometimes.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 6:57:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spitzu

Yep, but I don't know that I fully agree with what you're saying. Since we the believers are what the church is (minus the building), then I don't see a problem with filtering some of our efforts to reach the lost/poor through the business/building aspect of it. I don't think the church's (business/building/whatever) sole mission is to equip the body, that's just one facet of it. A large group of believers/business/whatever can accomplish a lot more than the people alone can do sometimes.

I can see that too...and agree with it. Church way back when used to not be a business...now days it is. I see no problem with it being in the business of equipping the body AND of being an outreach to the community in ways they need (and an example to the body of those needs). I also think that a church who's heart isn't in that kind of mission work but instead is into another kind isn't doing a bad thing by not getting involved in that. I think that's really where the heart of the ministry of the pastor and the people in the church can really be seen. Some churches have a huge heart for inner city ministry....so they focus there. Some have a heart for overseas mission, so the focus there. Some have a heart for the older missions, so they focus there. If all the churches did the mission work they had in their heart then I don't think there would be a lapse in any town of needs not getting met...because I feel that God places those heart's desires there for a reason....but it's up to us as the body of believers to get involved in that heart's passion.



spitzu -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 7:19:10 PM)

Yep! There you go! Our last church had a heart for oversees missions, Africa specifically (we had many members from Africa, even) and it was a beautiful thing. There's no way that the members alone could have accomplished what the "church" did as a whole. I think in some cases people use church giving/participation as an excuse to not do anything else for the needy, but others use it in meaningful ways and as sometimes the only ways they can. But I fully agree with what you said there, that if churches did what God is telling them to do, then we'd have far less problems. I'd also extend that right down to each individual person as well as a church body as a whole.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 7:32:54 PM)

quote:

But I fully agree with what you said there, that if churches did what God is telling them to do, then we'd have far less problems. I'd also extend that right down to each individual person as well as a church body as a whole.
yup!!



ofa23 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/3/2008 8:00:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: magdaleine

Ofa, I love your signature! I wish more Christians agreed.


Thanks I love it, too! [:D][:D] I think its very fitting for these forums. [;)]



purejoy -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/4/2008 3:38:30 PM)

I guess I would clarify it even more...
Yes as a whole "the church" should be equipping and ministering. But specifically, I think "the church" pastor/pastoral staff should be doing the majority of the equipping. In turn, as "the church" members our response to that equipping should be ministry.

If that makes sense...



KatMack -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/5/2008 12:22:03 PM)

quote:

I think in some cases people use church giving/participation as an excuse to not do anything else for the needy, but others use it in meaningful ways and as sometimes the only ways they can.


I guess my concern is that I see the MAJORITY of people falling into that first category.

I've run into another area that many Christians are giving up their responsibilities. That's family discipleship. Our church has just started a new ministry to equip parents to disciple their children at home and I've realized how much I personally was relying on the church to do that.

--Kat



spitzu -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/5/2008 2:20:21 PM)

But how do you know for sure that they're stopping there?

Many things people do are behind closed doors, or aren't spoken about to others.



KatMack -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/5/2008 3:36:25 PM)

True, but I've met MANY people that announce that they give to their church so they don't have to do anything or that it's the government's job to take care of the poor. It's hard to argue with their own words.

--Kat



ncgrlnhisgrip -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 12:56:18 PM)

Bumping kicka back up to its rightful place at the top of the page! [;)]

The truth is, I believe we've let the government take the place of the church for so many years in taking care of the poor, I'm not sure how the church gets that back. I'm not sure that in this country, there are people who are destitute unless they choose it. I work in the construction/housing industry and I know that there is no one in this state that needs a place to live that is not provided with one- it may be a shelter, or a YMCA gymnasium, but there are places. I do work for habitat for humanity, and those folks give away houses every year- thousands of houses - to people who otherwise wouldn't have a home. When one of the builders I work with approached the church about doing something similar, their answer was, "why? That's what Habitat is for." So we've obviously passed the buck in that department. Let someone else take care of it...



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 1:19:51 PM)

quote:

When one of the builders I work with approached the church about doing something similar, their answer was, "why? That's what Habitat is for."

those kinds of statements make me sad[&:][:(]



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 1:29:26 PM)

quote:

I'm not sure that in this country, there are people who are destitute unless they choose it.


I don't know if I can agree with that on a whole, but what I do see is a lot more people in financial situations they have no business being in. People are just not financially knowledgable anymore and then they just figure that there are others to bail them out when they've made a mistake.

And the reason why that annoys me so much right now is we just had someone ask to borrow a large chunk of money from us (large compared to how much money we have.) Both husband and wife work full time and they make more than double than Dh makes (and I don't work) and they are asking to borrow money because they can't pay all of their bills this month.



KatMack -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 4:04:12 PM)

Financial education is definitely lacking big-time in this country. I wish I knew what I know now 10 years ago... I'd be able to be a SAHM then! Well, I'm doing my part... I'm leading my third Financial Peace University class starting Sunday. [;)] I have one couple in my class that is completely unchurched, so pray that I can be a great witness to them.

--Kat



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 7:02:45 PM)

quote:

I'm not sure that in this country, there are people who are destitute unless they choose it.
I spend time with people on the streets and while there may be shelters available, that's not housing. They can't be at the shelter between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. even if it's -50 with the windchill. Nearly every form of housing, even shelters for the homeless and Habitat for Humanity, have certain requirements that not everyone can meet for various reasons. Think of those with addictions. We can say that they've made that choice but that's not always true and even when it is true, it's not easy to get free. If you question that, think of something in your life that you wish you could change but can't. What if your entire well-being seemed dependent on keeping that thing, even though you know in your head that it is bad for you and you don't want it? What if that thing kept you from getting some of your basic necessities?



danas_mom -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 8:35:52 PM)

I highly recommend the movie 'Pursuit of Happyness' for a real life look into what it's like to be homeless in this country, and the struggle to bring yourself out of it.

This is one of my hot button topics. I probably shouldn't dive too deeply into this conversation.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 9:46:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: danas_mom

I highly recommend the movie 'Pursuit of Happyness' for a real life look into what it's like to be homeless in this country, and the struggle to bring yourself out of it.

This is one of my hot button topics. I probably shouldn't dive too deeply into this conversation.


I really think it's perspective sometimes, and I find that often people aren't factoring in all of the possibilities when it comes to these things...and other things. I remember when I was younger being in sociology, and thinking back on "I never thought of that..." when we were discussing why things/situations are the way they are, including poverty/homelessness. I know it happens with everything though. :)

I don't think we have shelters here that people can literally live in. None I've volunteered at were that way. One of them would help with housing, but the person eventually had to take over payments, etc. They gave them time to get a job, etc. though.



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 9:48:17 PM)

I've added the movie to my list. Thanks.



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 10:40:00 PM)

quote:

I highly recommend the movie 'Pursuit of Happyness' for a real life look into what it's like to be homeless in this country, and the struggle to bring yourself out of it.


It's a great movie.

I think it's hard to understand until you are in that situation. Many, many people are literally one paycheque away from the street, and often people don't realize that. From the outside, my MIL has a nice house, but on the inside, she can't afford rent and bills AND groceries on her disability payment (cancer has left her unable to work.)

We don't often think of people who are living paycheque to paycheque already, and then they get sick. If they don't have health insurance, then what are they to do.



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/10/2008 11:14:07 PM)

yeah. It's so very, very difficult for far too many people. The lucky ones are able to rent a room in a booze-can hotel. One of my street friends lives in such a situation. She has no lock on her door and uses table knives stuck through the door frame to keep people out while she's sleeping. For a week they had no hot water. To get to her room, she has to pass the stale-beer stink of the bar that most alcoholics would disdain. She has grandchildren that wanted to come to visit her this summer but children are not allowed into the hotel rooms (probably for the children's protection). She wanted to find a better place so she could have her grandchildren for a bit but it's not easy. Still, she's better off than the those who have only the shelters.



McGuinessMagee -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/11/2008 5:31:59 AM)

quote:

I highly recommend the movie 'Pursuit of Happyness' for a real life look into what it's like to be homeless in this country, and the struggle to bring yourself out of it.


'Our House' is another good one.

This is a button presser for me too, and more so now that I work within a low socioeconomic demographic.

Consider this circle -
a person who is just making it financially loses a job;
their ex-employer won't release their separation certificate immediately;
they can't get benefits without that separation certificate for eight weeks;
if the separation certificate turns up they might get back paid;
if it doesn't they definitely won't;
they just cannot seem to land a new job;
the stress of it all makes them more and more desperate at job interviews and therefore employers, sensing something really isn't good in that person's life right now, get less and less inclined to employ someone who is so desperate;
rent has to be paid two weeks in advance;
they get served an eviction notice once they get two weeks in arrears;
they have no money coming in for food, petrol, electricity or rent;
even charity help won't cover all that;
it takes between two and four weeks for an eviction notice to go through the Tribunal;
by that stage they may just have started receiving benefits but they're now six to eight weeks behind in rent on a house they were barely making the payments for when they were earning a much higher income;
they have no way to pay the back rent even though they are now receiving benefits - they can barely, with rental assistance, pay the the weekly rent;
they get evicted;
because they were desperately trying to hold on with all they had they didn't move out before the sheriff's notice saying the real estate agent had permission to have the locks changed;
all their possessions are locked inside the house which now legally belongs to the landlord;
it takes however long it takes (up to 30 days from memory) for the real estate to have the possessions collated and auctioned off at which time they will get the balance of whatever was not owed to the landlord (and their stuff has been sold without reserve because the agents don't care whether they're sold for true value as long as their client's costs are covered;
they can't get a new job because no-one will hire someone who doesn't have a fixed address;
they try once, twice, maybe three times to get out of the situation they've found themselves in, each time losing a little more hope that this time they will succeed;
eventually they become the crazy guy in the blanket who sits on the bench outside the local train station each morning, the one you're not quite willing to make eye contact with, and they're trying to warm up in the sun because they slept behind the dumpster again last night as there was no room at the shelter because there are 1000 other people just like them trying for the same shelter;
they don't cry or make a noise;
they live in an area of town where it's normal

Kylie[sm=silly.gif]



PrincessDonna -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (9/11/2008 8:02:01 AM)

quote:

We don't often think of people who are living paycheque to paycheque already, and then they get sick. If they don't have health insurance, then what are they to do.


Or get in a car accident, even with insurance.[&:]

If we did not have our church and family behind us, and rent from someone from church who is willing to wait for the rent, we would be homeless. If not now, very shortly, we would be.

One of the saddest things I saw while on a mission's trip to NYC was a family, with a baby and a toddler, living in a refrigerator box. Outside in February in NYC.[:(] I don't know their story, but I know it could happen to more people than think it could happen to them.



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