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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/12/2008 2:16:51 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1999
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
We are obviously in different camps of the church. But that's ok. We'll be in heaven one day and we'll be able to all know all the wonderful things that were happening in the spiritual realm while we were on earth that we couldn't see fully.
God bless, Ben.
Thanks SD!
It may surprise you that I am Pentecostal, speak in tongues, have seen demons, have prophesied, and have had prophetic dreams myself. Don't worry. I am not against these kind of things. John Paul just worries me. And I am still looking for some solid info on Goll.
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-Ben-
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/12/2008 2:23:19 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1501
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
We are obviously in different camps of the church. But that's ok. We'll be in heaven one day and we'll be able to all know all the wonderful things that were happening in the spiritual realm while we were on earth that we couldn't see fully.
God bless, Ben.
Thanks SD!
It may surprise you that I am Pentecostal, speak in tongues, have seen demons, have prophesied, and have had prophetic dreams myself. Don't worry. I am not against these kind of things. John Paul just worries me. And I am still looking for some solid info on Goll.
I'm not surprised. I didn't mean different denominations. I mean God has had us in different places spiritually and we've obviously experienced different things and have come to different conclusions. And in a way we are in different camps since I trust John Paul and Goll and you don't trust them; that in itself will put us in a different camp of thinking.
And our spiritual upbringing has been different, too. The Holy Spirit has revealed things to you that He hasn't yet revealed to me and vice versa. We'll eventually all get to the same understanding in heaven though.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/12/2008 2:27:50 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 657
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Well can I write that when you have a 14,500 sf home and there are only two of you in it. Or you have a Bentley in the garage, or anything else that might lead another person to think you appear to be selfish with your money. They will take your money and feed the poor so that they look good. But where in the world have they sacrificed themselves for the cause.
I'm some what tired of people who will say to tithe your money and God will pour out the money to you. Knowing that some of us are really hurting. It's now you must receive a anointing on you. Because the tithing isn't just good enough to get rich now. They are singing a different tune today, because they misquoted the scriptures and people who think of the god money are upset with them. I am not going to throw them total under the bus, but if one person comes to the true knowledge of God. Then their trash is all worth it.
< Message edited by mcleod -- 3/12/2008 2:36:58 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/12/2008 2:46:32 PM
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YvonneW
Posts: 25
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To Wintery:
quote:
Saying that Jacob's ladder justifies the portals fantasy is like saying because Jonah was swallowed by a fish and survived, we should all jump overboard and try to get eaten.
 Thanks for my first laugh of the day! My sides still ache!
Y
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/12/2008 2:49:43 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1250
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From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I fully believe that there are places where angels ascend and descend, just as shown in Jacobs dream, as I fully believe that there are truly angels that are in the throne room just like John saw.
I wouldn't think they were limited to spiritual escalators.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I think that your assumption that it's not real is incorrect.
I didn't say it wasn't real. But what is "it"? The dream doesn't establish the portals teaching, doesn't imply that the angels were limited to one place--maybe they can put their ladder down where they want.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
And I trust John Paul's many years of mature experience in these things.
I wonder why--seriously.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Actually it does include our sanctified imagination. God said that "He is able to do exceedingly abundantly more than we could ever think (imagine) or ask." So the truth is, if we can imagine it, God actually does far more stranger, wilder and wonderful things than that. So much so, that we cannot even in our imagination picture what God is doing.
No doubt there, but I look at the source and the amount of what is being said that comes from someone's new revelation and see if it's reasonable or likely imagination. SD456, have you ever met a new revelation that you didn't like? (besides mine, of course) :)
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/12/2008 2:50:39 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 657
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quote:
1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1 John 2:20 must be a real stickler for those who think they are more "anointed" than someone else.
Was it Goll or JPJ you heard? By the way if you try to Google info on Goll, he's one of the ones that altered his "stage name", (I'll call it that for lack of knowing any other term), from "Jim Goll". So if you look for older info use the older name.
No I didn't hear it from them exactly. But it was a person who did mention John Paul Jackson name and that caught my attention. He a preacher out of Irving, Texas.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/12/2008 5:49:50 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1501
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
I'm some what tired of people who will say to tithe your money and God will pour out the money to you. Knowing that some of us are really hurting.
Except for that's usually when God really wants us to give, when it's the hardest to trust Him for our needs. He'll always be faithful to take care of us and you can never outgive God.
quote:
But where in the world have they sacrificed themselves for the cause.
Most of the things that we sacrifice for God are hidden and only God knows about it. That includes me and you. I'm accountable to God, not to men or to the rest of the world. I don't ever need to prove to anyone that I've sacrificed for God for the cause, neither do you and neither do they.
quote:
I wouldn't think they were limited to spiritual escalators.
*L*, I don't believe that either. No more than I believe that God's presence was limited to resting on mount Sion, though He really did sit on that mountain and meet with Moses many times and that mountain is considered a holy place where God regularly visited.
quote:
I didn't say it wasn't real. But what is "it"? The dream doesn't establish the portals teaching, doesn't imply that the angels were limited to one place--maybe they can put their ladder down where they want.
True. And maybe God can have geographic places where He moves supernaturally more than other places. And maybe God can reveal that to some people if He chooses to reveal it.
quote:
No doubt there, but I look at the source and the amount of what is being said that comes from someone's new revelation and see if it's reasonable or likely imagination
I find for me that's part of the problem. My reasonable mind might discount something that is truly God because it sounds or looks foolish. I can't discern things by my gut emotion, I have to hear the Holy Spirit speak to me about it.
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SD456, have you ever met a new revelation that you didn't like? (besides mine, of course)
*L* - Your's is not a new revelation, it's an argument that I've heard many times  . But seriously, I can't think of any off hand because I don't listen to everyone in the world, just some people whom I trust. And I haven't heard anything from the people I trust that contradict scripture or God's nature as revealed in scripture.
quote:
1 John 2:20 must be a real stickler for those who think they are more "anointed" than someone else.
I think some of you read WAY more into people's ministries than they would ever say about themselves. God truly does give His children varying levels of revelation and varying levels of annointing. We all don't have the same measure of the Holy Spirit's stuff - scripture is clear on that. Because someone gets revelation from God that I don't get doesn't make me say "oh, yeah, you must think you're MORE annointed than me."
I truly WANT to hear from teachers, prophets, etc who have more experience, more revelation, more knowledge of God than me because it makes me grow.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/13/2008 11:09:23 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1250
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Because someone gets revelation from God that I don't get doesn't make me say "oh, yeah, you must think you're MORE annointed than me."
I have indeed heard ministers and others referring to differing "anointings" and different amounts of "anointing".
I don't subscribe to that concept and see it as unscriptural. All is freely received, freely given by God, and each part of the body has its role to play. Somebody might be living it more than me, or I more than someone else, but I don't believe in setting people up on a pedestal to dish out what they can get from God that supposedly someone else can't.
Is every minister in the world embracing the portals idea or not? So is God only speaking to JPJ and a few Elijah list imitators? I read one Elijah List ad that detailed a woman's ride through portals in a chariot with an angel. Whee, how special...not. If these people tried to get a job writing comic books I think they'd be turned down for their ideas being too ridiculous...and that's saying a lot!
I know I glossed over what all would be involved in considering what is reasonable and obviously that would include the Scriptures and their application along with discernment, but come on, these people come up with something new every week in some cases because their market is those who are always seeking some new thing, and "coincidentally" there is a Scriptural reference for that:
Acts 17:19-22
And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
You spoke of our Western church, well here's an early reference from the place Western culture began. Perhaps the pursuit of the latest "revelation" is actually more pagan than Christian. No offence intended, it's just something to think about.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/13/2008 6:37:55 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1160
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Note: These links may have changed since I last looked and I apologize that don't have time to update them right now, but the quotes are/were directly from John Paul Jackson on his official website as of last year. Enjoy.
LINK
quote:
I had to understand that God does not judge us for the number of times we fail in our attempts to advance the Kingdom, but for the number of times we succeed. We will find that the number of times we succeed is usually in proportion to the number of times we try. Whether it is praying for someone to be healed, to be delivered, or for giving a prophecy -- the more we try, the greater we will succeed and the more we will become attuned to the ebb and flow of God's Holy Spirit.
Yes, he just admitted he's a false prophet and believes in 'growing' in the prophetic gift. There's nothing like speaking falsely in God's name to mislead and confuse both believers and unbelievers alike. Jackson has made God out to be a liar.
LINK
quote:
God delights in revealing Himself to those who love His appearing and to those who watch for His coming. One of the marvelous mysteries of God is the existence of portals -- doors and passageways -- leading to and from the heavenly realms. When you are standing in a portal, it feels like an open Heaven.
A heavenly portal is a spherical opening of light that offers divine protection
by which angels and heavenly beings can come and go, without demonic interference. God has designed portals to begin in the third Heaven, travel through the second Heaven, and open upon Earth.
... All of which has absolutely no basis in scripture. Most here should be seeing some serious red flags by now.
LINK
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Clearly, the revelatory arena seen in the Church today does not have the same weightiness as that of the Old Testament prophets. Perhaps there will never again be prophets who operate at a level that produces in written form the very words of God. However, in the coming days many greatly gifted people will arise within the Body of Christ.
Over the years, I have had my identity and self-worth tested by a title. As I responded wrongly to tests and failed to prophesy accurately, I discovered all too well the effects of a blow to the ego. Perhaps in letting us fail, God teaches us how to decrease, so that He might increase. Often it is His good pleasure to crush us, so that more of Him can be poured out through our lives.
There are only two categories and 'levels' of prophets in the Bible: True, and false.
LINK
quote:
Our children have an amazing destiny awaiting them. They are a part of a prophetic generation foretold in Scripture by the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28-32). Although the Holy Spirit had rested upon prophets and priests in the past, he described a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, prophetic utterances would arise from young children not just those who are mature in the Lord.
As our children mature in Christ, they will walk in greater anointing and hear from God more clearly than previous generations. They will perform miraculous signs and wonders and accomplish great exploits for the Kingdom of God. They will boldly speak forth God's Word to a lost and dying world. Many will lay down their lives for the cause of Jesus Christ.
This generation will resemble Joel's mighty army trained to walk in obedience, patience and endurance. They will have supernatural strength and great courage, the like of which has never been seen on the Earth (Joel 2:1-11).
Super Special Spirit Squad... Away!!! This is the stuff of comic books, and the 'Joel's army' garbage is apparently still making the rounds. What is up with this inane notion that God is going to pour His Spirit out on a particular generation who we are supposed to look to for God's 'extra special' revelation?? God either pours His Spirit out on all Christians, or He doesn't. He either indwells us now, or He doesn't.
We don't 'kind of sort of' have the Spirit now. We're not waiting for a 'super generation' to come along and show us the way. Christ *is* the way. Christ *is* the Prophet and has revealed His word IN FULL. Christ *has* poured His spirit out on every Christian.
Jackson just does not get it.
Edit to add: wintery, after posting this on the fly I finally had a moment to read through more of this thread and saw your replies. Kind of funny that we both saw this as a comic book moment.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 3/13/2008 8:54:10 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/13/2008 7:10:12 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1160
Joined: 7/22/2005
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More John Paul Jackson:
LINK
quote:
A short time ago, I received a phone call from a friend and a wonderful prophetic seer, Bob Jones. In our conversation, Bob told me about a night vision in which he wrestled a demon that resembled a well known Christian leader. The Lord told Bob it was a demon, and not the leader. He also told Bob the demon was from the highest (fifth) level in the demonic realm. Its mission was to appear in people's dreams in order to discredit godly leaders and ministries. Masquerading as a Christian leader, this demon would do and say horrific things to frighten people from supporting the leader's ministry.
After wrestling most of the night with this demon, Bob was finally able to grab a nearby monkey wrench and hit the demon in the head. His action was symbolic of throwing a wrench into, or disrupting, the enemy's plans. The demon was knocked to his knees, but he got up, ran away, and shouted that he would be back.
So, how can you know if a dream is from God or the enemy? All dreams from God will be in blazing color. All dreams from the enemy will be in black and white, grayscale or muted colors at best.
Seek to move in the opposite spirit. If the enemy wants you to run away from a ministry, perhaps God wants you to embrace it.
I think that pretty much speaks for itself.
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/13/2008 7:48:57 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1501
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
but come on, these people come up with something new every week
I believe that's because God is speaking in dreams and visions to people, especially those who have a prophetic gifting, quite often. God communicates with all of us all the time in one form or another.
God gives messages to encourage His body to press on, dig in and expect God to do His will - and those communications can come regularly to people who are pressing into God regularly.
I see nothing unbiblical about a woman receiving a vision from Jesus about her soaring on a chariot or what-have-you. There is a reason for the message. And it's God who is instigating the message because God LOVES to communicate to His children. And it will always be for those who have ears to hear or for those who will take the huge amount of time on their knees that it takes to hear from God.
quote:
he just admitted he . . . believes in 'growing' in the prophetic gift.
Absolutely! I believe the same thing. The prophetic gift is no different than any other ministering gift, we need to grow in it and learn how to hear's God's voice and how to discern what we're hearing correctly.
lw9, have you had this experience? Have you ever had to discern if God was speaking to you or not in any given situation? That's exactly what happens in the prophetic gift.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 3/13/2008 7:57:09 PM >
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/13/2008 8:02:32 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1160
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
SD456: Absolutely! I believe the same thing. The prophetic gift is no different than any other ministering gift, we need to grow in it and learn how to hear's God's voice and how to discern what we're hearing correctly.
lw9, have you had this experience? Have you ever had to discern if God was speaking to you or not in any given situation? That's exactly what happens in the prophetic gift.
I'm not here to go round and round with you yet again, and surely your memory isn't that short. We've already had this discussion many, many times over, you've already asked me the same question, and I've already answered it. My time is much too short, so see previous threads. Thanks.
What I'm presenting here is the evidence and the reality of John Paul Jackson's beliefs directly from him. Everyone here is free to read it for themselves and draw their own conclusions.
As for Jackson, the Bible certainly doesn't support him, and the only defense he has for his whacked theology is "God told me". Good luck with that path.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 3/13/2008 8:15:27 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 4:43:40 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1157
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: online
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This is going to be my last post in this thread... not because I wouldn't **love** to sit here and argue this out again, but because my meekness can't take another hefty stretching. If you wish to respond to me about something I say, feel free to PM me.quote:
Bingo. As I said, Radiohead found out that doesn't work. They created an album and self-published it on their website, allowing the fans to set their own price for the music. Guess what? People would take the music for a dime, a dollar, a nickle... anything but full-price. So Radiohead had to publish the actual CD so they could actually make some money off of it. I wish the world was run by reasonable donation too, but there aren't enough people that would actually pay for the material. Let us consider how offended we get by preachers telling us in their Television programs to send them money to cover the cost of their broadcast. What do we do? We mock them for begging for our money. When people set a price, we tear them apart for "selling the Gospel".quote:
It's a false argument to talk about supporting the Gospel, etc., when we look at the merchandising of people's personal "revelations".
John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise.
2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Case in point. Next.quote:
Saying that Jacob's ladder justifies the portals fantasy is like saying because Jonah was swallowed by a fish and survived, we should all jump overboard and try to get eaten. Actually, it would be more on par with saying that Jonah's seafaring adventure proves that God controls the weather patterns and people can survive being swallowed by a fish. Jacob saw a portal... which proves that "portals" (for lack of a better term) do in fact exist.quote:
I don't know if it's "all" about the money. Some of it may be about being snared by deception, but then, if all the struggle over portals was so important to God's kingdom, why wouldn't you just post everything you know on the 'net, without slick packaging and marketing, and issue a call to battle? Maybe it is about the money and maybe it's ridiculous. Because books are more authoritative than the "net". Plus, not many people go out on the internet looking for the latest preacher teaching the "cloogy" doctrines. However, if you see a book talking about a subject you haven't thought about, you might pick it up and read it, find it interesting and buy it. As for "slick marketing", the OP hadn't even heard about either of these people when they posted... so the "slick marketing" seems to have been stuck in neutral.quote:
heard one of them talk last night and it's not about the money, buts it's about the anointing. Then in their next phrase they mention about having lots and lots of money. Paul wrote be content with what you have and not to covet. Prove they were being covetous... that isn't me being flip, that is an honest charge. If you are going to claim they are covetous, prove it.quote:
Yet when it comes to helping some less fortunate than them. Then it's to bad so sad I can't help you cause I'm trying find port holes where God breaks through the atmosphere. Yes here we are thinking that he is hearing our prays on high Isaiah 58. So at this point you are grasping at straws and not actually making real arguments. I see a lot of discussion about "What about the second commandment!", but not a lot about the first commandment.quote:
There is a "western" audience of several million that regularly purchase this type of material. That, IMO, is the disgrace of the church. The disgrace of the church is that we are very self-righteous, indignant, and practice a form of godliness while denying the power thereof. quote:
Certainly, in God's eyes, repentance brings about forgiveness. However, that does not mean that we here on earth automatically return to trusting people who have made false prophecies. I said nothing about automatically trusting people. I'm one of the most skeptical people I know as far as trusting people. The thing that scares me is that you are still viewing someone as being in error (even though you have not mentioned prophecies of his that have not come to pass) even though they have repented for that error. That means that they have repented and you are not willing to forgive them. quote:
I have read a couple hundred page dissertation full of quotes and false claims made by those involved in the Kansas City Prophets. Do I need to quote the very things that he said that never came true? I am pretty sure the words that actually came out of his mouth that contradict the word of God and have been proven false trump your couple times you have heard him talk. please tread lightly here. John Paul Jackson is not part of the Kansas City Prophets because the KCP group doesn't exist anymore. You assume I have only heard him a couple of times... and that is an assumption you cannot afford and are not qualified to make. I have heard the man publicly state that he made mistakes in the 1980's. That alone is more honor and humility than I have seen in many pastors. Once again, I will also point out that every single pastor, teacher, evangelist, and Christian, save for Jesus himself, has said something at some point that contradicts the word of God. So you showing me his errors does not lessen my respect for the man... it only proves he is human.
George Washington had a dream of three wars involving the country he was founding. One of them has not happened yet. Is he a false prophet, or has the time of the fulfillment not yet come? Your answer will tell you much about your faith in the Prophetic. quote:
They will take your money and feed the poor so that they look good. But where in the world have they sacrificed themselves for the cause. Once again, you need to prove your accusation for it to be valid... 'nough said.quote:
No doubt there, but I look at the source and the amount of what is being said that comes from someone's new revelation and see if it's reasonable or likely imagination. Considering how subjective the word "reasonable" is, you probably wouldn't like your responses from a group if that is your yardstick.quote:
have you ever met a new revelation that you didn't like? I can't speak for SD456, but I can say for myself a definite yes. For example, a certain pastor's "discovery" of Universalism. How about the Latter Rain's "revelation" of the Manifest Sons of God? There is a massive difference between these two and the Portals doctrine. The difference is that one will come pretty darn close to sending you to hell, and the portals doctrine will not. That is where we need to find some understanding. quote:
Is every minister in the world embracing the portals idea or not? So is God only speaking to JPJ and a few Elijah list imitators? I read one Elijah List ad that detailed a woman's ride through portals in a chariot with an angel. Whee, how special...not. If these people tried to get a job writing comic books I think they'd be turned down for their ideas being too ridiculous...and that's saying a lot!
Okay, so lets turn this proposition around. Is every preacher in the world baptist, or pentecostal? Is God only speaking to the Baptists or the Pentecostals? How special... I hope they enjoy it. Just like there are specialists in the army, there are people in the body of Christ who will recieve deep revelation in one area, and not as much in another. Just look at the Mystics of the Middle Ages. They have some of the deepest revelation on prayer to be found in all of Church History, but some of their other doctrine was just... weird. I can be an amazing demolitions expert and be a lousy marksman.quote:
Yes, he just admitted he's a false prophet and believes in 'growing' in the prophetic gift. There's nothing like speaking falsely in God's name to mislead and confuse both believers and unbelievers alike. Jackson has made God out to be a liar. John Paul has done no such thing. Read the quote you just posted... our failings. It isn't God failing, it is us. It is our maturation into "adult Christians" that he is talking about.quote:
Super Special Spirit Squad... Away!!! This is the stuff of comic books, and the 'Joel's army' garbage is apparently still making the rounds. What is up with this inane notion that God is going to pour His Spirit out on a particular generation who we are supposed to look to for God's 'extra special' revelation?? God either pours His Spirit out on all Christians, or He doesn't. He either indwells us now, or He doesn't.
We don't 'kind of sort of' have the Spirit now. We're not waiting for a 'super generation' to come along and show us the way. Christ *is* the way. Christ *is* the Prophet and has revealed His word IN FULL. Christ *has* poured His spirit out on every Christian.
Jackson just does not get it. So rather than debate, you would mock. If you read the book of Joel, it is increasingly clear that the promised blessing in eschatological in nature. Joel flat out says "in those days I will pour out my spirit on ALL FLESH. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams." So guess what... an end-times pouring out of the spirit is not only biblically justified, but flat out declared by the Prophet Joel. So who is doubting scripture? How do we know Acts 2 was not the completion of Joel's prophesy? Because not all were prophesying, speaking in new tounges, raising the dead and healing the sick. That means that this prophesy is still to be fulfilled.
At the end of the day, this all comes back to questioning if God still interacts with mankind today the way He did in the Bible. Considering that God doesn't change, that question is moot in my mind. If God healed the sick in the Bible, He heals the sick now. If God spoke through prophets and those with the spirit of God on them, He still does so today. I know I will get accused of not using my mind, or being on theologically shaky ground... but I don't have to explain away the entire Old Testament to make my theology work.
I said earlier that this is my last post, and I will stick to that. Not because I'm surrendering the point, but rather because I don't feel like having this fight right now. That's the advantage of the internet.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 8:42:50 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 1999
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
Certainly, in God's eyes, repentance brings about forgiveness. However, that does not mean that we here on earth automatically return to trusting people who have made false prophecies. I said nothing about automatically trusting people. I'm one of the most skeptical people I know as far as trusting people. The thing that scares me is that you are still viewing someone as being in error (even though you have not mentioned prophecies of his that have not come to pass) even though they have repented for that error. That means that they have repented and you are not willing to forgive them.
You said you are not going to post anymore, but I will comment back just the same for the sake of discussion.
I know they repented. My forgiving them is not the issue.
The issue is whether they can still be trusted to give proper prophecies after proving to have given false. Just because you say your sorry you made false prophecies and claimed they came from God doesn't mean you are suddenly a true prophet.
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-Ben-
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 9:41:25 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1250
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Edit to add: wintery, after posting this on the fly I finally had a moment to read through more of this thread and saw your replies. Kind of funny that we both saw this as a comic book moment.
It's good to see you posting again.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 9:55:36 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1250
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
but come on, these people come up with something new every week
I believe that's because God is speaking in dreams and visions to people, especially those who have a prophetic gifting, quite often. God communicates with all of us all the time in one form or another.
I see a difference between a pastor trying to hear from God what he should preach to the church, and a so-called prophet trying to glitz you with the latest thing they can get away with saying without getting laughed out of the League of Circuit Prophets.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 10:48:24 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1250
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Let us consider how offended we get by preachers telling us in their Television programs to send them money to cover the cost of their broadcast. What do we do? We mock them for begging for our money. When people set a price, we tear them apart for "selling the Gospel".
Fur, I'm sorry you missed this. It is exactly my point that it is _not_ about the Gospel, nothing to do with the Gospel, nothing to do with raising money to support the Gospel, nothing to do with every aspect of different flavors of preachers and whether they are on tv or not, _but rather_ this bunch of private, new revelation prophets who are peddling their own particular flavor and doctrine that they are merchandising to the flock. So please don't talk about people not being willing to give, it is another subject of its own. This is about ripping God's people off with an unscriptural private revelation and getting people to pay for it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Jacob saw a portal... which proves that "portals" (for lack of a better term) do in fact exist.
What Jacob saw in no way proves "portals". Speaking of angels ascending and descending, John 1:51 says
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
I would think that angels are quite capable of ascending and descending to God's will wherever God's people are (or anywhere else), as I pointed out earlier Genesis 28:15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go God says he will be with Jacob wherever he goes and not just at a particular location.
For yet another perspective John Wesley says on Genesis 28:12 (only a brief part of it) The mediation of Christ. He is this ladder: the foot on earth in his human nature, the top in heaven in his divine nature; or the former is his humiliation, the latter is his exaltation. All the intercourse between heaven and earth since the fall is by this ladder. Christ is the way: all God's favours come to us, and all our services come to him, by Christ.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
As for "slick marketing", the OP hadn't even heard about either of these people when they posted... so the "slick marketing" seems to have been stuck in neutral.
With no guile I hope that this is so, because I know people who are caught up in believing these marketings. It is a snare which makes a slippery path and keeps us from drawing near to Christ due to the distraction of looking for goofy revelations to come to pass or to wonder why we don't line up with them, or to think that those who disagree are thereby "persecuting" us and locking us into a marketer's martyr mentality which is a clouded and unfortunate state of mind.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
George Washington had a dream of three wars involving the country he was founding. One of them has not happened yet. Is he a false prophet, or has the time of the fulfillment not yet come? Your answer will tell you much about your faith in the Prophetic.
George Washington was a member of the scandalous Philadelphia Prophets of the 1780's..._not_!!
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ORIGINAL: wintery
No doubt there, but I look at the source and the amount of what is being said that comes from someone's new revelation and see if it's reasonable or likely imagination.
Part of what I consider my "style" is trying to be conversational with people sometimes, and I expected that to be the most attacked line I typed within the point I was making at the time. However, looking at
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
...rather than think it amiss, it may be the most valuable thing I said. It is actually a key point that people are parking a sound mind at the door and leaving behind reason to become completely unreasoning in accepting even ludicrous statements in a frenzy of lapping up false dreams and visions. Instead of ever getting to dividing the false from the true it's another few rounds about whether God might ever speak in any of these ways. I've said I won't limit God...He gives the gifts. The conversation should indeed be about what is "reasonable" in the context of what God would communicate and why, and of course who we should listen to.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I can't speak for SD456, but I can say for myself a definite yes.
I know this about you, and we've talked about Kim Clement, who, if it weren't so serious, would be more laughs than Cracky's joke book. So there are limits on hearing from God and giving prophecies. That's good to know.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Okay, so lets turn this proposition around. Is every preacher in the world baptist, or pentecostal? Is God only speaking to the Baptists or the Pentecostals? How special... I hope they enjoy it. Just like there are specialists in the army, there are people in the body of Christ who will recieve deep revelation in one area, and not as much in another.
There are sometimes breakaway rebel units who are no longer following the high command but are building up their own little group. They are who they are, whether they're on the cover of Charisma magazine calling themselves Kansas City Prophets or whether they've regrouped and repackaged themselves.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I said earlier that this is my last post, and I will stick to that. Not because I'm surrendering the point, but rather because I don't feel like having this fight right now. That's the advantage of the internet.
Adam
I won't hold you to that, Fur. I'll leave the porchlight on for you. :)
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 11:19:38 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1160
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
FurGodWurLivin: So guess what... an end-times pouring out of the spirit is not only biblically justified, but flat out declared by the Prophet Joel.
Acts explains well enough what happened and what was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words. 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but THIS IS what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour fourth of my Spirit upon all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions... 21 And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Prophecy fulfilled, making the 'future special event outpouring' theory completely null and void. Why did this happen on Pentecost??
Jn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.” 39 By this He meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
The time WAS THEN and IS NOW. Believers became indwelled with the Holy Spirit just as they are indwelled today. Acts makes no references to a future extra-special outpouring reserved only for a future extra-special generation.
quote:
wintery: It's good to see you posting again.
Thanks! I've definitely missed the forum. Just been really busy elsewhere, so my time is unfortunately limited.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 3/14/2008 1:23:53 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 12:11:31 PM
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sue244
Posts: 315
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
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I agree with wintery it is good to see you posting again LW9. Although I understand your time restraints Its nice to see your well researched replys on here when you do get the chance. Thanks for the info on these 2 people. Very enlightening.
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"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 3/14/2008 12:23:16 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1160
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Just to be clear, this isn't repentance:
quote:
John Paul Jackson: "I had to understand that God does not judge us for the number of times we fail in our attempts to advance the Kingdom, but for the number of times we succeed. We will find that the number of times we succeed is usually in proportion to the number of times we try. Whether it is praying for someone to be healed, to be delivered, or for giving a prophecy -- the more we try, the greater we will succeed and the more we will become attuned to the ebb and flow of God's Holy Spirit."
"Clearly, the revelatory arena seen in the Church today does not have the same weightiness as that of the Old Testament prophets. Perhaps there will never again be prophets who operate at a level that produces in written form the very words of God. However, in the coming days many greatly gifted people will arise within the Body of Christ.
Over the years, I have had my identity and self-worth tested by a title. As I responded wrongly to tests and failed to prophesy accurately, I discovered all too well the effects of a blow to the ego. Perhaps in letting us fail, God teaches us how to decrease, so that He might increase. Often it is His good pleasure to crush us, so that more of Him can be poured out through our lives.."
True repentance doesn't include justifying and whitewashing one's own sin of false prophecy by giving unBiblical explanations and allowances for false prophecy, continuing to promote false prophecy, or talking about blows to your ego while ignoring the incredible damage you've done to the body of Christ.
All he's done is cover up his past with more false teachings about how the errors of today's 'prophets' should be overlooked because they're not at the same 'level' and, well, they try really hard, so surely that counts for something... right?
The man is unbelieveable.
Aside: Hi sue!!! I've missed you guys so much!!
< Message edited by lw9 -- 3/14/2008 12:37:19 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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