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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 8:20:37 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
what i have issue with, i suppose is pure opinion and then broad sweeping conclusions like "he's going to hell". i have no issue with "right-wing" sources, so long as it's balanced with other sources as well. i can't base an opinion on someone elses opinion. certainly even you understand that?
Please list who here in this thread said Wright is going to hell, because I would take issue alongside with you on that.
And Wright's preaching/quotes is NOT based on pure opinion or broad sweeping conclusion - it is what it is. Why are you insisting that it is when his own church sells the DVD's and CD's of those sermons (well, maybe not anymore... heh).
Did you ever answer my question if you do agree that those kind of teachings are racist and absolutely contrary to biblical Christianity?
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 8:22:18 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Frankly I ascribe more to Bill Cosby theology for the social enlightenment of the black race than I do Cones.
Bob
Amen, his commentary on social issues is spot on.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 9:21:51 AM
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P31W
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Sammy,
For some reason it "hit me" last night about Obama using two white women to compare their comments to the
"teachings" of his pastor.
I also remembered Wright talking about Nataliee Holloway and Women in Sudan being raped.
What I realized is that "I" as a woman living in "this world" am oppressed.
I began to think about women all over the world and how they are oppressed by MEN!!!! MEN Of all races.
It was/is men who raped and murdered N. Holloway it is men in Sudan that rape and murder the women.
The I began to think about "feminist theology". Where MEN controlled the theology that we now know. MEN wrote the bible because "they" had the education. It's just liberation theology with a female twist.
ROFL
You know I can spend my time "hating" men or I can spend my time asking God to help me to truly forgive ANYONE who has done me wrong and help me to turn the other Cheek SO THAT I can share the "true message of Christ with them.
I can imagine myself going week after week to hear a sermon based on the idea that "men" are the problem in this world. I can see how it would over time "blind" you to the truth of Jesus Christ and our true mission as a child of Him.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 10:59:02 AM
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P31W
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Facedown,
I am not sure why you asked me what I think about Cone teaching at a seminary that is headed by a white guy?
All that I can figure out is that maybe you are thinking that Cone/Wright refuse to use whomever they so desire inorder to advance their agenda?
Remember now even if a "black" person does not dance to their political/social/economic tune and support what they preach/teach they are considered "out cast". Oprah once attended Wright's Church and was blasted by him from the pulpit when she left his congregation. From the pulpit he also called Condoleezza Rice “Condamnesia” and Justice Clarence Thomas “Clarence Colon”. These hate filled messages are greeted with "cheers" from the congregation.
Here are some of the "terms" often used in the Black Liberation Theology chruches to describe people like Rice and Powell and other blacks who don't dance to their tune....
“Uncle Toms,” “house ni***rs,” “sellouts,” and “traitors to their race.”
A "white person" can be saved but they need to repent "more" for their sins than a black person. (remember a white person is one who commits more humanity against humanity oppression". A black person does need to repent "some" but nothing like a white person. The white person who repents must also get intouch with blackness. To be a member of Wright's church you must support certain "black - here the term is being used for skin color not their changed defination) causes and to be a member of Wright's church one must also sit through new converts class and learn black history. You must also make a pledge or oath to support Africa. If you don't do these things as a white or black person you are not going to be treated with kit gloves.
Now back to the white college guy. I don't know that he does not support Wright in what he teaches. I don't know that Wright does not simply see a way to promote his cause. I don't have any personal feelings over this issue other than to say the seminary is wrong to help promote false doctrine.
Back to some of their theology.
They teach that Jesus was a black man and white men killed him.
(is the term black talking about race here or about their defination of black?) Sitting in the pew it would be extremely hard to tell "when" the new defination of black/white applies. They do teach that Jesus was a "literal black man" so it must follow that the term "white men" is literal as well.)
Of course in Christian Theology we know that no one killed Jesus. He layed down his life and gave up his spirit. No one can "force" God to do what he does not choose to do.
What most of us call simple Christian Theology is rejected by the BLT churches because it's considered "white man theology"
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/21/2008 11:10:49 AM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 11:05:42 AM
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bob97
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quote:
A "white person" can be saved but they need to repent "more" for their sins than a black person.
Wow...does this mean that we have to accept Christ two times or what? How many times can we be forgiven?
It would also imply that I'm responsible for the other white guys sins...bummer!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 11:08:28 AM
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P31W
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Salvation is about overcoming oppression and injustice
Sin is about "man's inhumanity to man" because God lives in all men. Therefore whites more than blacks need to come to repentance and whites are told they are to embrace "blackness".
Black theology's center is the theme of oppression. To 'be black" is to be oppressed. To "be white" is to be an oppressor.
Historical identity is also a key in thier belief system.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/21/2008 11:18:05 AM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 11:20:27 AM
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P31W
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Foundationally, the liberation hermeneutic (which makes praxis the first step, and theology the second) is completely without any controlling exegetical criteria. Vernon C. Grounds is right when he says that "there is no exegetical magic by which new meanings can without limit be conjured out of the Bible under the illuminating creativity of new situations."[45]
In liberation theology, the basic authority in interpretation ceases to be Scripture; it is rather the mind of the interpreter as he "reads" the current historical situation. It is one of the canons of literary (not just scriptural) hermeneutics, however, that what a passage means is fixed by the author and is not subject to alteration by readers. "Meaning is determined by the author; it is discovered by readers."[46]
Only after the meaning has been discovered by the reader can it be applied to the current situation. Certainly we all agree that Christians must practice their faith in daily life. But from a Scriptural perspective, the way a Christian conducts his or her life is based on the objective, propositional revelation found in Scripture. Christians must know God's will as revealed in Scripture before they can act on it. Without a preeminence of Scripture over praxis, the Christian cannot know what to believe or what to do. Evangelicals therefore reject any suggestion that "we must do in order to know, and hope that orthodoxy will arise from orthopraxis [right action]."
An examination of Jesus' use of the Old Testament shows that He interpreted it as objective, propositional revelation (see Matt. 22:23-33). His hermeneutic knew nothing of making praxis the first step for discovering theological truth.
Truth that Transcends Culture and Time
Evangelicals have criticized the inability of liberation theology's hermeneutic to develop a culture-transcending theology with normative authority. Liberation theologians have shown little or no recognition of the fact that there are teachings and commands in Scripture that - owing to their divine inspiration (2 Tim. 3:16) - transcend all cultural barriers and are binding on all people everywhere. Key teachings of Scripture - such as man's sin, his alienation from God, his need for a personal Redeemer - speak universally to the human condition and can never be bound to particular cultures or situations.[47]
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Liberation.html
The above copy and paste is from Ron Rhodes he is discussing "liberation theology" from which "black" liberation theology finds some starting points. I think the above passage helps us to better understand how this theology starts off on the wrong foot and can't help but lead to false doctrine. It's a good paper and is three parts.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/21/2008 11:29:15 AM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 3:52:19 PM
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Sammy_S
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P31W
quote:
Sammy,
For some reason it "hit me" last night about Obama using two white women to compare their comments to the
"teachings" of his pastor.
I also remembered Wright talking about Nataliee Holloway and Women in Sudan being raped.
What I realized is that "I" as a woman living in "this world" am oppressed.
I began to think about women all over the world and how they are oppressed by MEN!!!! MEN Of all races.
It was/is men who raped and murdered N. Holloway it is men in Sudan that rape and murder the women.
The I began to think about "feminist theology". Where MEN controlled the theology that we now know. MEN wrote the bible because "they" had the education. It's just liberation theology with a female twist.
ROFL
You know I can spend my time "hating" men or I can spend my time asking God to help me to truly forgive ANYONE who has done me wrong and help me to turn the other Cheek SO THAT I can share the "true message of Christ with them.
I can imagine myself going week after week to hear a sermon based on the idea that "men" are the problem in this world. I can see how it would over time "blind" you to the truth of Jesus Christ and our true mission as a child of Him.
Interesting,I have always seen the Feminist movement as a movement that hurts the ideal woman of God.They believe that they are empowering women but are wickedly hurting the virtous woman of God.It's the same way i see this pathetic theology(I'm being nice).They in their wickedness believe that they are somehow helping black people but instead they are doing the opposite.
These guys are on the same level as the KKK,that may sound harsh but they all stand for same thing and that is to cause foolish division.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/21/2008 4:43:38 PM
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BookerG
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Basically when it comes to sin there are three types of people: the perpetrator, the victim, and the bystander.
The Scriptures chiefly address the perpetrator, seeking repentance.
They also address the victim, offering comfort and urging patience and perseverance, turn the other cheek and forgive.
Occasionally they address the bystander, encouraging him to help the victim (Good Samaritan) or stand up against the perpetrator (defend the widow and the powerless).
Liberation theology addresses only the victim. It lumps perpetrator and bystander as equally guilty and unredeemable.
It's only goal is to change society and end injustice, not repentance, not forgiveness or the afterlife. And since the perpetrator and the bystander aren't listening, it seeks to get the victim to rise up and fight back.
It seeks action, and the way to stir up action quickest is to stir up anger (mixed with self-righteous pride that we victims are the good guys).
Forgiveness or turning the other cheek are counterproductive to action.
Truth and lies are equally useful tools that can achieve the goal of action. And tools is all they are. Truth can be pushed to the side as long as you have Right on your side.
Liberation theology isn't always black vs white. I think it started in Central and South America where it was just whoever is poor versus whoever is in power. If we have never heard white preachers preaching hatred, it's because we don't have enough whites feeling oppressed enough to make it effective.
I can't honestly tell if Rev. Wright is a racist, or if he just uses the words that will most powerfully drive people to action. I don't know if all the people who sit in the pews believe the hateful speech and shout "Amen" because they are hateful, or if they just think of it as "powerful" speech and cheer all the action it will inspire.
I imagine an activist and community organizer like Barak Obama could join a liberation church because he's impressed with its call to action. Even if he decries all forms of racism, and would be appalled at such speech in any other venue, here, where truth is secondary to an inspiring call to action, it's possible to not even notice either the hatred or the fact that what the reverend says is a lie. Does it work? Will people refuse to tolerate injustice? Will they do something? That's all that matters.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/23/2008 10:12:58 PM
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colliefan
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Any theology that bases its liberation apart from Christ's death and ressurection is fataly flawed because fallen man is savior instead of the King of Kings.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/23/2008 11:41:06 PM
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bob97
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Yes BookerG...I'm sure these words of encouragement would help a Church to grow in love for both God and all man kind.
quote:
"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us, if God is not against white racists, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill gods that do not belong to the black community." [A Black Theology of Liberation, p. 27]
"Black theology cannot accept a view of God which does not represent God as being for oppressed blacks and thus against white oppressors. Living in a world of white oppressors, blacks have no time for a neutral God. The brutalities are too great and the pain too severe, and this means we must know where God is and what God is doing in the revolution. There is no use for a God who loves white oppressors the same as oppressed blacks. We have had too much of white love, the love that tells blacks to turn the other cheek and go the second mile. What we need is the divine love as expressed in black power, which is the power of blacks to destroy their oppressors, here and now, by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject God's love." [A Black Theology of Liberation, p. 70]
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/24/2008 8:33:27 AM
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P31W
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If anyone didn't readi Bob's quote above read it.
Let those teachings sink in. Comprare it to scripture.
That is what James Cones teaches in a nutshell. Cones says that Trinity United Chruch of God is the church that he says best exemplifies his theology in their teaching.
It's false. As sammy said above it's just like the KKK. It's a group of people who have hate in their heart going to scripture and twisting it inorder to justify doing whatever it is they please.
The way BLT began was with folks who said they were angry with whites who owned slaved and twisted scripture inorder to justify slavery. What that group does not realize is they are guilty of the "same sin" as the slave owners. They have gone to scripture inorder to "twist it" inorder to justify "their sin"
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/24/2008 8:40:37 AM
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earthless
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Are people still trying to defend racist "theology"?
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/24/2008 1:03:16 PM
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BookerG
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If you're referring to me, maybe I should have put quotation marks around some of my statements to make it clear I was trying to explain their way of seeing things. It's not what I believe, and I wasn't defending it, just trying to better understand how some people who are not racists could belong to a BLT church.
To me, the preaching of sin must always make me more concerned about how I have wronged others than how others have wronged me, no matter how badly I have been treated.
To me, the church must always be about forgiveness and salvation first, the growth of the Christian in the pew second, and only in a distant, distant third any concern with changing society.
To me, the ends never justify the means, and anger and hatred are never a justifiable means, even if they achieve the BLT goal of changing society.
To me "speaking the truth in love" is vital. Neither truth nor love can ever be "pushed to the side" as just a tool. And if the way I explained their point of view made it sound like these methods are in any way defensible, I apologize.
Obviously, there are many pure racists in BLT, and its theology attracts racists like flies. But I would not make a blanket accusation of racism of every person who attends a BLT church.
I know absolutely nothing about Cone. He sounds like a racist. I know absolutely nothing about Trinity except the snippets that have been played over and over on the news.
But I don't think the heart of BLT starts with racism. It starts with a false view of the purpose of the church and with a preposterous view of Truth.
I trace it back to modern, liberal criticism that says the Bible is full of "powerful myths." Creation, the virgin birth, the resurrection. Liberal theologians don't believe any of them are literally or historically true, but they preach them as if they were true because of the power that these "myths" have to affect their church members in a positive way. If someone spends enough time in that atmosphere, it becomes legitimate to say anything, no matter how patently false, as long as the power of the myth makes it a useful tool. So ridiculous claims like "The US invented AIDS as a form of genocide" that don't even make sense, work as a powerful myth. The pastors live on this stuff, and church members can absorb the same philosophy. After while, they don't even evaluate whether what their pastor is saying is true, they just shout "Amen" because it's powerful. (Coincidentally, that also seems to be the appeal of Obama as a candidate, not what he says but the fact that he says it so powerfully).
That's how I think someone who is not a racist could be a member of such a church, and why I won't automatically condemn Obama as racist just because he belonged to such a church. I will decry his weak and misguided faith that places activism and community organization above the tenets of Christianity. But I don't have enough evidence to say whether or not he is racist.
However, now that Wright's replacement used his Easter Sunday sermon, not to preach about the resurrection of Christ, but to defend what Wright said and compare his "lynching" with the crucifixion of Jesus, I am much closer to pronouncing the whole church as outside Christianity. And Obama no longer has the excuse of a close personal relationship with "uncle" Jeremiah, to explain his refusal to reject and leave that church.
< Message edited by BookerG -- 3/24/2008 1:13:39 PM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/24/2008 1:38:45 PM
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P31W
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quote:
I know absolutely nothing about Cone.
He is considered the father of contempory BLT.
If you want to know the doctrine taugh at Trinity all you need to do is study Cones. Cones admits that part of what influenced his theoloy was the black muslim movement and black power. Cone's critics within the "BLT community" consider his teachings to be akin to racism and moving away from Christanity and toward nothing more than "black power".
Earlier I said that Trinity was the church that Cone said best exemplified his theology. I also said that Cones did not advocate violence.
I think I need to say something about violence. Although he does not advocate it he also does not completely denounce it either. Rather he leaves it open as an "option".
When the Blacks decide that white America and her white Chruch are without hope of "salvation" (remember their new defination for salvation as posted below) then violence is an option they may need to consider.
__________
Salvation is about overcoming oppression and injustice
Sin is about "man's inhumanity to man" because God lives in all men. Therefore whites more than blacks need to come to repentance and whites are told they are to embrace "blackness".
Jesus is not so much the Son of God who made the way for us to be made right with God by faith in him rather Jesus is the one who "shows us the way" to God.
quote:
However, now that Wright's replacement used his Easter Sunday sermon, not to preach about the resurrection of Christ, but to defend what Wright said and compare his "lynching" with the crucifixion of Jesus, I am much closer to pronouncing the whole church as outside Christianity. And Obama no longer has the excuse of a close personal relationship with "uncle" Jeremiah, to explain his refusal to reject and leave that church.
That is how I view Obama. He is without excuse not for having a friend who is a preacher in this stuff but for setting under this stuff for 20 years and having his children indoctrinated into it.
It also helped me to understand why his wife said she had never been proud of this country until now. She is completely indoctrinated into this hate stuff.
quote:
I wasn't defending it, just trying to better understand how some people who are not racists could belong to a BLT church.
I completely understand how this stuff began and along with you can understand how some BLT churches may not be completely off their rocker. I do believe their are moderate BLT churches who still have Christ front and center and have no changed the meanings of all christian term to have them deal with the here and now. But I also know that when a Chruch holds up Cones theology they are probably going off the deep end and falling off of it quickly.
It began because white slave owners twisted scripture inorder to justify doing as they pleased. It was also because the Chruch as a whole (especially the white chruches) did not stand up and denounce slavery. Also many were so "set apart" from the world that they stood by in silence pretending that suffering and injustice was not occuring....again a sin on their part.
I have discovered that oftentimes when a sin is left "unchecked" in the Chruch a cult will form in reaction to that or those sins.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/24/2008 1:57:18 PM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/24/2008 1:55:21 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Thanks BookerG...its good to hear you position. Hate has no position in the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is natural for the world to be jealous and hate and incumbent upon those of Christ to love. I would suggest it is far easer to hate then to love because hate comes natural to the fallen world. A Church of hate, white or black (and there are both) is not a Church of Jesus Christ.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 3/29/2008 9:56:46 AM
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Mannamuncher
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Can't enjoy a BLT at the deli now...
Hatred is hatred...
Sounds like a hate group masking as followers of Jesus !
Jesus said to "love your brother as yourself".......
Hate is learned, and we all hate as evil sinners.
Who taught the black community to practice hate ?
Wouldn't hatred originate within themselves ?
manna
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 3:21:05 PM
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wing2000
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quote:
The fact is that most people who attend these kinds of churches are in fact looking for a religious view that fits a doctrine that they already process. If one possesses a certain theology they look for others that support their viewpoint.
And of course that is true of ALL churches....not just "these kinds of churchs".
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 3:52:59 PM
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wing2000
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In reading through this thread, it strikes me that nobody has addressed the historical context of liberation theology -- and yes, every theology does have a historical and political context. Nor has any one addressed the sin of many Christians who oppressed their fellow human beings for centuries....whether it was in the American slave markets or those who looked the other way while our government supported repressive governments in Latin America.
Having said that, I am not hear to defend every word that James Cone has ever written or Liberation Theology in general. There are several theological points that I would take issue with (some of those statements have been quoted here) . At the same time I think one needs to study the historical and political context in order to fully understand why such a theology evolved.
< Message edited by wing2000 -- 4/27/2008 4:16:35 PM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 4:09:31 PM
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wing2000
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In 1980, Ronald J. Sider published a brief examination and critique of Liberation Theology and prefaced his remarks with the following:
"The emergence of theologies of liberation -- whether black, feminist or Latin American -- is probably the most significant theological development of recent years. At the heart of liberation theology is the attempt fundamentally to rethink theology from the standpoint of the poor and oppressed. The central theological foundation of this approach is the thesis that God is on their side. It is that basic thesis that I want to probe. Space here is too limited to develop a comprehensive evangelical theology of liberation, so instead I want to answer two questions. How biblical is the view that God is on the side of the poor and the oppressed? Second, in light of the answer to this first question, how biblical is evangelical theology?
Read more here:
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1757
< Message edited by wing2000 -- 4/27/2008 4:19:52 PM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 7:47:12 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2473
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
How biblical is the view that God is on the side of the poor and the oppressed? Second, in light of the answer to this first question, how biblical is evangelical theology?
God is on the side of those who fear and worship him. Econmic and political status has nothing to do with God's favor. Evangelical theology is based on the Bible.
ET assumes that man is inherantly sinfull. LT assumes man is inherantly good.
ET assumes that b/c of this sin Jesus came to pay that debt. LT assumes that the church/governmenrs role is to liberate them from poverty. Sin is not from man but evil entities such as private enterpise.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 8:16:04 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 935
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quote:
God is on the side of those who fear and worship him. Econmic and political status has nothing to do with God's favor. Evangelical theology is based on the Bible.
Yes. And fearing him also means treating people justly -- in both an economic and political sense. The prophets of the Old Testament has strong words for God's people when they failed to do so.
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) but this man was a true believer.I was impressed with his Gospel first attitude!I am very convinced that if he was alive today he would be as embarrased as I am about how many black people have destroyed his message. 
