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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 9:34:22 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000:
Yes. And fearing him also means treating people justly -- in both an economic and political sense. The prophets of the Old Testament has strong words for God's people when they failed to do so.
Wing,
First, let me point you to some Scriptures to see what God thinks about this matter. "Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him..."Isaiah 58:6-7; "He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." St. Luke 4:18-19 "If a brothers or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." James 2:15-17
Now as you can see, Scripture is not silent on this matter. It is a callous heart that can ignore the sufferings of others. We are called to do good works in the name of the Lord, just as the sheep in St. Matthew's gospel who clothed the naked, fed the hungry, visited the sick and those in prison.
With that said, we also know that there is a spiritual oppression, a spiritual poverty, a spiritual disease, a spiritual hunger, that Christ wants sinful mankind to be set free from. One thing to note here is that if Jesus' main mission was alligned with the Black Liberation Theology movement, He would have encouraged His disciples to take up arms and overthrow the oppressive Roman regime. But He didn't. Why do you suppose that is?
If we look at Christ's example while here on earth, He healed sick people, fed hungry people, and raised the dead. But His ministry never ended there. He did all of these things to draw people to Himself that they would love God and serve Him. His desire was that they would be so filled with the life of God, that they would do the works He did and even greater works.
Black Liberation Theology does not encourage Christians to love everyone regardless of the color of their skin, their economic status, or their status in life. Rather, it seeks to re-build the dividing wall of hostility which Christ came to tear down. BLT seeks to instigate those who feel under priveleged, and insight anger within them because of the injustices in society. BLT is not a religion which reflects the love of Christ but rather, it is a religion of retaliation and revenge.
The Spirit behind this movement is not the spirit of Christ, but rather the spirit of this world.
Heavendweller
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 9:36:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
How biblical is the view that God is on the side of the poor and the oppressed? Second, in light of the answer to this first question, how biblical is evangelical theology?
God is on the side of those who fear and worship him. Econmic and political status has nothing to do with God's favor. Evangelical theology is based on the Bible.
God is opposed to oppression. But that does not necessarily mean that the oppressed are righteous. For example, God used the Babylonians to punish the ancient Israelites. God intended for the ancient Israelites to be oppressed. Then, in turn, God punished the Babylonians for going too far.
It is quite possible (and even likely) that the American Civil War was a judgment on America for the institution of slavery.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 10:25:40 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1053
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quote:
With that said, we also know that there is a spiritual oppression, a spiritual poverty, a spiritual disease, a spiritual hunger, that Christ wants sinful mankind to be set free from. One thing to note here is that if Jesus' main mission was alligned with the Black Liberation Theology movement, He would have encouraged His disciples to take up arms and overthrow the oppressive Roman regime. But He didn't. Why do you suppose that is?
I agree and I believe we should be concerned with both physical and spiritual oppression...as Christ taught. My point was not whether violence by the oppresses is justified...rather, I am speaking to those who held power...specifically the Christians who held power and did nothing. Christ is very clear on what He thinks of such inaction:
quote:
If we look at Christ's example while here on earth, He healed sick people, fed hungry people, and raised the dead. But His ministry never ended there. He did all of these things to draw people to Himself that they would love God and serve Him. His desire was that they would be so filled with the life of God, that they would do the works He did and even greater works.
Black Liberation Theology does not encourage Christians to love everyone regardless of the color of their skin, their economic status, or their status in life. Rather, it seeks to re-build the dividing wall of hostility which Christ came to tear down. BLT seeks to instigate those who feel under priveleged, and insight anger within them because of the injustices in society. BLT is not a religion which reflects the love of Christ but rather, it is a religion of retaliation and revenge.
Certainly there is a danger for people to blame past injustice and use it as a scape goat. However, my point is that BLT would not have evolved IF Christians were following the teaching of Christ.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/27/2008 11:50:07 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
If this in fact goes on in all liberal black churches is there any wonder that there is mistrust and division between races?
No, does hate mongering go on in all White Churches because there is some that do it. of course not.
Please, please don't say all black Churches, by the way, I thought the word liberal and cconservative were not in the Bible, I found I was wrong, liberal is in there 4 times. this being one.
2Co 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men
Blacks are not all the same group. That's like saying Italians are the Irish. Just plain ignorance.
quote:
It is quite possible (and even likely) that the American Civil War was a judgment on America for the institution of slavery.
I believe He sent Europeans to enslave Africans, for punishment also.
Black Liberation theology is a false gospel. There's no doubt about that.
quote:
Frankly I ascribe more to Bill Cosby theology for the social enlightenment of the black race than I do Cones.
No not Bill Cosby, he is a lover of prostitutes and cheats on his wife. He turned MLK down when he could've marched in the actual Civil Rights movement. Instead Playboy Mansion has him on footage there way back to the 60's. go to amazon, you can buy the DVD.
Bill Cosby himself says he is a frightened atheist. Read his first book
MLK did what Jesus said to do, love your enemy, turn the other cheek, guess what it worked!
quote:
Like P31W, I have never, ever heard such hate preached by a white man, ever. I don't deny that racism and oppression exist, but whites are not the exclusive perpetrators. My African husband has been treated worst by American blacks. Figure that one out
then I would suggest you are not looking very hard. They are all over the web.
Your husband forebears probaly helped to sell some American blacks forebears. Europeans did not go into the interior of Africa very much during slavery.
Hate being preached is wrong, but let's not pretend we are all ok. Racism is alive and well. Racial Hate Crimes have risen 10% since 2000 according to FBI.com
As to some of the other postings, land ownership would be great for voting, if 15 MILLION acres had'nt been stolen from Blacks in this country SINCE 1900, that is well documented.
That was stuff the south did use land owner ship before we got the right to vote.
Now since a black man might win, lets change the rules? That's been tried to, too many times.
What does a Confederate Soldier have to do with it. 273 of my dad's family members fought for the Confederacy. 1 fought against it on my mother's side.
Bo is not an African american like I am. His father is from Africa and his european american mother is from here.
Some Africans Americans feel that 43 white men have screwed us, why not let a black one do it.
If we are following Christ, WE ALL would plead the cause of the poor black people in this country.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 4/28/2008 2:03:36 AM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/28/2008 10:37:41 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5238
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
If we are following Christ, WE ALL would plead the cause of the poor black people in this country.
But this is where problems start arise, why not just plead and pray for all poor folks in the Nation, why leave out non-blacks.
There are more poverty stricken white folks in the US than poverty stricken black folks.
Why not work on and pray for a way that all poverty striken folks can learn job skills, get jobs, get off welfare, and gain some self-respect?
And then those that will not word; do not eat just like the Bible says;
(2Th 3:10) For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/29/2008 8:50:51 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/28/2008 10:47:00 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
But this is where problems start arise, why not just plead and pray for all poor folks in the Nation, why leave out non-blacks.
There are more poverty stricken white folks in the US than poverty stricken black folks.
Why not work on and pray for a way that all poverty striken folks can learn job skills, get jobs, get off welfare, and gain some self-respect?
And then those that will not word; do not east just like the Bible says;
(2Th 3:10) For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Plead for the poor, that's the verse, the thread is Black Liberation Theology.
Why not do what the Bible says, why do you guys only use one verse, when Paul is speaking to the men of the Church to justify not helping the poor. It's very easy to do. the Bible says help the poor. 100's of times. What is so hard about it.
Exo 23:6 Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of thy poor in his cause.
Exo 23:11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
how many should I list before you get it?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/28/2008 10:57:59 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5238
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
how many should I list before you get it?
OK, but you repeatedly say this;
quote:
If we are following Christ, WE ALL would plead the cause of the poor black people in this country.
That is divisive, and possible racist against non-whites.
We should pray for all those in poverty without having to made it a black/white thing.
Is a Church truely Christian if who thay pray for is elevation of just "Blacks"? Or are they a racist Church?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/28/2008 12:44:39 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
OK, but you repeatedly say this;
quote:
If we are following Christ, WE ALL would plead the cause of the poor black people in this country.
That is divisive, and possible racist against non-whites.
We should pray for all those in poverty without having to made it a black/white thing.
Is a Church truely Christian if who thay pray for is elevation of just "Blacks"? Or are they a racist Church?
No I dont' repeatedly say, I say it in this thread.
I agree, pray for the poor, I don't care what color they are.
No and No, I have said that repeatedly. Rev. Wright is preaching a false Gospel, so is Oprah, do I care they are black, no, it's false.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/28/2008 1:54:02 PM
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RHardin15
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The BLT is a false gospel. There are many other false gospels within the "Christian Church" too.
-Any doctrine that teaches that there are rules to get in to heaven other than by Jesus' blood is a lie.
-Any doctrine that says one man is any more evil/good than another man is a lie.
-Any doctrine that says there are rules that must be followed (ie, being baptized or confirmed or whatever) before getting into heaven is a lie.
-Any doctrine that was added by man (just because man wanted to, or because man distorted scripture) is a lie!
There is a HUGE problem with this throughout the Church. Man has completely warped God's idea of what the Body of Christ is supposed to be. It's time that Churches don't teach doctrine that is not scripture. There are certain things that can be interpreted different ways, and each person is going to believe differently. However, we need to embrace those differences and love one-another anyway, not try to prove that OUR way is right. The way that is right is that Jesus Christ is the perfect Son of God and the only one that can redeem anyone. The Church body needs to stop with all of the added in stuff that causes division. The Church does not need an "official stance" on many of the issues that most Church denominations have, there are a few core principles that cannot be disputed within the Christian Church (I believe some of the liberation theologies do dispute a few of those, making them cults), but MAN has caused problems beyond that.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/28/2008 9:08:21 PM
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CropDuster
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Liberation Theology has its place in Christian theology and history, and has made invaluable contributions therein. Nonetheless, it has its limits. After all, it's not the 'final word' on Christianity. In the end, it's up the individual to earn his own salvation before the authority of God the old-fashioned way -- through faith and moral living.
< Message edited by CropDuster -- 4/29/2008 6:35:24 AM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/28/2008 10:04:37 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2585
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quote:
Yes. And fearing him also means treating people justly -- in both an economic and political sense. The prophets of the Old Testament has strong words for God's people when they failed to do so.
It does say to treat people justly and to care for the widows and orphans in their distress. But it also says to keep the mariage bed pure, that those who steal must steal no more but to work to give to those in need. it says those who will not work will not eat.
ET assumes the ones to do the work is the church and not the government. LT assume the one to do the work is its church - the Nanny State. Despite those such as Tony Compolo and his cohorts at Eastern Seminary may say.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 4/28/2008 10:14:06 PM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/29/2008 6:37:17 AM
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CropDuster
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Liberation Theology has done a lot of important work in Latin America, which is the context in which I'm accustomed to it. I can definitely understand its importance to other groups that have experienced oppression and exploitation. Nevertheless, it's not the singular means to one's salvation. It's an expression of Christian concern in the realm of social justice. It's a component of Christian devotion, not the sum total of all we will be held accountable for, on Judgment Day.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/29/2008 8:51:13 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5238
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Why not do what the Bible says, why do you guys only use one verse, when Paul is speaking to the men of the Church to justify not helping the poor. It's very easy to do. the Bible says help the poor. 100's of times. What is so hard about it.
No one is saying not to help the poor, but Scripture instructs what it instructs and we should obey.
It is obviously referring to the rift raft that will not work (even when they are able and jobs available) and stand in live for hand outs.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/29/2008 10:19:26 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
No one is saying not to help the poor, but Scripture instructs what it instructs and we should obey.
It is obviously referring to the rift raft that will not work (even when they are able and jobs available) and stand in live for hand outs.
Agreed. Able bodied people should work! And there are jobs out here, maybe not what you want,but there. I always hated to ask for anything, the lines are too long! It was easier to get a job.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 4/29/2008 10:29:36 AM
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bob97
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Welfare assistances will never solve the poverty issue; in fact it only makes the problem worse. People who do not want to work will find ways to extort the welfare assistance and become even more addicted to free giveaways.
Programs tied to education and encouragement to seek employment work much better and I would see nothing wrong with food or finical assistance as long as one is achieving certain benchmarks toward preparing for employment.
Perhaps the most successful program used was the Works Progress Administration enacted during the Great Depression which was one of the most successful employed.
Generations of people not inclined to provide for themselves is a rather large elephant to eat indeed.
Don’t get me wrong…I’m not talking about any one race here, I’m talking about anyone able but not inclined to provide for themselves.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 12:45:57 PM
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ukfan
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Until the Rev. Wright story hit the news I had never heard of BLT so forgive me for my ignorance. From the few things I recently read online, it just seems to be a socially active protestant theology. One of the things I keep hearing is that BLT is racist but alot of the quotes I've read that people are upset over really don't seem that racist to me.
BTW, I went to see the Rosa Parks museum in Montgomery on Tuesday. It was pretty enlightening. Made me wonder if white Christians were more responsive to the black population if BLT would have evolved.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 1:02:04 PM
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bob97
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How would you like us to be responsive? What would you like for us to do?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 1:32:02 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Don’t get me wrong…I’m not talking about any one race here, I’m talking about anyone able but not inclined to provide for themselves.
no one is getting you wrong. there are more white people on welfare than blacks. look at the stats. Blacks don't outpace whites in anything in sheer numbers in US, there are not enough.
quote:
One of the things I keep hearing is that BLT is racist but alot of the quotes I've read that people are upset over really don't seem that racist to me.
Wright bases his theology on a loose warped form of BLT, mixes it with NOI theology.
Wright also on his Church website , says he bases his theology on a book by James Cones, THAT is REAL RACIST.
quote:
BTW, I went to see the Rosa Parks museum in Montgomery on Tuesday. It was pretty enlightening. Made me wonder if white Christians were more responsive to the black population if BLT would have evolved.
If white Christians had NOT enslaved Blacks, it would not have evolved.
But I believe only G-d can liberate us from this world.
quote:
.How would you like us to be responsive? What would you like for us to do?
Talk to your brothers and sisters in Christ, don't worry about their color!
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 1:32:30 PM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
How would you like us to be responsive? What would you like for us to do?
Bob
I wasn't really talking about right now but the not so distant past. Like would there be BLT if it didn't take 100 years after the end of slavery for blacks to get some semblance of equality within the law.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 1:58:38 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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quote:
Talk to your brothers and sisters in Christ, don't worry about their color!
I do and I don't!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 3:29:50 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
I wasn't really talking about right now but the not so distant past. Like would there be BLT if it didn't take 100 years after the end of slavery for blacks to get some semblance of equality within the law.
Black Liberation Theology is only about 40 years old. It has more in common with its philosophical predecessor, Catholic Liberation Theology than it does with the American institution of slavery. Roman Catholic Liberation Theological apparently has some Socialistic Communistic roots. To suggest that BLT grew directly out from the American institution of slavery ignores history.
It would appear that it is an effort of Socialistic Communism has taken advantage of the racial divides in American society for its own cause.
I really think its issues are racial and economic rather than Christian. Note, for example, that Jeremiah Wright will not denounce Louis Farrakhan (not even a Christian but a Black Muslim), but readily denounces American Evangelical whites.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 5:47:00 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
I wasn't really talking about right now but the not so distant past. Like would there be BLT if it didn't take 100 years after the end of slavery for blacks to get some semblance of equality within the law.
no, I don't think so.
quote:
I really think its issues are racial and economic rather than Christian. Note, for example, that Jeremiah Wright will not denounce Louis Farrakhan (not even a Christian but a Black Muslim), but readily denounces American Evangelical whites.
I agree.
It's a mixing of Christianity , liberation theology, racism and economics, Moslems
a false gospel.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 6:57:33 PM
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bob97
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How many in these congregations leave church on Sunday...mad at the world and filled with hate for those they blame for having perpetrated these crimes against them? What do they teach their children?
My biggest question is...how extensive it this problem?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 8:33:06 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
How many in these congregations leave church on Sunday...mad at the world and filled with hate for those they blame for having perpetrated these crimes against them? What do they teach their children?
My biggest question is...how extensive it this problem?
I can't speak for them I don't attend a Church that does that. I don't think it is very extensive.
do I see a lot of preachers preaching hate, yes.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 9:48:32 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
How many in these congregations leave church on Sunday...mad at the world and filled with hate for those they blame for having perpetrated these crimes against them? What do they teach their children?
My biggest question is...how extensive it this problem?
I can't speak for them I don't attend a Church that does that. I don't think it is very extensive.
do I see a lot of preachers preaching hate, yes.
Tracy,
I have a question. Maybe you can't answer it yourself. But maybe you have a different perspective than I do.
Do you think that many African American churches believe that the bigotry that existed in some southern white churches of, say 50 years ago (pre-Civil Rights Era), still exists to the same extent today? Going on the basis of what Jeremiah Wright said the other day at the National Press Conference, I think he still believes that it not only exists but is also alive and well---sown, watered, cultivated, and propagated secretly out of the eyes of the African American churches--like the Klan.
BTW, I can only say that once, many (30) years ago did anything close exist in any church I attended. Frankly, I didn't understand it. It was not open that I can remember. Not to the same extent that we are discussing here, but something was there. The church itself had some borderline cultic tendencies in other areas, completely unrelated to race. I repudiate it. My memory of it is sketchy and vague. But it must have been there.
There has been no church that I attended since that time had anything other than a welcoming attitude toward African Americans.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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