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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/21/2008 11:25:53 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2605
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Ok where in the Bible does it say they were Europeans, Semites, and Africans?
Paul was from Tarsus which is in modern-day Spain. BLT, as in its vanilla cousin LT, down plays Christ's victory over sin. Instead of the enemy being sin, both versions place the enemy as poverty. Victory is achieved when radical egalitarianism is obtained.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 2:34:22 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
That claim is entirely without merit. If Jews of the OT were black, then Ethiopians would have had no distinctive skin color different from Israelites.
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." (Jer 13:23, KJV
My beliefs! Your beliefs are based on what? I studied it, researched words, got out the Bible, looked at Rivers, whats eastward if we started in Tanzania. Up and out to Israel, got out maps, antique maps, looked up words in Hebrew and Greek,
read volumes of ancients writings, what do you got to prove that anyone is white in the Bible?
2Ki 5:27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.
mentioned 66 times in Bible, the word white.
Look it up
Son 1:5 I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.
Son 1:6 Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
Jews from South Africa Lembas are Black.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html
"The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood.
Why would a Jew have to look Ethiopian? The Ethiopian Jews are you referring to? 1984 Operation Moses?
They can't look South african?
you do know Moses married a woman from where? Ethiopia, that why Miriam was cursed with this leperosy also.
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Please don't suggest that I do research to prove some convoluted point you may be making. If you have solid data and a point, please present it, with the evidence thereof.
LOL. Won't find many sites to help YOUR CASE. Put in European written language...
quote:
More likely, He had olive skin and black hair, like Middle Easterners today
Maybe , what Middle Easterners? they are pretty brown.
Remember 2000 years ago, the "Nordic" Aryan, European, Gaul, whatever was not in Egypt, so where did the lightening come from?
Here's a pic of a Nubian or what some call the last of the real Egyptian. Today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/belatrix/2175649079/
quote:
Jesus was of Semitic origin, like all Jews. Descendants of Ham (of the three sons of Noah, if you believe the Bible) were probably black.
I believe Ham is in the Bible as Noah's son. I also don't believe in the Hamitic curse!
Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Canaan was cursed. Ham had other sons also. I always wondered why people said the "Ham Curse" when it was Canaan. And what happened to the Canaanites?
Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
Gen 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
It says Nations, divided by nations. Not European or African.
I believe they were ALL Black or brown.
quote:
The original Romans were probably closer to Caucasians than any other ethnic group.
so you have never read Herodutus? Father of History.?
Juluis Caesar, Tacitus, Strabo ?
Greeks and Romans.
Julius Caesar wrote about who were the Europeans to him.. about 55 B. C. A quote"
"They believe that the executions of those who have been caught in the act of theft or robbery or some crime is more pleasing to the immortal gods but when supply of such fails they resort to the execution even of the innocent."
Greeks and Romans did not consider themselves from what is Europe proper, that's what I am going on. Their words.
They had words for Gauls, Celts, Barbarians, and ain't none of them pretty.
Albinion-Alba means white in Greek also means leper.
Then after that read what Romans and Greeks say about Egyptians and Ethiopians.
this stuff is there, if you truly want to know.
The question is when did White skin come in?
check again on the written history, none till the Romans arrived.
The DNA test people say one person left Europe 1000's of years ago and migrated to Europe.
I believe more than one.
I believe the remains around Stonehenge have tested Sub Saharan African by DNA!
quote:
So what was it before then? It certainly wasn't black "...i
t seems to indicate that a significant proportion of these peoples' ancestry comes from a common Near Eastern population to which (despite the differences with the Biblical genealogy) the term "Semitic" has been applied. However, this correlation should rather be attributed to said common Near Eastern origin, as for example Semitic-speaking Near Easterners from the Fertile Crescent are generally more closely related to non-Semitic speaking Near Easterners, such as Iranians, Anatolians, and Caucasians, than to other Semitic-speakers, such as Gulf Arabs, Eritrean Semites, Ethiopian Semites, and North African Arabs...."
Just read that again: Depite the differences with Bible Geneology!
Say that again 10 times.
Again I wish they would find out exactly where! I would love to know.
quote:
What are the boundaries of this topic? BLT proponents probably do make some of the claims that Tracy is making .
No longer claims, I know by now you have seen the DNA results.
First peoples come from where? Where?
So not only do I agree with Rev. Wright that Black people were first, so does every Scientist in the World now.
Goggle:National Geography, they'll tell you!
If racism is not hate then it doesnt apply to Rev. Wright. What's the big deal. Me and him part on what he bases his theology on.
the facts we agree on.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/22/2008 4:13:22 AM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 2:41:21 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I think it very appropriate to clear the air on these issues because it is the claim of BLT that Christ was Black.
Two quotes from Rev Wright which I think are both taken from the words of James Cone:
” Jesus Christ is black therefore not because of some cultural or psychological need of black people, but because and only because Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the black are, disclosing that he is with them enduring humiliation and pain and transforming oppressed slaves into liberating servants.”
“The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy.”
I'm going on what my eyes tell me, do you believe Jesus walked this earth a blond haired blue eyed man?
Again I don't like BLT,
We are trying to separate the facts from fiction
Blacks were first. DNA proves that.
anybody that even thinks that mess of James Cones is any good needs Jesus real bad.
But according to others here it's ok to be a racist. That's not hate you are reading from James.
that's only a claim your making.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 4:36:42 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Ok where in the Bible does it say they were Europeans, Semites, and Africans?
Paul was from Tarsus which is in modern-day Spain. BLT, as in its vanilla cousin LT, down plays Christ's victory over sin. Instead of the enemy being sin, both versions place the enemy as poverty. Victory is achieved when radical egalitarianism is obtained.
Ok where does it say Paul was EuropeanI agree, I don't like BLt or it's vanilla cousin either
Like your choice of words thou.
Vanilla ?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 6:50:23 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1958
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Ok where in the Bible does it say they were Europeans, Semites, and Africans?
Paul was from Tarsus which is in modern-day Spain. BLT, as in its vanilla cousin LT, down plays Christ's victory over sin. Instead of the enemy being sin, both versions place the enemy as poverty. Victory is achieved when radical egalitarianism is obtained.
Collifan,
Tarsus was NOT in Spain. It was in what is now Turkey. Spain was at the frontier of the Roman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 7:13:00 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1958
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
My beliefs! Your beliefs are based on what? I studied it, researched words, got out the Bible, looked at Rivers, whats eastward if we started in Tanzania. Up and out to Israel, got out maps, antique maps, looked up words in Hebrew and Greek,
read volumes of ancients writings, what do you got to prove that anyone is white in the Bible?
First of all, address the point I made. If the Jews were white, what would be the distinctive nature of the Ethiopian, which by nearly all accounts were black.
Second. I never claimed Jesus was white. I believe Jesus was Jewish. His skin was probably darker than mine and his hair was probably black.
quote:
2Ki 5:27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.
mentioned 66 times in Bible, the word white.
Look it up
Son 1:5 I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.
Son 1:6 Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
LOL. Naaman's skin was diseased!!! Whatever changes in his skin, it was probably not pigmentation.
Insofar as the female character in the Song of Soloman, that is hyperbole, not literalness. It likely does not refer to racial characteristics, but rather sun darkened. Hyperbolically, suntanned Middle Eastern skin could be termed "black." The point was not that she was a Negro, but that she was an outdoor worker, exposed to the sun all day.
Check this out:
[ESV] 1 Samuel 16:12
12And he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome. And the LORD said, "Arise, anoint him, for this is he."
"Ruddy" is sometimes translated as "red" meaning red-haired. It is therefore interpreted to mean that David had red hair. Frankly, I don't think that's the meaning. But, as long as we are interpreting passages out of our own bias, it is not impossible for both sides to do it. I won't go into detail, but let's not read racial characteristics into every discussion of color. That's BIAS. It's bad biblical hermeneutics and terrible theology. But two can play at that game. I'm not interested, however. I hope you won't be either. You can if you want. But if you want to improve your credibility, quoting defective hermeneutics hurts rather than helps. I've heard some of this garbage before.
quote:
Jews from South Africa Lembas are Black.
Many Jews are black because they have genes from the nation where they come from. Jews in America are white because of the Caucasian blood in them. Jews in Africa are black because of the Negroid blood in them.
That's no particular issue.
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you do know Moses married a woman from where? Ethiopia, that why Miriam was cursed with this leperosy also.
Yes, I was quite aware that Moses married an Ethiopian. So what? Miriam was cursed because she questioned Moses' authority from God. I'm not sure what point you are making. There were undoubtedly Africans (as in black and Negro) in national Israel throughout their history. That doesn't make them representative of the nation as a whole.
quote:
Maybe, what Middle Easterners? they are pretty brown.
Remember 2000 years ago, the "Nordic" Aryan, European, Gaul, whatever was not in Egypt, so where did the lightening come from?
Western Europe was not the only source of light skinned genetic material. The Phonenicians and many other races were sailing around the Mediterranean basin for a long time.
If you are making the point that Negro blood was present in Jewish lineage, you would be making the same point that I am. So, therefore, we agree! If you are trying to make the point that the Jews were predominately Negro/Black, a few representative citations does not make the point. There are several Canaanite place names in the Bible suggesting that some Jews may have Canaanite blood. So what? We are in agreement that some Jews may have been black--or not.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/22/2008 11:42:28 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 7:29:14 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2568
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Because THIS THREAD is about Black Liberation Theology and Tracy holds to some "other" theology please take any of Tracy's Doctrine to another thread.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/22/2008 7:37:55 AM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 9:12:30 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2568
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Yes it does. But that is not the same as what Tracy's doctrine. (I don't know what group holds to whatever it is that "she" believes - but she is sure free to start her own thread concerning it)
If you want to discuss what BLT teaches about a Black Jesus then PLEASE go right ahead. That is completely "on topic".
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 9:16:27 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2568
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
PW31
So that we might not get too far afield and deviate from the presumed topic. What are the boundaries of this topic? BLT proponents probably do make some of the claims that Tracy is making.
The boundried involved ONLY what BLT teaches.
I would like to keep this thread pure. Otherwise anyone such as myself who really wants to know more about the theology will get alot of false information and in the future it may "mess us up" when trying to help someone who "is" involved in this garbage.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 9:17:50 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2568
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I think it very appropriate to clear the air on these issues because it is the claim of BLT that Christ was Black.
Two quotes from Rev Wright which I think are both taken from the words of James Cone:
” Jesus Christ is black therefore not because of some cultural or psychological need of black people, but because and only because Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the black are, disclosing that he is with them enduring humiliation and pain and transforming oppressed slaves into liberating servants.”
“The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy.”
Bob
The above post is completely on topic. If someone begins to say that Jesus is black they need to be giving us the BLT's viewpoint not their own.
quote:
Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the black are,
Can we go any deeper with this view in BLT. Anyone know how they came to hold this view and their argument for it?
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/22/2008 9:26:06 AM >
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 9:26:12 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2568
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Cone: “What else can the crucifixion mean except that God, the Holy One of Israel, became identified with the victims of oppression? What else can the resurrection mean except that God’s victory in Christ is the poor person’s victory over poverty?” (Cone, Speaking the Truth; p. 6)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 10:56:53 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1958
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
I believe Ham is in the Bible as Noah's son. I also don't believe in the Hamitic curse!
Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Canaan was cursed. Ham had other sons also. I always wondered why people said the "Ham Curse" when it was Canaan. And what happened to the Canaanites?
What the nature of the curse was, I am not entirely sure. We only know that he was cursed. The case concerning Ham's curse is not an argument that I am making. So what?
quote:
And what happened to the Canaanites?
Most Canaanites were destroyed. Those remained probably were absorbed in the line of those living at the time. There were certainly Canaanites in Jesus' lineage.
quote:
Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
Gen 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
It says Nations, divided by nations. Not European or African.
I believe they were ALL Black or brown.
"Nations" generally refers to ethnic divisions. So what's your point?
quote:
so you have never read Herodutus? Father of History.?
Juluis Caesar, Tacitus, Strabo ?
Greeks and Romans.
Julius Caesar wrote about who were the Europeans to him.. about 55 B. C. A quote"
"They believe that the executions of those who have been caught in the act of theft or robbery or some crime is more pleasing to the immortal gods but when supply of such fails they resort to the execution even of the innocent."
Greeks and Romans did not consider themselves from what is Europe proper, that's what I am going on. Their words.
Some of them also believe the world was flat too. They believed most of the world revolved around them. I don't care whether or not they considered themselves a part of Europe. But they were certainly of Europe, whether they knew it or not. Good grief! Roman Italy wasn't in Africa was it? It wasn't in Asia, was it? There were only three continents that could possibly be considered. Europe is the only logical choice.
Anyway, look at some of the statues they made. Those were not black men.
quote:
They had words for Gauls, Celts, Barbarians, and ain't none of them pretty.
Albinion-Alba means white in Greek also means leper.
Then after that read what Romans and Greeks say about Egyptians and Ethiopians.
So? Ethnic slurs were around then too. I am not suggesting that they were blond-hair and blue eyes. Koreans and Japanese have had ethnic hatred for years. And they are of the similar oriental lineage. And many Black Africans hate one another to this day!! It's no biggie for Roman Italians to have considered themselves superior to Northern European Caucasians.
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I believe the remains around Stonehenge have tested Sub Saharan African by DNA!
Who knows? Maybe it's true or not. I dunno. So what? Is it a biblical issue here? I think not.
quote:
Just read that again: Depite the differences with Bible Geneology!
Say that again 10 times.
The geographic prehistory of Noah's descendants only goes so far. It's not an exhaustive history anyway. It doesn't conflict.
quote:
No longer claims, I know by now you have seen the DNA results.
Tracy, I don't have time to look up all of your links. Let me get time to look at them.
quote:
If racism is not hate then it doesnt apply to Rev. Wright. What's the big deal. Me and him part on what he bases his theology on.
True. I agree.
But who is excusing racism? I'm not.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/22/2008 11:57:26 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11537
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Okay, this thread seems to have subject matter that is addressed in one-stop threads.
RACIAL ISSUES
RACIAL ISSUES IN THE NEWS
And there is also a thread to discuss OBAMA AND WRIGHT that can be revived, if one feels absolutely compelled to do so.
I understand that this thread was begun to discuss Black Liberation Theology, but that can be accomplished in the one-stops.
Thanks!
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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I was going to reply to some of thsoe comments but don't want to if that will take the thread off track.
