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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/9/2008 2:15:12 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1162
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quote:
As long as we keep going on diatribes, making dogmatic statements and setting up straw dogs, we will get nowhere. From what I have seen in this thread, there is no clear statement in the Scriptures that any gift has been done away with. That is not to say that there are not charlatians that make charades of the gifts. The real tests are do the actions or professions violate agreed upon Scripture and do they result in better community. This can only be determined on a case by case basis. DING! That is the veritable slam dunk, IMO. There is no clear statement in the scripture that ANY of the gifts have ceased to be. Rather this is the lashing together of seperate verses to make a floatable doctrine, and not actually taking what the Bible says. Does the counterfeit countermand the reality? Absolutely not! If it did, we couldn't have dollar bills.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/9/2008 8:34:06 AM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving this thread from The Bible to The Church.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/9/2008 9:17:52 AM
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restored08
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
The "five fold ministry" is simply a rebirth of the heretical "latter rain" movement which is considered to be one of the most dangerous false teachings in the Church today.
Read about The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry
what exactly do you believe is taught in five fold ministries and what's so dangerous and false about it?
_____________________________
Titus 3:3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another."
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/9/2008 10:23:27 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1267
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As long as we keep going on diatribes, making dogmatic statements and setting up straw dogs, we will get nowhere.
I don't get it. Everyone appears to be posting in a straightforward manner to me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
From what I have seen in this thread, there is no clear statement in the Scriptures that any gift has been done away with. That is not to say that there are not charlatians that make charades of the gifts.
Well, as long as everyone "feels good" about it...hasn't that become the measure of truth?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The real tests are do the actions or professions violate agreed upon Scripture and do they result in better community. This can only be determined on a case by case basis.
I'm contending that while God can speak to His people, there are indeed people kidding each other with the five-fold teaching. They want to be important so it's easy to imagine that you're an apostle or prophet. The apostle and prophet roles were played in setting the foundation. Does God speak? Yes. Is there enough caution taken to avoid some of the animals on the farm becoming more equal than others (that's Orwell, people)? No.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/9/2008 10:43:38 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1267
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
What I mean is...if someone is speaking in tongues, or "falling out", or clucking like a chicken as one person posted ~ then they must be off their rocker, because according to a lot of people on here, that just isn't 'gifts' that were extented to us latter day Christians. I disagree. I will look and sound as foolish as any man thinks, because I SERVE MY LORD and in that, everything won’t be as the world thinks of as normal.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
Wintery~
quote:
The way I read it, 1 Corintians 14:19 leaves no room for imitating animals: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
I never made any kind of statement against this passage. In fact the topic was not directed at when and where a person 'should' be speaking in tongues. and the "clucking chickens" well that was some one elses post, I was just repeating. I have never heard any one sound like clucking chickens in any church.
Foolishness for foolishness's sake is not a good thing. Try "Counterfeit Revival" by Hanegraff, or this article
by Joseph Chambers for another perspective.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/9/2008 10:54:16 AM
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earthless
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Or 'Christianity in Crisis' by Hank Hanegraaff.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/10/2008 2:23:08 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
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quote:
There is no clear statement in the scripture that ANY of the gifts have ceased to be.
Actually 1 Corinthians 13:8 says that (1) prophecy, (2) tongues and (3) knowledge shall cease, vanish, disappear, be done away with.
A large number of Christians believe that after the last book of the Bible was written, these three gifts vanished away. And none of the "Apostolic Fathers" claimed to exhibit these gifts. That should be sufficient proof.
Furthermore, James teaches that when a Christian is sick, he is to call for the elders of the church to pray for his healing (James 5). If the gift of healing was to continue ad infinitum, he would have instructed the Christians to call for those with the gift of healing. That gift began to disappear even while the apostles were alive, since Paul could not heal Epaphroditus though he dearly longed to see him healed. It was prayer that brought healing in this case also.
Once again, the Early Church Fathers did not claim to heal, because they could not heal. And today's faith healers have generally been found to be charlatans.
Today's claims of signs and wonders (which accompany apostles and prophets) need to be viewed very skeptically, since we are warned of "lying wonders" in Scripture. The problem is that some Christians are not satisfied with just the Scriptures. They are always looking for "something more".
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/10/2008 8:16:02 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The problem is that some Christians are not satisfied with just the Scriptures. They are always looking for "something more".
And that was made crystal clear by some in the 'Near Death Experiences' thread.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/10/2008 10:48:48 AM
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cybrjewls
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LOL!! Another book promotion....!
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Or 'Christianity in Crisis' by Hank Hanegraaff.
< Message edited by .prophetica. -- 4/10/2008 10:49:00 PM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/10/2008 10:51:01 AM
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earthless
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prophetica,
Sorry? I didn't know we couldn't recommend a reading resource to another member of the board.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/10/2008 4:35:49 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1832
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quote:
A large number of Christians believe that after the last book of the Bible was written, these three gifts vanished away. And none of the "Apostolic Fathers" claimed to exhibit these gifts. That should be sufficient proof.
I don't like the habit that some christians have of "claiming" the gifts. Whether the gift is one of teaching or one of prophesying or if one can even raise the dead it's nothing to boast of. They come from the same Spirit. Some times the "claiming" sounds more like "boasting" which I dislike.
quote:
Furthermore, James teaches that when a Christian is sick, he is to call for the elders of the church to pray for his healing (James 5). If the gift of healing was to continue ad infinitum, he would have instructed the Christians to call for those with the gift of healing. That gift began to disappear even while the apostles were alive, since Paul could not heal Epaphroditus though he dearly longed to see him healed. It was prayer that brought healing in this case also.
Once again, the Early Church Fathers did not claim to heal, because they could not heal. And today's faith healers have generally been found to be charlatans.
I agree with you Ezra on the modern day faith healers being "charlatans". I do believe that God can use people to heal miraculously because I don't believe that the gifts have ceased though I haven't seen a miraculous healing yet. I haven't seen Jesus yet but I believe in Him to. I also see that scripturally people got healed in different ways- some with prayer, some actually didn't, some miraculously, some conventionally (I like to use the example of Paul telling Timothy to drink some red wine for his stomach. No faith healing, no making him feel unworthy by telling him he doesn't give enough money to the church, etc. etc. just practical sense and no one would say that either man lacked faith. ).
Personally, I think the reason there isn't much written down by the early father's on the gifts is the same reason there isn't much written in the bible itself - the gifts were never meant to be the end but a means to that end. The end being what I believe is to advance the kingdom of God and to help make the church ready for the return of the Lord.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/10/2008 11:30:08 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
prophetica,
Sorry? I didn't know we couldn't recommend a reading resource to another member of the board.
of course we can as long as the recommendation doesn't violate TOS.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/10/2008 11:31:22 PM
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Kath
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I deleted a post for TOS 9 and the post that responded to it. Please do not engage in unwelcome counsel or the post will be removed and a report filed against your account.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/12/2008 11:50:42 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 534
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
Just like if you don't believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation, you are not a Baptist church
Hmmm, after 20 years spent in Baptist churches ive never been in one that believed that. Baptism required for salvation?, nope, not our theology.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/13/2008 6:38:57 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
As long as we keep going on diatribes, making dogmatic statements and setting up straw dogs, we will get nowhere. From what I have seen in this thread, there is no clear statement in the Scriptures that any gift has been done away with. That is not to say that there are not charlatians that make charades of the gifts. The real tests are do the actions or professions violate agreed upon Scripture and do they result in better community. This can only be determined on a case by case basis. DING! That is the veritable slam dunk, IMO. There is no clear statement in the scripture that ANY of the gifts have ceased to be. Rather this is the lashing together of seperate verses to make a floatable doctrine, and not actually taking what the Bible says. Does the counterfeit countermand the reality? Absolutely not! If it did, we couldn't have dollar bills.
Adam
I agree. There is no scriptural reference to those things ending. And there are prophets and apostles out there today. I totally believe that Heidi and Rolland Baker are apostles. Heidi Baker has seen Jesus and He himself commissioned her, raised the dead, healed the blind, they've planted over 5000 churches in Mozambique and are overseers of the pastors of those churches and teach a bible college for these pastors. They have been persecuted, attempts have been made on their lives over the years where God has supernaturaly rescued them. Every thing that qualifies an apostle is what they have experienced.
And in all this, they have eye-witnesses to their ministry by 100's of missionaries who have joined forces with them from many nations around the world who many have written of their eye-witness accounts of Iris Ministries.
Here's the link to their ministry:
http://www.irismin.org/
tens of thousands of people have been saved in the past 2 months in the huge revival they're having there. It's a beautiful thing.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 4/13/2008 6:52:35 PM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/13/2008 6:41:10 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The problem is that some Christians are not satisfied with just the Scriptures. They are always looking for "something more".
And that was made crystal clear by some in the 'Near Death Experiences' thread.
*L* And here it is again, it goes through every thread. Boy you guys just couldn't stand hearing about a miracle. God is so good to ruffle our feathers when we need ruffling. I truly praise Him for that.
keep getting your feathers' ruffled, guys. It's good for the soul eventually.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/13/2008 10:53:33 PM
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SD456
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I'm pretty much convinced of that by the way some of you talk in these forums.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/13/2008 10:56:33 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 148
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The problem is that some Christians are not satisfied with just the Scriptures. They are always looking for "something more".
And that was made crystal clear by some in the 'Near Death Experiences' thread.
*L* And here it is again, it goes through every thread. Boy you guys just couldn't stand hearing about a miracle. God is so good to ruffle our feathers when we need ruffling. I truly praise Him for that.
keep getting your feathers' ruffled, guys. It's good for the soul eventually.
I was talking with my grandfather the other day and he asked me why we don't see a large number of eye-popping wow miracles in this country anymore. Things like resurrections, limb regenerations things of that nature. And I do believe things like that can happen because with God nothing is impossible. So i looked at him and said 'Look around you. There across that street is a Baptist church, a Church of Christ, a Methodist and a Presbyterian church. Four churches within view of your house. Now look at the stories you hear from Brazil and other countries of the jaw-dropping miracles being performed. Do you see a church on ever corner there? We are like Pharisees asking God for 'something more'. Why did Jesus do miracles and wonders during His earthly ministry? Is that the sole reason He was put here? No, He did signs and wonders so people would believe. We have churches all around us. We 'believe'. Some people in other countries have never heard the gospel. And to think we are arrogant enough to ask for 'something more'.
_____________________________
If you question what I'm teaching you
You rebel against the Father too.
- Steve Taylor from "I Manipulate"
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/13/2008 11:34:20 PM
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SD456
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I would beg to differ with that point. Most of the western church does not 'believe' as evidenced in how they do not move in the supernatural power of God.
The miracles happen in 3rd world countries because they are raised with a natural belief in the supernatural. When they get saved they're told, "Jesus can do this," and they simply believe and move out in those gifts and heal and raise the dead, etc.
The western church no longer believes. The few that ask for Jesus to go with them and perform signs and miracles are really going against a western mindset of rationalization that rationalizes God's power away.
And when they do ask Jesus to go with them with His power, they are actually critisized by other christians for 'asking for more', as if asking God to back us up with His power is something foreign to christianity and is asking too much from God. It isn't.
God said He could do abundantly far more than we could ever ask or imagine.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 12:08:22 AM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 148
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From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I would beg to differ with that point. Most of the western church does not 'believe' as evidenced in how they do not move in the supernatural power of God.
The miracles happen in 3rd world countries because they are raised with a natural belief in the supernatural. When they get saved they're told, "Jesus can do this," and they simply believe and move out in those gifts and heal and raise the dead, etc.
The western church no longer believes. The few that ask for Jesus to go with them and perform signs and miracles are really going against a western mindset of rationalization that rationalizes God's power away.
And when they do ask Jesus to go with them with His power, they are actually critisized by other christians for 'asking for more', as if asking God to back us up with His power is something foreign to christianity and is asking too much from God. It isn't.
God said He could do abundantly far more than we could ever ask or imagine.
I did put 'believe' in quotes, and I realize that much of western religion has turned away from the supernatural and powerful Christianity. We are getting too comfortable in our own skin. We are jaded. But there's a reason we send out missionaries to people who've never heard. We have the Word of God at our fingertips in more ways than anyone could imagine. We have churches on every corner. Even if no one has ever witnessed to a certain person in this country, that person has more than likely seen a church sign or read a Gideon's Bible in a motel room or heard a sermon on radio or television. I'm not saying that God healing someone after prayer isn't a wonderful miracle. I just happen to believe that's why your more spectacular 'wow-wee' miracles happen elsewhere. I don't think Jesus needed to perform spectacular miracles for those who had the Word (but He did), but for the people who didn't. But that's just one man's opinion.
_____________________________
If you question what I'm teaching you
You rebel against the Father too.
- Steve Taylor from "I Manipulate"
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 6:24:43 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1162
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From: Kansas City, MO
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I had the opportunity to sit under a pastor from Mozambique and someone asked him why the Western church doesn't see more miracles. His answer was a simple one...
"In Africa, if we fall sick we will die. In America, you go to Hospital and your insurance pays for it. The Western Believers do not see as many miracles because they don't need God."
This is why the Joel 2 prophecy becomes much more important to us. If things are going to get as bad as the Bible says they are, we will all need God to perform some hefty miracles through the Spirit. That is why there will be the pouring out of the Spirit "on all flesh".
Ironically, the reason there are more miracles happening in Africa is the exact same reason I believe that the Apostles and Prophets have not ceased. If they function in a purely foundational role... have all people groups heard the Gospel? (no) Have we stopped building the House? (no) If the miracles are to convince people to believe, then there are some who need a foundation to build on. Until all five ministries cease to be at the second coming, all five must be active, because all five are still needed.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 9:18:21 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1504
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
...Have we stopped building the House? (no)
Adam
We may be still building the church, but the foundation is FINISHED. The foundation that WAS built (PAST TENSE) on the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone.
People have the Word of God and all the signs and wonders it contains. There is NO need for any of these "new" Apostles and Prophets to add anything.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 10:00:53 AM
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sue244
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From: Colorado
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quote:
If the miracles are to convince people to believe
the sign gifts were to authenticate the message of the apostles not to convince people to believe.
I will ask this question again to see if I could ever actually get an answer.
what is the sign of the apostles? 2 Cor 12:12?
Another thing I realized about this is in the early church creed of the Gospel 1 Cor. 15:3-8
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Jesus was seen of ALL the apostles, and this is in the past tense which means ALL ths apostles had already seen Him.
Just another proof that apostles were for the 1 century to build the foundation and we are now building on what they laid, we are not still building a foundation.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 12:57:17 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1267
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I agree. There is no scriptural reference to those things ending. And there are prophets and apostles out there today.
Be sure to visit the table in the "for-yay" on the way out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I totally believe that Heidi and Rolland Baker are apostles.
They don't.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
Heidi Baker has seen Jesus and He himself commissioned her, raised the dead, healed the blind, they've planted over 5000 churches in Mozambique and are overseers of the pastors of those churches and teach a bible college for these pastors. They have been persecuted, attempts have been made on their lives over the years where God has supernaturaly rescued them. Every thing that qualifies an apostle is what they have experienced.
The web site you referenced says their ministry has expanded to 5,000 churches, not that they planted them.
What's really a strain on the Bakers' credibility however, is also found on their own website. They are a part of the same, usual crowd of those who are at least considered controversial. Their website says they will ordain a daughter at Che Ahn's church. Their speaking calendar includes events with Rick Joyner, Wes and Stacey Campbell, Jim Goll, and John and Carol Arnott of the Toronto Airport barnyard.
They speak on the website of their Revival Alliance partners which led me to search out this website. It is the website of Randy Clark, famed for involvement in the Toronto "blessing". On this page you can read of his endorsement from John Wimber, “You are a prince in the Kingdom of God.”
So it's the same crowd that run their own lives and the lives of others off of supposed direct revelation from God, that always puts these people on a social and spiritual platform above the crowd, that is ever-seeking experience and supernatural manifestations and a feel-good moment from their meetings, this same crowd that the Bakers associate with. That strains their credibility to me.
By the way, as far as being "apostles" you can certainly pay a fee to be licensed under the Apostolic Network on this page.
A friend tells me if I want to be ordained by an Apostle I'm gonna need a shovel.
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