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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/19/2008 10:26:58 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
Context context context. I'm not arguint that all in this sense means eveyrone in the world, so thats a redharing to pull out universalism. I'm saying that it says ALL the Apostles. meaning ALL of the Apostles as in it is referring to the Apostles.
It is not a "redharing", it is reality. Does it mean all as in all "All apostles" or "all the current Apostles"? That is what I am digging at with this line. You're argument is that Christ appeared to all apostles to mean that the only Apostles are those whom Christ has appeared to. My argument is that Christ did appear to all the Apostles... All 13 of them (the 12 and Paul). But that that particular phrase is referring to the 13 Apostles in existence at the time. This is not a closing off of the term "apostle", but a statement of fact that the 13 Apostles had all seen Christ.quote:
No one is saying it has, so that is another redhairing. What we are saying is that once you starting building the house you don't keep adding to the foundation, you build up fromt he foundation. It is in no way a "redhairing". There are certain laws of construction that tell us if you build upwards, you either need a wide enough foundation to anchor the building down, or you need to sink the foundation way down into the earth... or the building is going to topple at the first wind. Let me phrase this differently... according to Paul, Christ is the foundation. However, that verse is also written in the past tense (Ephesians 2). Has the ministry of Christ ceased to function? Of course not. People are still brough to salvation, Jesus is still making intercession on behalf of the saints, and Jesus still reveals himself to people that seek Him. So how can we say that this past tense verse does not limit Jesus' ministry to the foundation of the house but it does limit the Apostolic? This is quite literally a butchering of scripture to prove a point.
Were you to ask me without guile, I would tell you straight up that I personally believe that we are so quick to exile the apostle and prophet because we have interior issues against submitting to authority. However, that is my personal opinion and we can argue over that some other time.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/19/2008 11:04:34 PM
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sue244
Posts: 358
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
Context context context. I'm not arguint that all in this sense means eveyrone in the world, so thats a redharing to pull out universalism. I'm saying that it says ALL the Apostles. meaning ALL of the Apostles as in it is referring to the Apostles.
It is not a "redharing", it is reality. Does it mean all as in all "All apostles" or "all the current Apostles"? That is what I am digging at with this line. You're argument is that Christ appeared to all apostles to mean that the only Apostles are those whom Christ has appeared to. My argument is that Christ did appear to all the Apostles... All 13 of them (the 12 and Paul). But that that particular phrase is referring to the 13 Apostles in existence at the time. This is not a closing off of the term "apostle", but a statement of fact that the 13 Apostles had all seen Christ.quote:
No one is saying it has, so that is another redhairing. What we are saying is that once you starting building the house you don't keep adding to the foundation, you build up fromt he foundation. It is in no way a "redhairing". There are certain laws of construction that tell us if you build upwards, you either need a wide enough foundation to anchor the building down, or you need to sink the foundation way down into the earth... or the building is going to topple at the first wind. Let me phrase this differently... according to Paul, Christ is the foundation. However, that verse is also written in the past tense (Ephesians 2). Has the ministry of Christ ceased to function? Of course not. People are still brough to salvation, Jesus is still making intercession on behalf of the saints, and Jesus still reveals himself to people that seek Him. So how can we say that this past tense verse does not limit Jesus' ministry to the foundation of the house but it does limit the Apostolic? This is quite literally a butchering of scripture to prove a point.
Were you to ask me without guile, I would tell you straight up that I personally believe that we are so quick to exile the apostle and prophet because we have interior issues against submitting to authority. However, that is my personal opinion and we can argue over that some other time.
Adam
I would think that Christ being the foundation and the cornerstone, is big enough, and strong enough to support the church, that HE is building.
The foundation is still doing its job of supporting the church today though the Bible, and teaching of the Apostles we have in the Bible. There is no need to keep building a bigger foundation, since we have all we need for faith and pracitce within the Bible.
Opinion noted about me and others not submitting to authority.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/20/2008 1:21:02 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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It is written, however, build yourselves up in The Most Holy Faith. This person began to build, but was not able to afford the cost of completing the lifelong project of building on so Great a Foundation is written. Houses built on sand will fall down under testing by fire. Houses built on the Rock will remain. If anyone builds on this Foundation with precious stones and stubble is written. We are called to be builders on The Rock Foundation found at Holy Scripture. God called us out of Babylon to create us anew in Christ Jesus as citizens of New Jerusalem unto Good fruits that will last, standing the testing of our 'work' that it may be shown that what was done was done through God on the Day of Judgment to come.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
Context context context. I'm not arguint that all in this sense means eveyrone in the world, so thats a redharing to pull out universalism. I'm saying that it says ALL the Apostles. meaning ALL of the Apostles as in it is referring to the Apostles.
It is not a "redharing", it is reality. Does it mean all as in all "All apostles" or "all the current Apostles"? That is what I am digging at with this line. You're argument is that Christ appeared to all apostles to mean that the only Apostles are those whom Christ has appeared to. My argument is that Christ did appear to all the Apostles... All 13 of them (the 12 and Paul). But that that particular phrase is referring to the 13 Apostles in existence at the time. This is not a closing off of the term "apostle", but a statement of fact that the 13 Apostles had all seen Christ.quote:
No one is saying it has, so that is another redhairing. What we are saying is that once you starting building the house you don't keep adding to the foundation, you build up fromt he foundation. It is in no way a "redhairing". There are certain laws of construction that tell us if you build upwards, you either need a wide enough foundation to anchor the building down, or you need to sink the foundation way down into the earth... or the building is going to topple at the first wind. Let me phrase this differently... according to Paul, Christ is the foundation. However, that verse is also written in the past tense (Ephesians 2). Has the ministry of Christ ceased to function? Of course not. People are still brough to salvation, Jesus is still making intercession on behalf of the saints, and Jesus still reveals himself to people that seek Him. So how can we say that this past tense verse does not limit Jesus' ministry to the foundation of the house but it does limit the Apostolic? This is quite literally a butchering of scripture to prove a point.
Were you to ask me without guile, I would tell you straight up that I personally believe that we are so quick to exile the apostle and prophet because we have interior issues against submitting to authority. However, that is my personal opinion and we can argue over that some other time.
Adam
I would think that Christ being the foundation and the cornerstone, is big enough, and strong enough to support the church, that HE is building.
The foundation is still doing its job of supporting the church today though the Bible, and teaching of the Apostles we have in the Bible. There is no need to keep building a bigger foundation, since we have all we need for faith and pracitce within the Bible.
Opinion noted about me and others not submitting to authority.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/20/2008 9:10:30 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
I would think that Christ being the foundation and the cornerstone, is big enough, and strong enough to support the church, that HE is building.
The foundation is still doing its job of supporting the church today though the Bible, and teaching of the Apostles we have in the Bible. There is no need to keep building a bigger foundation, since we have all we need for faith and pracitce within the Bible. But you see, the Apostles were not. So who is your foundation? Christ or the Apostles? What happens when a new people group gets added and they don't have the written word? They have no foundation of Apostles and Prophets to build on, so they are doomed to fall at some point, right? Sola Scriptura is all well and good for arguing doctrine... but when you hold that opinion at the expense of actual people, you are taking it too far. It is very true, the church has been built upon the foundation layed by the 13 Apostles and Christ, but the church is still growing outwards through previously unreached people groups. By your reasoning, if you don't have a Bible, you have no foundation... and that is obviously not the case (look at Mozambique... one Bible for every twenty pastors). That is my point, not everyone has a Bible, Western Denominational structure, or even the means to access either... so the Apostles and Prophets still have a call to give leadership to the church in the Third World at least.quote:
Opinion noted about me and others not submitting to authority. I said nothing about you or anyone else on the forum. I made a generic statement about why I believe the doctrine is so prevalent. If you desire to be offended, I can't change that.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/20/2008 10:42:00 PM
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sue244
Posts: 358
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
I would think that Christ being the foundation and the cornerstone, is big enough, and strong enough to support the church, that HE is building.
The foundation is still doing its job of supporting the church today though the Bible, and teaching of the Apostles we have in the Bible. There is no need to keep building a bigger foundation, since we have all we need for faith and pracitce within the Bible. But you see, the Apostles were not. So who is your foundation? Christ or the Apostles? What happens when a new people group gets added and they don't have the written word? They have no foundation of Apostles and Prophets to build on, so they are doomed to fall at some point, right? Sola Scriptura is all well and good for arguing doctrine... but when you hold that opinion at the expense of actual people, you are taking it too far. It is very true, the church has been built upon the foundation layed by the 13 Apostles and Christ, but the church is still growing outwards through previously unreached people groups. By your reasoning, if you don't have a Bible, you have no foundation... and that is obviously not the case (look at Mozambique... one Bible for every twenty pastors). That is my point, not everyone has a Bible, Western Denominational structure, or even the means to access either... so the Apostles and Prophets still have a call to give leadership to the church in the Third World at least.quote:
Opinion noted about me and others not submitting to authority. I said nothing about you or anyone else on the forum. I made a generic statement about why I believe the doctrine is so prevalent. If you desire to be offended, I can't change that.
Adam
So Missonaries don't take Bible's with them to new people group? Maybe the should just declare themselves to be apostles and not worry about the Bible by that logic.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/21/2008 3:55:42 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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hello KC 'group' guy. Scripture teaches concerning the foundation: built upon the foundation laid by Christ through the Prophets and Apostles of God who are chosen by Christ while on earth specifically for these Works. One must not go beyond what is written in these matters. Eveything must be built upon the foundation or the whole house will come to ruin when the wind and floods come. The flood is the testing put forth by God of each persons work. The whole house could be swept away if part of the house is built upon sand! Everything would be lost. Salvation is at stake. Our very souls hang in the balance of The Lords Judgment over things. It is too hard to learn these things on The Last Day of The Great White Throne Judgment before whom everyone must stand to give account for what was done. If what was done was done through God, it will remain. That each persons work may be shown to have been done through God, for God will bring to light what was hidden in the darkness and expose the truth about the motives of people. What you hear me say in private, shout from the rooftops.
The greatest is the least, one must stand up and be counted among those who are counted worthy of the inheritance of eternal life. We are all in the process of working the relationship that God began with us out unto eternal salvation. We are continuing, daily, to work out things with Him right up until the Day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
I would think that Christ being the foundation and the cornerstone, is big enough, and strong enough to support the church, that HE is building.
The foundation is still doing its job of supporting the church today though the Bible, and teaching of the Apostles we have in the Bible. There is no need to keep building a bigger foundation, since we have all we need for faith and pracitce within the Bible. But you see, the Apostles were not. So who is your foundation? Christ or the Apostles? What happens when a new people group gets added and they don't have the written word? They have no foundation of Apostles and Prophets to build on, so they are doomed to fall at some point, right? Sola Scriptura is all well and good for arguing doctrine... but when you hold that opinion at the expense of actual people, you are taking it too far. It is very true, the church has been built upon the foundation layed by the 13 Apostles and Christ, but the church is still growing outwards through previously unreached people groups. By your reasoning, if you don't have a Bible, you have no foundation... and that is obviously not the case (look at Mozambique... one Bible for every twenty pastors). That is my point, not everyone has a Bible, Western Denominational structure, or even the means to access either... so the Apostles and Prophets still have a call to give leadership to the church in the Third World at least.quote:
Opinion noted about me and others not submitting to authority. I said nothing about you or anyone else on the forum. I made a generic statement about why I believe the doctrine is so prevalent. If you desire to be offended, I can't change that.
Adam
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/21/2008 4:07:56 AM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/21/2008 5:54:21 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
So Missonaries don't take Bible's with them to new people group? Maybe the should just declare themselves to be apostles and not worry about the Bible by that logic. If the Bible has yet to be translated into that language, then no. An English Bible won't do much good in the deep jungles of the South Pacific when the natives have no idea that white people exist much less the language they speak.
What was the function of the Apostle in the early church? They planted churches, excercised spiritual authority over those churches, they walked in signs and wonders to prove their ministry, and they taught the doctrines of Christ. Yet there seems to be this idea that the main reason for the Apostle was to author the Bible. Remember, the vast majority of the New Testament is merely letters written by the Apostles to churches or individuals over which they had spiritual authority.
My point in mentioning the strength of the foundation of the Apostles is merely to point out that they were men, just like us. Jesus, however, is the one and only God-man.quote:
hello KC 'group' guy. Hi..... I.... guess.....?quote:
Scripture teaches concerning the foundation: built upon the foundation laid by Christ through the Prophets and Apostles of God who are chosen by Christ while on earth specifically for these Works. One must not go beyond what is written in these matters. Eveything must be built upon the foundation or the whole house will come to ruin when the wind and floods come. You have failed to grasp my intentional cynicism and sarcasm. I am not arguing against the foundational nature of the original 13 Apostles. What I am arguing against is the idea that those 13 are the ONLY apostles. So I shall dispense with the rest of your post as it is not actually referring to anything I am attempting to argue. There is no Biblical evidence of any standing that proves that the Apostles are limited to the 1st Century... and THAT is my point.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/21/2008 6:05:44 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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There are only 24 elders which are written about in revelation as having thrones and crowns before God. 13 of them are The Holy Apostles of God, and the rest are the Patriarchs and some of the Prophets. The only type of 'a'postle that is extent in todays Church are the Bishop and Overseer placements within The Body of Christ. There is every Good Scripturally Sound Doctrinal reason not to go beyond what The Apostles and Prophets have written for us. One must not add to The Gospels or they may be found false.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
So Missonaries don't take Bible's with them to new people group? Maybe the should just declare themselves to be apostles and not worry about the Bible by that logic. If the Bible has yet to be translated into that language, then no. An English Bible won't do much good in the deep jungles of the South Pacific when the natives have no idea that white people exist much less the language they speak.
What was the function of the Apostle in the early church? They planted churches, excercised spiritual authority over those churches, they walked in signs and wonders to prove their ministry, and they taught the doctrines of Christ. Yet there seems to be this idea that the main reason for the Apostle was to author the Bible. Remember, the vast majority of the New Testament is merely letters written by the Apostles to churches or individuals over which they had spiritual authority.
My point in mentioning the strength of the foundation of the Apostles is merely to point out that they were men, just like us. Jesus, however, is the one and only God-man.quote:
hello KC 'group' guy. Hi..... I.... guess.....?quote:
Scripture teaches concerning the foundation: built upon the foundation laid by Christ through the Prophets and Apostles of God who are chosen by Christ while on earth specifically for these Works. One must not go beyond what is written in these matters. Eveything must be built upon the foundation or the whole house will come to ruin when the wind and floods come. You have failed to grasp my intentional cynicism and sarcasm. I am not arguing against the foundational nature of the original 13 Apostles. What I am arguing against is the idea that those 13 are the ONLY apostles. So I shall dispense with the rest of your post as it is not actually referring to anything I am attempting to argue. There is no Biblical evidence of any standing that proves that the Apostles are limited to the 1st Century... and THAT is my point.
Adam
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/21/2008 10:50:43 AM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
You have failed to grasp my intentional cynicism and sarcasm.
Adam, don't you know that sarcasm is often misunderstood on the web? When online in a message board, we don't have the benefit of tone of voice, body language, etc. as cues that something is intended as sarcasm.
_____________________________
less junk, more Jesus
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/21/2008 4:47:09 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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Amen, any authority or office ordained or gifting with power given of God will be held to account for the whole counsel of Sound Scriptural Doctrine before The Great White Throne Judgment Seat of The Most High. This is why Christ warned us regarding those who had certain signs. That they could use the gifting to deceive people as Balaam deceived some of the tribes of Israel in the days of Moses the servant of Jesus The Messiah.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Don'cha think there's reason to exercise a great deal of caution when considering those who teach too much about "today's apostles"? Isn't the next logical thing to ask, "Well, WHO are they, and where are they?"
I think even you would laugh at some of the "apostles" I could link you to.
You mentioned previously something about "spiritual authority". Can we agree that such "authority" has been used wrongly? And that it has been taken wrongly in the first place--I mean the power has been assumed by some. What authority would supercede the Scriptures? The only reason to promote that "higher authority" exists than is being recognized is to bring about that recognition. If there are already those who call themselves generals and princes, kings are not that far a stretch. So apostles? Who needs 'em?
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
If we go down the road of recognizing present-day "apostles", we can say by the Scripture above that some would deem themselves of more importance than the Apostles who walked with Christ.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/21/2008 5:09:54 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Don'cha think there's reason to exercise a great deal of caution when considering those who teach too much about "today's apostles"? Isn't the next logical thing to ask, "Well, WHO are they, and where are they?"
I think even you would laugh at some of the "apostles" I could link you to. I never said anything against showing caution. All I'm am arguing is that the Apostle and Prophet still exist... not that every yahoo claiming to be one is one. The next logical thing to ask if they still exist is why we don't see many if any acting within the church. The reason is simple... it is rare to see the kind of devotion to Christ in the church that was expressed by the early church.
Yes, I would laugh heartily and then pray for wisdom and revelation at many who call themselves apostle. Not just because they take the title and have none of the authority or doctrinal clarity of the same, but because the title of Apostle has been cheapened to mean "itinerant minister" or "church planter" by some.quote:
You mentioned previously something about "spiritual authority". Can we agree that such "authority" has been used wrongly? Yes, about that we can agree.quote:
And that it has been taken wrongly in the first place--I mean the power has been assumed by some. What authority would supercede the Scriptures? The only reason to promote that "higher authority" exists than is being recognized is to bring about that recognition. If there are already those who call themselves generals and princes, kings are not that far a stretch. Once again, a counterfeit $100 bill does not disprove the existence of $100 bills. You are using the idea that because some people have assumed authority that is not theirs, nobody has that authority... and that is a logical fallacy.quote:
Adam, don't you know that sarcasm is often misunderstood on the web? When online in a message board, we don't have the benefit of tone of voice, body language, etc. as cues that something is intended as sarcasm. Yes I know. That is why my sarcasm and cynicism are also blessed with a touch of the hyperbolic and absurd to make it more obvious that I'm poking at something.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/21/2008 7:26:06 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, a counterfeit $100 bill does not disprove the existence of $100 bills. You are using the idea that because some people have assumed authority that is not theirs, nobody has that authority... and that is a logical fallacy
Adam
Adam, we have real $1000000 bills at Scripture, why do we need to approve of barely $100 as though it were the same amount? But one must put that money to work to gain the $100 bills as written in the parable of the talents.
No one need add or take away anything from all that is written is Testimony of Jesus at Holy Gospel. Not an iota, will by any means, fall out of the law until the Day of Judgment after all these things are completed.
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/21/2008 9:50:28 PM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/22/2008 10:32:50 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1749
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The next logical thing to ask if they still exist is why we don't see many if any acting within the church. The reason is simple... it is rare to see the kind of devotion to Christ in the church that was expressed by the early church.
I don't know if you're saying that devotion to Christ brings about a submission to apostles, that they exist but are not recognized due to a fault of Christians collectively. That would sound like the reasoning of someone who desired to be over others, or someone who desires to be under such a person.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
You are using the idea that because some people have assumed authority that is not theirs, nobody has that authority... and that is a logical fallacy.
It was more in the vein of general thoughts on people who want to be apostles, but I forgot I hadn't told you that I do go along with Ephesians 2:20 being a past tense foundation; they established the foundation even if some were still living. They didn't have to stop being what they were because they had accomplished the task.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/23/2008 2:41:31 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't know if you're saying that devotion to Christ brings about a submission to apostles, that they exist but are not recognized due to a fault of Christians collectively. That would sound like the reasoning of someone who desired to be over others, or someone who desires to be under such a person. Wrong. I am saying that Apostles are commissioned as such because of their devotion to God. Until the church begins to walk in the same level of dedication and devotion that the first century church walked in, we will not walk in the spiritual power and authority that the first century church had.quote:
It was more in the vein of general thoughts on people who want to be apostles, but I forgot I hadn't told you that I do go along with Ephesians 2:20 being a past tense foundation; they established the foundation even if some were still living. They didn't have to stop being what they were because they had accomplished the task. Okay, so I will ask you simply... what foundation do you say that the Apostles laid? Obviously the foundation they layed could not be the scripture because only 5 out of 13 actually authored books of the Bible, and at the time of Ephesians being written half the New Testament had not been put to papyrus yet. So either the past tense of Ephesians 2:20 was referring to something else as the foundation they built, or there were actually only 5 Apostles. Eventually this line of thinking will drive you into a theological corner that isn't pretty.
Consider this... perhaps the foundation of the Apostles is that they were the first to preach the risen Christ? Perhaps the foundation being spoken of is that the Apostles are the foundation of the local church that they plant? Remember, the book of Ephesians is written specifically to the Ephesians, and not to all Christians everywhere. Surely, much of the book is applicable to the Universal church, but quite a bit of it is specifically to the church at Ephesus.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/23/2008 5:51:27 AM
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rlj
Posts: 1985
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
If we go down the road of recognizing present-day "apostles", we can say by the Scripture above that some would deem themselves of more importance than the Apostles who walked with Christ.
There are Pastors who think that but no one mentions doing away with all Pastors.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/23/2008 10:46:48 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1749
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Okay, so I will ask you simply... what foundation do you say that the Apostles laid?
1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Consider this... perhaps the foundation of the Apostles is that they were the first to preach the risen Christ?
Adam
Yes, they established the Gospel of Christ.
"apostle" seems to be used by some to give more honor than a "lesser" title, but there is more than one group that wants to "certify" men as apostles through their organization and I think that's really off-track. Also the city-church concept and the "apostles" that would rule over the churches of such a city, it's really unnecessary and not something I buy into. I don't get in too big of a wad over the idea that plant many churches might be "apostle-like", but how about this--Philippians 2:5-7:
2:5
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
2:7
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Would it the same attitude of Christ Jesus to seek to be an "apostle" with authority over numerous churches, and I take it the apostles crowd of the Third Wave view the very words out of their mouths with quite high regard? Again it's a dangerous path to place that kind of position on a person. People are prone to failure. I've googled up these apostle certifiers before and clicked through their sites. A person has to really be desiring to be recognized as an apostle to pay money for it.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/23/2008 10:48:44 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1749
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
If we go down the road of recognizing present-day "apostles", we can say by the Scripture above that some would deem themselves of more importance than the Apostles who walked with Christ.
There are Pastors who think that but no one mentions doing away with all Pastors.
Yes, but they're not bringing back "pastors", and pastors never had that level of authority--which is why they want to be called "apostles".
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/23/2008 3:55:02 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1985
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes, but they're not bringing back "pastors", and pastors never had that level of authority--which is why they want to be called "apostles".
Where were Pastors from about the 2nd century to about the 17th?
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/23/2008 11:10:23 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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Hello in The Lord! The ministry of prophecy has not ceased since Adam and Eve talked to God in the Garden of Eden. For it is written that mankind began to call on The Name of The Lord in those days. Yet, it is written: The Word of The Lord was rare in those days. Therefore, at times, The Lord is not speaking in that manner. Yet, through people who had wisdom and other gifts The Lord's Word was made known.
Therefore, there is room in The Kingdom of God's army for 'captains of 100' and every other designation and calling that Christ has prepared with differing glories and functions. Generals included. Then there are the 24 Princes of the Covenant of God with thrones and crowns. For it is written in Daniel that a Prince of the Covenant of God will be swept away during the time of Antiochus Epiphinanes, an antichrist.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
If we go down the road of recognizing present-day "apostles", we can say by the Scripture above that some would deem themselves of more importance than the Apostles who walked with Christ.
There are Pastors who think that but no one mentions doing away with all Pastors.
Yes, but they're not bringing back "pastors", and pastors never had that level of authority--which is why they want to be called "apostles".
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/24/2008 10:29:55 AM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/24/2008 6:17:33 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Okay, so I will ask you simply... what foundation do you say that the Apostles laid?
1 Corinthians 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
So then Ephesians 2:20 must be wrong when it says that the foundation is the Apostles and Prophets, right? quote:
Yes, they established the Gospel of Christ. Meaning what, exactly? Of the four Gospels, two of them were not written by Apostles (Mark and Luke). Secondly, in third world countries and far off islands where they do not have the Bible, the foundation of Christ has yet to be laid in those lands. That being said, if the ministry of the Apostles is to lay the foundation of Christ, they are still necessary in those lands. This is where the argument breaks down, because we are discussing the dressed up, 21st century, Enlightened, first world type Christianity, to the exclusion of the poor, common, downtrodden, and previously unknown peoples. However, I would suggest to you that the Bible was authored specifically for the poor, common, and downtrodden because that is who Christ went to first... not the highly educated establishment.quote:
"apostle" seems to be used by some to give more honor than a "lesser" title, but there is more than one group that wants to "certify" men as apostles through their organization and I think that's really off-track. Agreed, there are greedy persons who seek the honor of being an Apostle and there are organizations that will certify anyone with cash to be an Apostle, and that is off-track. However, none of this necessitates that the ministry of the Apostle has ceased altogether. That is the second strike in this discussion. As yet, no arguments have been given that are mutually exclusive with the office of Apostle being finished. As I have already mentioned, three of the five still exist, and hermaneutically that gives us a solid base upon which to say that the other two do as well.quote:
Also the city-church concept and the "apostles" that would rule over the churches of such a city, it's really unnecessary and not something I buy into. Based on............? Paul wrote his letters to "The church in Ephesus...", "The church in Corinth...", "The church in Galatia..." and the like. John's seven letters to the churches in Asia were written to "The angel of the church in Epehsus...", "The church in Sardis...", "The church in Laodicea..." I think you get my point. The idea of churches being citywide is more than supported by the Biblical canon.quote:
Philippians 2:5-7:
2:5
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
2:7
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Would it the same attitude of Christ Jesus to seek to be an "apostle" with authority over numerous churches, and I take it the apostles crowd of the Third Wave view the very words out of their mouths with quite high regard? No, Christ did not seek equality with God because He already had it. He was infinitely humble as a man, but He did not lie abot Himself either. When asked if He was the Son of God, the Messiah (and by extension, God), He answered in the affirmative.
Christ would not have sought the title of Apostle. I think people who seek titles are very foolish and immature at best. However, the life validates the title. For example, a boxer's skill in the ring validates him being given the championship belt. What we need to remember is that the Prophets and Apostles usually took up their titles on their own. So while the practice of this in and of itself is not "wrong", the people who generally seek a title are the people who deserve it least. Heidi Baker does not refer to herself as an Apostle. Reinhard Bonke (to my knowledge) does not refer to himself as an Apostle. Now, I do hold the remarks of these two people in high regard because of their miraculous giftings in their ministries. However, that does not mean I check my brain at the door either. If they say something that sounds funny, I double check the scriptures they give. It's that easy.quote:
Again it's a dangerous path to place that kind of position on a person. People are prone to failure. As were the 13 Apostles of the New Testament. Paul and Barnabas came to such a disagreement of opinions that they actually had to go seperate ways in their ministries for a while to cool their tempers. Unless the 13 ceased to be men somewhere.quote:
I've googled up these apostle certifiers before and clicked through their sites. A person has to really be desiring to be recognized as an apostle to pay money for it.
If you are desiring a title to stick on your business card, then yes. If you have an apostolic ministry, the title just comes. But I thought we were arguing about something besides people who have a title that they might not have earned... I could be wrong, but whatever.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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