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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/24/2008 12:18:53 PM
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wintery
Posts: 897
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Amen, wintery. But the sheep only listen The The Voice of Jesus Christ for He is the Good Shepherd that leads them to green grasses (spiritual food) and still waters (peace). If a stranger comes, they run away.
The sheep need to check the Scriptures to see if it is a stranger. The sheep spend time learning the voice of the Shepherd. If they don't they can be duped.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/24/2008 2:58:36 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4738
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Amen, wintery. But the sheep only listen The The Voice of Jesus Christ for He is the Good Shepherd that leads them to green grasses (spiritual food) and still waters (peace). If a stranger comes, they run away.
The sheep need to check the Scriptures to see if it is a stranger. The sheep spend time learning the voice of the Shepherd. If they don't they can be duped.
Exactly - too many people rely on that passage to think they can never be deceived if they are born-again believers.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/24/2008 4:32:05 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1636
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
rlj, I'm not 100% sure where you're going here. Not being sure what you mean, I would say whoever took on the role bore the responsibility, however they handled it. Are you are saying it was not guys in backward collars or the other guys with funny hats? pastor/bishop/shepherd = overseer of a local church, right?
I just wondered what happend to the Pastor during the times I mentioned. Same as Evangelists, what of them?
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/24/2008 5:21:04 PM
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wintery
Posts: 897
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
rlj, I'm not 100% sure where you're going here. Not being sure what you mean, I would say whoever took on the role bore the responsibility, however they handled it. Are you are saying it was not guys in backward collars or the other guys with funny hats? pastor/bishop/shepherd = overseer of a local church, right?
I just wondered what happend to the Pastor during the times I mentioned. Same as Evangelists, what of them?
I don't know what you mean. Regardless, apostles were foundational.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/24/2008 6:00:08 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
Actually it says "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, " (ESV)
It's just a further description. The point there is still the foundation is established. We don't need an "Apostle Johnny" to go shine it up. The problem is that your argument now has two foundations for the church. You say that there can be no foundation except that which is already laid (meaning Christ) and that the church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. The point is that these premises are mutually exclusive.quote:
Since Mark is understood to be associated with Peter, and Luke with Paul, I don't see how you're implying that the foundation was laid by others? I'm saying that the four Gospels were not all penned by Apostles. Luke takes credit for his own work (as mentioned in Luke 1 and Acts 1), and it is only supposed that Mark learned his writings from Peter. I've heard several different theories about who Mark was and they all had convincing arguments.quote:
If you read about the deaths of the Apostles you will find some downtrodden peoples were pretty good with swords, arrows and skinning knives. Who knows where we'd all be if they hadn't rejected the Gospel? Reeeeeed herriiiiiiiiiiiing........................ The Apostles were fishermen, not scholars (excluding Paul). The hope of the second coming speaks the greatest comfort to the poor and oppressed because of Christ coming to bring justice. My point is that the Bible was written in common Greek (many scholars say that it was the common language of the everyday people) and not Aristocratic Greek. It is written specifically for the common people.quote:
No, but it goes to the motivations of those who would rule over the people. Not universally. That is a judgement call nobody is qualified to make. I have known several people who were in leadership in a church who were not specifically seeking to be in charge.quote:
I'm sure I'll be impressed when I meet some. The prophets I've heard leave me mostly unconvinced, while the one apostle I've heard about put me to sleep in my pew. Once again, this does not necessitate the idea that the Apostolic and Prophetic have stopped. All it means is that you have seen some fakers.quote:
Yeah in a city of two hundred, maybe. Hardly. Ephesus and Corinth were two of the biggest seaports in the ancient world. The point is that the Bible makes the argument that the congregations in a city count as "the church" in that city.quote:
Yeah since the 1940's they have. Who ordained Peter, Paul, John, James, or Matthew as Apostles? Isaiah had to make the claim that he was a prophet based on a "subjective prophetic experience", as did Jeremiah, Joel, and several other OT prophets.quote:
Bonke and Baker are apostles? I would believe that they are. That is my personal opinion, and I'm not crushed if I'm wrong... frankly, I really don't care about titles.quote:
I think the difference in what we're posting is that mostly you're presenting a conceptual arguement for the (modern) offices of apostle and prophet and I'm trying to point out how badly modern apostles and prophets turn out. So we aren't even having an argument. I'm trying to answer the topic raised by the OP... so why are you arguing with me, then? I agree, there are a lot of people bearing the title of Apostle like it's a merit badge that are completely off the road. However, that fact does not shake the biblical foundation of the Apostolic ministry.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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