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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/24/2008 8:31:30 PM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/24/2008 8:35:29 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1317
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
what are the responsibilities and expectations of an artist as they walk out their calling? what defines an artist? what does an artist do? I can't give all the responsibilities because I simply don't know them. But one main responsibility is to be honest about your work. Don't misrepresent it (purposefully or not) because you could easily lose your target audience in the semantics.
fair enough. are there personal responsibilities as well as public or social responsibilities? would personal responsibility be the responsibility of the artist to learn new skills as well as honing those they already possess, to receive teaching and criticism in order to explore new ideas or to work regardless of "inspiration"? could the social responsibility of the artist be about serving a community (or communities) with their skills rather than themselves?
I believe the responsibilities of a writer is to improve their writing each and every day. My personal goal is 1) To make the best product for my audience, 2) to write what Jesus tells me to write and not the religious elete, 3) I refuse to serve the community. Too fickle. What you have to do instead is have a target market, like I write for young adults and my genre is fantasy. My books revolve around teens, so adults might not like them. Someone else might want to write Christian Horror, or Christian fantasy. So there is no community, only a target market. If you work for the community, you won't please anyone, it's like shooting arrows into the sky, while hitting nothing. You'll basically waste your time.
AS for the inspiration part, that depends upon the inspiration. My inspiration can come from watching LOTR, to praying to a sci-fi show. But if you want to succeed in any art, you MUST know that art down to the narrow marrow. People think that slapping down a few words onto a piece of paper suddenly means they are the next great American writer. NOpe, sorry. It doesn't. You have to KNOW how to manipulate the words, how to create interesting characters, etc. It takes time. Does that help?>
kim
< Message edited by Dancre -- 3/24/2008 8:43:49 PM >
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/24/2008 9:37:44 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1395
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
I know that people can be harsh in their criticism. I have run into my share of that. I am not niave to say the least. The question I have to ask you is this. Who do you do it for? It is not up to us to please man. We must keep our focus on Christ! Then, and onlythen, can we accept the criticism of others.
You're right, Beck. I know toooo many writers who allow others to chain up their art for fear of the religious elite who look over their glasses and poo-poo anything that doesn't meet their does and don'ts. Someone once told me I should only write stories about Jesus. PHFFFTTT!!!  Give me a break!! I write what God tells me to write. I could care less if anyone agrees or disagrees. You don't like what I write, then do me a favor, don't read it.
Tech, I'm glad you explained yourself b/c I too thought this thread was just another jib to Kiss. She's gone through so much with everyone ripping apart her art. thanks for clarifying.
kim
Our God is an expansive God and the breadth of His interests is rich and full beyond measure. Those who would compartmentalize the Christian experience into sacred and secular miss out on a level of joy that those who see an expansive God enjoy immensely.
All one has to do is to walk through the National Museum of Art or attend the Messiah or any classical concert to realize that at some point Christians really understood this. A book, painting or composition doesn't have to 'be about Jesus' to be about Jesus in much wider terms. A perfect concerto speaks of God's greatness in that God created sound and created the rules that turns sound into music that tunes into the human spirit in positive ways.
Had not Handel been 'called' to compose in a general sense, the world would never had The Messiah in a specific sense.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/24/2008 9:51:25 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3537
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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If you make art, in whatever form, and proclaim it is christian, and it portrays very poor theology, then criticism from christians is going to come.
My church has an art department and they do excellent work. This could be an outlet for someone who is an artist and wants to express themselves in a christian manner.
I was an usher at the first church I attended and was at the later for prayer requests at the end of every service. One time a man and his wife presented the pastor with a painting...done very poorly and in bad theology. He accepted it graciously but both of them were uncomfortable...it was that obvious.
We have talents given to us by God and using them for God I guess could be called a calling. Ephesians 2:10 I think applies.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/24/2008 9:52:25 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1395
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
I believe the responsibilities of a writer is to improve their writing each and every day. My personal goal is 1) To make the best product for my audience, 2) to write what Jesus tells me to write and not the religious elete, 3) I refuse to serve the community. Too fickle. What you have to do instead is have a target market, like I write for young adults and my genre is fantasy. My books revolve around teens, so adults might not like them. Someone else might want to write Christian Horror, or Christian fantasy. So there is no community, only a target market. If you work for the community, you won't please anyone, it's like shooting arrows into the sky, while hitting nothing. You'll basically waste your time.
AS for the inspiration part, that depends upon the inspiration. My inspiration can come from watching LOTR, to praying to a sci-fi show. But if you want to succeed in any art, you MUST know that art down to the narrow marrow. People think that slapping down a few words onto a piece of paper suddenly means they are the next great American writer. NOpe, sorry. It doesn't. You have to KNOW how to manipulate the words, how to create interesting characters, etc. It takes time. Does that help?>
kim
Specialization is a must for a person to really master their craft. This is true of virtually every occupation. But, it's especially true in the world of art.
A person that brags that they can play a lot of different instruments will never really be the master of any one of them. There is having fun and expressing one's self doing art and quite another to be a true master artist. crafting words so that they convey imagery is different than writing an article for a trade magazine.
The topic of inspiration is fascinating. From my video game days, I had intimate contact with leaders in the toy industry. One of the reasons that they NEVER accept unsolicited ideas is that inexperienced people actually believe that they came up with a completely new idea on their own. In truth, their 'new' idea was derived from the wider social context. So, many, many people would submit the same 'original' toy idea at the same time and if they accepted any one of them there would be a huge legal battle. There is stimulus all around us from which 'new' creative ideas can be hatched.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/24/2008 9:57:19 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1317
Joined: 4/12/2005
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GASP!! You played video games?? Sinner!!! Just kidding. You're right again, Meeks.
kim
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/25/2008 8:51:57 PM
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growingseed
Posts: 346
Joined: 5/24/2005
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Artist have a wonderful talent, to be able to express God's love through Jesus guided by the Holy spirit, to be able to reveal in alittle way what having a relationship with Jesus is all about and really it doesn't matter what medium is used, when used by the Holy Spirit, the Lord will reveal to those the things that he whats us to have or learn. That's the beauty of having spiritual brothers and sisters, to share our experiences in some form or another. You have something to say, and since the Holy Spirit is telling you what to do, the out come can only be blessings to someone. Like someone said earlier just "one" is enough.
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/26/2008 11:36:23 AM
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techne
Posts: 545
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
quote:
they were annointed for the work (and these artists were the first people expressly identified as annointed for any task in the bible, btw).
You have said they were annointed, the bible didn't. Unless you equate "having the Spirit of God in you" with annointing. Annonting was always specific for the authrotity found in kings. Just being precise. 
i appreciate you wanting to be specific - i do too. however, annointing was also for priests (as well as prophets) i.e. leaders. further, objects were annointed as well. so being annointed wasn't just for kings. in any case, annointing was and is a sign of being set apart (or consecrated) for G-d's purposes and the work of the kingdom. certainly, a component of it was an indication (and approval) of [spiritual?] authority. in any case, bezalel and aholiab certainly exercised authority as they were overseeing the construction and design of the tabernacle - the dwelling place of G-d!
and yes, i always understood that being "filled with the spirit" - in the old testament context - was the same as the new testament idea of being annointed and therefore "filled with the spirit". essentially "the annointing" is the holy spirit, and "being filled with the spirit" is being annointed. actually, the phrase is the same, and it would seem to me that the event and activity is the same. the only difference being that sometimes in the old testament the annointing lifted after the purpose was accomplished (though not always). sometimes. it was a "shadow" (a hint, a foreshadowing, a promise, a "taster") of the things to come.
one of the commonplace interpretive or hermeneutical tools is "the law of first mention". in essence, the idea is that first time something is mentioned or pictured in the bible it sets the stage for further and future developments and applications. in effect, it is the seed for future flowerings of meaning - it is foundational or fundamental for understanding the idea. so naturally, i find it interesting that this is the first time the bible specifically mentions the annointing; and that the first time the scriptures speak of annointing it's artists who are annointed. not moses. not aaron. artists. it's curious.
the question (and encouragement) for me is: if artists were the first people annointed for a specific purpose in the bible, what does that mean for me as an artist (and a christian) - annointed by G-d and indwelt by the holy spirit all the time?
_____________________________
In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine
The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. — C.S. Lewis
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/26/2008 12:16:32 PM
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techne
Posts: 545
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
what are the responsibilities and expectations of an artist as they walk out their calling? what defines an artist? what does an artist do? I can't give all the responsibilities because I simply don't know them. But one main responsibility is to be honest about your work. Don't misrepresent it (purposefully or not) because you could easily lose your target audience in the semantics.
fair enough. are there personal responsibilities as well as public or social responsibilities? would personal responsibility be the responsibility of the artist to learn new skills as well as honing those they already possess, to receive teaching and criticism in order to explore new ideas or to work regardless of "inspiration"? could the social responsibility of the artist be about serving a community (or communities) with their skills rather than themselves?
I refuse to serve the community. Too fickle. What you have to do instead is have a target market, like I write for young adults and my genre is fantasy. My books revolve around teens, so adults might not like them. Someone else might want to write Christian Horror, or Christian fantasy. So there is no community, only a target market. If you work for the community, you won't please anyone, it's like shooting arrows into the sky, while hitting nothing. You'll basically waste your time.
i guess i see that target market as a community. "the community" is those you write for, or present your work to. i think some communities will receive your work better than others. i don't mean that they determine how and what you write -- never compromise the work but that there are people who you want to impact and engage with, and part of the responsibility of the artist is to figure out who you want to speak with and how best to do that.
perhaps audience would be a better term? in any case, there's a choice made by the artist (or agent, i guess - patron?) as to where and when they present (share?) their work.
_____________________________
In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine
The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. — C.S. Lewis
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/26/2008 12:22:43 PM
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techne
Posts: 545
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: growingseed
Artist have a wonderful talent, to be able to express God's love through Jesus guided by the Holy spirit, to be able to reveal in alittle way what having a relationship with Jesus is all about and really it doesn't matter what medium is used, when used by the Holy Spirit, the Lord will reveal to those the things that he whats us to have or learn. That's the beauty of having spiritual brothers and sisters, to share our experiences in some form or another. You have something to say, and since the Holy Spirit is telling you what to do, the out come can only be blessings to someone. Like someone said earlier just "one" is enough.
so is that what you see as the primary role of the [christian] artist? to "express God's love" and "to reveal in a little way what having a relationship with Jesus is all about"? art as an evangelistic tool? why or why not? just wondering.
_____________________________
In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine
The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. — C.S. Lewis
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/26/2008 4:53:54 PM
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growingseed
Posts: 346
Joined: 5/24/2005
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I think that what i think has been over ruled by what the Lord thinks through me. I've learned that we don't put lights under the bed. Since we are the tip of the sword (if you will) of the light, shouldn't we by new nature reveal what the Lord has done, is doing, and what he will do? I'm learning to communicate from darkness language to being able to communicate in my new nature. Shouldn't everything that we do point to the cross? one way or another? If Jesus is the only way, is there any other form that we can use to illustrate that? So, once we become lights isn't it our sum and substance of who we are in spirit, to pass that knowledge along to others.
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/26/2008 8:47:05 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1317
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
quote:
ORIGINAL: growingseed
Artist have a wonderful talent, to be able to express God's love through Jesus guided by the Holy spirit, to be able to reveal in alittle way what having a relationship with Jesus is all about and really it doesn't matter what medium is used, when used by the Holy Spirit, the Lord will reveal to those the things that he whats us to have or learn. That's the beauty of having spiritual brothers and sisters, to share our experiences in some form or another. You have something to say, and since the Holy Spirit is telling you what to do, the out come can only be blessings to someone. Like someone said earlier just "one" is enough.
so is that what you see as the primary role of the [christian] artist? to "express God's love" and "to reveal in a little way what having a relationship with Jesus is all about"? art as an evangelistic tool? why or why not? just wondering.
I agree with GS. I write only what God tells me to write. If He tells me to write a secular book, I do it b/c He has a plan. :) It's all about obedience and what God tells you to do.
kim
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/27/2008 8:07:06 AM
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Giulia
Posts: 1119
Joined: 9/29/2005
From: Giulia
Status: offline
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quote:
i find it interesting that this is the first time the bible specifically mentions the annointing; and that the first time the scriptures speak of annointing it's artists who are annointed. not moses. not aaron. artists. it's curious.
Not being contentious here, just specific. No I don't see the indwelling the same as an annointing. You are right, the annointing was also for priests, prophets and leaders. The annointing was for authority over the people.
Too often and too easily these days they talk of someone who can sing as being "annointed", this is not neccessarily so, just cause someone can sing don't mean they are annointed. That is a discipline and talent or gift in the worlds sense, not specifically or neccessarily an annointing from God.
quote:
in any case, bezalel and aholiab certainly exercised authority as they were overseeing the construction and design of the tabernacle - the dwelling place of G-d!
I see them more like the butcher the baker and candlestick maker. They were helpers and yes they had wisdom to do their work specifically, but they didn't have an annointing. The word gets used too easily these days, just ask the world when the first bit of gossip is posted on a mag it is called an annointing. That is what they call it, we are starting to believe along the same lines.
An annointing carries authority specifically over people and is not just carnal talent.
_____________________________
Captured by His love. Justified by His grace.
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/27/2008 9:51:35 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1395
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
quote:
i find it interesting that this is the first time the bible specifically mentions the annointing; and that the first time the scriptures speak of annointing it's artists who are annointed. not moses. not aaron. artists. it's curious.
Not being contentious here, just specific. No I don't see the indwelling the same as an annointing. You are right, the annointing was also for priests, prophets and leaders. The annointing was for authority over the people.
Too often and too easily these days they talk of someone who can sing as being "annointed", this is not neccessarily so, just cause someone can sing don't mean they are annointed. That is a discipline and talent or gift in the worlds sense, not specifically or neccessarily an annointing from God.
quote:
in any case, bezalel and aholiab certainly exercised authority as they were overseeing the construction and design of the tabernacle - the dwelling place of G-d!
I see them more like the butcher the baker and candlestick maker. They were helpers and yes they had wisdom to do their work specifically, but they didn't have an annointing. The word gets used too easily these days, just ask the world when the first bit of gossip is posted on a mag it is called an annointing. That is what they call it, we are starting to believe along the same lines.
An annointing carries authority specifically over people and is not just carnal talent.
A 'CALL" is not an 'ANNOINTING'. And, you are absolutely right. "Annointing" is totally misused and definitely overused in some circles.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/27/2008 11:30:28 AM
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techne
Posts: 545
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
quote:
i find it interesting that this is the first time the bible specifically mentions the annointing; and that the first time the scriptures speak of annointing it's artists who are annointed. not moses. not aaron. artists. it's curious.
Not being contentious here, just specific. No I don't see the indwelling the same as an annointing. You are right, the annointing was also for priests, prophets and leaders. The annointing was for authority over the people.
Too often and too easily these days they talk of someone who can sing as being "annointed", this is not neccessarily so, just cause someone can sing don't mean they are annointed. That is a discipline and talent or gift in the worlds sense, not specifically or neccessarily an annointing from God.
quote:
in any case, bezalel and aholiab certainly exercised authority as they were overseeing the construction and design of the tabernacle - the dwelling place of G-d!
I see them more like the butcher the baker and candlestick maker. They were helpers and yes they had wisdom to do their work specifically, but they didn't have an annointing. The word gets used too easily these days, just ask the world when the first bit of gossip is posted on a mag it is called an annointing. That is what they call it, we are starting to believe along the same lines.
An annointing carries authority specifically over people and is not just carnal talent.
of course - annointing and talent are different things. someone can be talented and move us emotionally and it is simply carnal, natural, soulish, human. and there's nothing inherently wrong with that - it's just not spirit. annointing and calling are also different - though it would be pretty difficult to be called to something and not be annointed (empowered by the holy spirit) to do it. i'm not saying that everything an artist (again, in any medium) does is annointed.
i do think that, since we are all filled with the spirit and therefore carry an annointing (a la 1 john 2), an artist can create work that is annointed. i still think that the context of the exodus passage indicates that G-d annointed them for that project (if nothing else). i think that the work and presence of the holy spirit in the old testament is identified by such phrases as "filled with the spirit" and "the spirit came/ fell upon him" and were temporary until such time as the holy spirit was sent to us by christ. it's the same phrase - for a reason.
but perhaps we need to define what we mean by "annointed"? perhaps the issue is that when we say something (or someone) is "annointed", we are usually referring to an effect of their actions - we are judging whether they or it are "annointed" because of what happens in response. but the fruit of that annointing is deeper and perhaps more mysterious. i always wonder about the brazen serpent. it was obviously well-crafted (and i'm assuming it would have been the israelite artists/ artisans who would have made it) and somehow, when people looked at it, G-d used it to heal people. that would seem to be an annointed object. would the artists have been "annointed" while making it? perhaps we need to have a thread exploring what the annointing is and how it functions?
_____________________________
In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine
The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. — C.S. Lewis
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/27/2008 11:55:28 AM
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techne
Posts: 545
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: growingseed
I think that what i think has been over ruled by what the Lord thinks through me.
i'm not sure about this...could you clarify? i don't think that the lord thinks through us. i think the holy spirit can (and will) teach us and guide us, but we still have to choose to align ourselves with him, and obey. i think we are co-workers, which implies we have some measure of choice in the matter. of course, bear in mind that we are to have the mind of christ and a kingdom mindset. we are to be conformed to his will and grow in the knowledge and understanding of christ and his kingdom and the heart of G-d. and there might be times when it is clear that there is a specific project we need to do (and we need to do it using our skills - both practical and cerebral). but the rest of the time, are we not able to create work from our position in and knowledge of christ and his kingdom and his heart?
quote:
ORIGINAL: growingseed
I've learned that we don't put lights under the bed. Since we are the tip of the sword (if you will) of the light, shouldn't we by new nature reveal what the Lord has done, is doing, and what he will do? I'm learning to communicate from darkness language to being able to communicate in my new nature.
is that more about content than form? we still have to use the same language (maybe not specific words, but generally - in my case - i still need to use english). even as an artist, i still need to use the available visual or literary or textual or kinetic or musical vocabulary. that's one of the things i love about paul -- he constantly takes phrases and ideas (through the inspiration of the holy spirit) and shifts them so they take on kingdom meanings and interpretations. he redeems actions and ideas and uses them to express spiritual truths. he doesn't create a new language. and i think that's what we are meant to do - that's why the renewing of our minds is so crucial.
quote:
ORIGINAL: growingseed
Shouldn't everything that we do point to the cross? one way or another? If Jesus is the only way, is there any other form that we can use to illustrate that? So, once we become lights isn't it our sum and substance of who we are in spirit, to pass that knowledge along to others.
i'd be interested if you could speak about what this means for the artist. how does one point to the cross "one way or another"? my initial thoughts are that we don't have to put the entire gospel, or even the high points of the gospel (or biblical narrative), into each artwork (in any medium). i think it's perfectly acceptable to paint flowers. and you don't need to attach a scripture to the painting to justify it. how are you supposed to "point to the cross" with a flower painting? unless you think that flower paintings are not an appropriate subject for the christian artist...
i think there is also a substantial difference in how words function and how art functions. i'm not sure that art can actually do what you're suggesting here. that's why i think that the human, social aspect of the art process is important. be involved with people, communicate clearly, serve. that is what will ultimately enable you to point to jesus. i'm not sure that's actually art's job. we make disciples. i think art's job is to raise questions or encourage thought, and sometimes even to stir emotions (though ultimately that emotional response will connect to an idea). it's not to explain - that's why we have words.
_____________________________
In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine
The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. — C.S. Lewis
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/27/2008 1:04:04 PM
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techne
Posts: 545
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
A 'CALL" is not an 'ANNOINTING'. And, you are absolutely right. "Annointing" is totally misused and definitely overused in some circles.
fair enough. and i agree - "annointing" is often misused. we often mistake emotional soulish responses for the holy spirit working, or we privilege annointing/ talent over character.
that being said, this thread is about the calling of the artist (though it would be hard to fulfill any calling without being annointed at some point)...
_____________________________
In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine
The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. — C.S. Lewis
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/27/2008 5:22:32 PM
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growingseed
Posts: 346
Joined: 5/24/2005
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Let me think, the Bible is a book based upon one thing that no other book in the history of man has ever been written, and that is that it is based upon prophecy. Prophecy, history written in advance. All the authors of the Bible were under the influence of the Holy Spirit, so in a way the Lord was writing through them. I believe that most people or higher percentage of people who read here are learning to be obedient, that given in our salvation. Of course by yielding ourselves, the Holy Spirit will work through us, however way you look at it, it's still a higher form of experience that sometimes we can't explain. I'm learning the difference between how i want things and how the Lord wants things.
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RE: the calling of an artist... - 3/27/2008 7:36:41 PM
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what i do love about this thought is that an artist, like any christian, is a co-worker with christ in the world...that's exciting!