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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/2/2008 12:36:19 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3368
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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I know plenty of people who have no faith and are happy as larks. Why? Because there are no more rules. They live according to what feels good. If something doesn't feel good, they do something else. If they aren't happy doing something, they stop doing it and do something else. It's simple selfish hedonism, no more, no less.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/2/2008 10:40:23 PM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129
The Old Testament institutes these rituals as an act of worship, like communion and baptism. OT Sacrifice did not 'cause' atonement. Faith saves, always has.
Faith is one side of the coin, but the act itself is the other side. Both are necessary. If God deemed slaughter/murder unnecessary for atonement then He wouldn't have commanded His people to commit it.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/3/2008 12:53:53 AM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, I am not saying that; I am saying that rejecting what God says is true so as to be psychologically and intellectually comfortable, is every bit as wrong as rejecting God because one wanted sexual satisfaction or material wealth. It is trusting in one's estimation of what is good and right over God's estimation of what is good and right, in short, placing faith in one's own ability to make such discernments.
People don't choose their faiths. I didn't choose to reject "A" to feel "B." I didn't say to myself "I must reject what God says to be true to feel okay." Losing one's faith is like saying, in effect, "*Oh*. This isn't true. Wow. Okay." I won't try to lie to myself and convince myself that I believe something different, which is what it would come down to. When I lost my faith, calling something "God's word" (and, by association, what you call God's estimation of what is good and right) was meaningless to me. It carried no significance for me, as perhaps the Koran carries no significance for you. So, I wasn't "rejecting" it so much as accepting it as just another belief that some other people hold to be true.
People can't voluntarily change their beliefs, but they can choose to live contrary to those beliefs by seeking sexual satisfaction or material wealth (if that's what those beliefs deem wrong). This, I suppose, would be considered rejecting God because God is still real to those people. I don't think this would be truly fulfilling and I expect most of those people would eventually choose to live in harmony with their beliefs rather than contrary to them.
Anyway, I read your post as meaning that people choose different reasons for the same action. I'm trying to explain that they are two different actions, one involuntary (losing faith) and the other voluntary (rejecting/revolting against one's faith).
quote:
ORIGINAL: besshi
If something seemed ridiculous, morally appalling, and you had no faith in it, would you still follow it? Wouldn't that just be empty religion?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Not more ridiculous than saying something was 'morally appalling' while rejecting a basis for measuring morality, which one does when one rejects God.
I rejected a basis for measuring morality, not all of them.
quote:
Original: Jhud
And not more ridiculous than placing one's faith in a seven pound brain that by atheist estimates is an accidental occurence, over the consistent and hsitorically demonstrated revelation of God.
I don't know a lot about history, but I do know that other cultures around the world were around before, during, and after the "global flood." This isn't just about the flood, I'm just saying that Biblical history and global history are not always harmonious....but that's another topic.
P.S. to TMeeks, I hope to respond to your post tomorrow. Jhud's post was shorter, and I'm really too tired to even try to respond adequately to your post.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/3/2008 12:39:22 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6817
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
People don't choose their faiths. I didn't choose to reject "A" to feel "B." I didn't say to myself "I must reject what God says to be true to feel okay." Losing one's faith is like saying, in effect, "*Oh*. This isn't true. Wow. Okay." I won't try to lie to myself and convince myself that I believe something different, which is what it would come down to. When I lost my faith, calling something "God's word" (and, by association, what you call God's estimation of what is good and right) was meaningless to me. It carried no significance for me, as perhaps the Koran carries no significance for you. So, I wasn't "rejecting" it so much as accepting it as just another belief that some other people hold to be true.
People can't voluntarily change their beliefs, but they can choose to live contrary to those beliefs by seeking sexual satisfaction or material wealth (if that's what those beliefs deem wrong). This, I suppose, would be considered rejecting God because God is still real to those people. I don't think this would be truly fulfilling and I expect most of those people would eventually choose to live in harmony with their beliefs rather than contrary to them.
Anyway, I read your post as meaning that people choose different reasons for the same action. I'm trying to explain that they are two different actions, one involuntary (losing faith) and the other voluntary (rejecting/revolting against one's faith).
Your post is a bit confusing. On one hand you talk about ‘accepting’ and ‘rejecting’ and ‘choosing’ to live a certain way, while saying simultaneously that you didn’t choose to reject anything, or voluntarily change beliefs and that people choose to live at harmony with their beliefs. Which they don’t choose. But can accept. I am not sure you are so clear on what you have done or not done.
Either way, your initial premise included the fact that you didn’t care for the killing of certain people groups and the penalties for sins in the OT; while this may be to difficult for some to except, it really doesn’t have anything to do with the truth of the Bible (that is it’s accurate representation of reality)
quote:
I rejected a basis for measuring morality, not all of them.
What is your current basis for morality?
quote:
I don't know a lot about history, but I do know that other cultures around the world were around before, during, and after the "global flood." This isn't just about the flood, I'm just saying that Biblical history and global history are not always harmonious....but that's another topic.
I think that while there might be aspects of the Bible for ehich have yet to discover definitive historical support, invariably as discoveries are made they provide increasing evidence that the Bible is an accurate record of history with respect to the events it chronicles.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 4/3/2008 1:47:59 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/4/2008 1:46:14 AM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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Hi TMeeks, I appreciate your patience. This thread is interesting, and although I don't have much free time for discussion I am enjoying the exchange that I'm having with the forum members. So, without further ado... 
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
This is called 'Progressive Revelation'. Those from Adam to Moses didn't have any 'official text'. So, they had only what had been revealed in the covenants. God, through Moses, revealed more as it related to a specific tribe... the Isrealites. Later the Psalm, Proverbs and Prophetic books added ever more revelation about the person an purpose of God. What people fail to understand is that the books of Moses were specifically written to begin the process of setting up a nation that was a theocracy dedicated to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Everything written was to ensure, or try to ensure, the purity of the nation and set it apart from all other nations. But, it was all a part of the plan of God to reveal himself progressively, culminating in the New Testament.
I understand that you view it as God revealing Himself progressively, but to me it simply seems like the evolution of a religion. As I see it, as the needs and views of people changed, the religion changed as well. The change was usually not very abrupt or drastic (although the change over from Judaism to Christianity was almost certainly the most drastic change), but over time it did (imo) evolve with the culture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: besshi
I've explored that interpretion of reality. I took it into account. I mean, I LIVED that reality for a good 15 years. Of course one can't prove God exists. One CAN'T prove a negative. As for the relevence of fulfillment, that's what this thread is about. Many christians think that one can only lead a fulfilling life if they have God in it. Since a non-christian with a fulfilling life doesn't jive with that assumption, christians often redefine what fulfillment must mean to a non-christian-- a life of sensual, yet empty, indulgements (the "high life"). I replied to show that that's not the case for me and many people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I think we have really made a huge mistake in doing so. The reason we should become believers is simply that God DOES exist and He is worthy to be praised. It really doesn't matter if our lives are fulfilling or not. God is still God. We will be seeing many, many more people becoming discouraged about their faith because we have lied to them about the end product of faith. If they don't get a better job or don't get rich, then somehow they believe tht God has failed them. Hogwash. The only way God could fail us is if the resurrection of Jesus Christ was false. And, there is FAR more evidence that it is true and no evidence that has ever been brought foward to disprove it.
I left my quote in to reiterate the point that I made in it. I said that when christians encounter a non/ex christian who claims to lead a fulfilling life, christains redefine fulfillment as experiencing shallow gain, such as money or sexual gratifcation. They do this, perhaps, in order to reconcile an encounter with a nonchristian who claims to have a fulfilling life with their christian idea of what non/ex christian life is like.
After I explained that christians often make a mistake of thinking that non/ex christians believe fulfillment comes from wealth or other things unrelated to fulfillment, you wrote that people feel that God has failed them when they don't get a better job or don't get rich.
Beliefs are unrelated to material gain. People have faith in something because that something is truth to them. That's all there is to it.
quote:
I'm afraid that you have completely missed the impact of DNA on our moral compass. Every single thing you say in this regard is complete conjecture. Dismissing the quest for God as induced by fear of the unknown is totally unsupportable. I, and many others, aren't the types of people that fall for fairy tales. We need objective evidence on which to place our beliefs. And, we aren't knee-jerk about issues involving science. I have had great dialogs with people like Francis Collins, a christian and evolutionist that lead the Human Genome Project. I am not shy about expressing the theological difficulties of his position. But, he is also not shy about ackowledging the same thing. What we are BOTH after is the TRUTH however it shakes out. That is NOT religion out of fear. It is faith out of fact and observation and modeling. By modeling I mean playing your scenario and playing out my scenario and testing the realities and outcomes. For me, mine wins, hands down. Jesus DID rise again. And, he WILL come again. Everything else flows from there.
I haven't "missed" anything. We just have different perspectives. Perhaps people created gods (in part) as survival instinct, as a response to fear of the unknown. It fits with the way people think, and the way people respond to fear or uncertainty. I didn't mean to imply that that was all there was too it. I didn't mean to imply that christians don't seek truth or that they are gullible. I acknowledge that you may openly and determinedly seek the truth. I will say that your beliefs are the pair of glasses through which you see all information. The same goes for me! Our different perspectives have a strong influence on how we interpret information. Discussion like this sometimes leads us to want to "win an argument," but my goal isn't to win you over; it's to express my view as a person who actually lost their faith.
I'll most likely not be around the computer this weekend, so I'll probably be around on Monday. Happy weekend, everyone
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/5/2008 1:18:22 AM
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meymey
Posts: 36
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
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thank you Tricia l read some posts and some of them were directed to me those people assumed it was me. the post is not about me and if l really wanted to know which l do WHY would l be ashamed to addres this as me (if it was me l would not be ashamed because l would be searching for answers which means l would care where all these things came from)
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/5/2008 6:15:37 AM
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Gazingstock
Posts: 166
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Check out this Psalm (emphasis mine):
1Surely God is good to Israel,
to those who are pure in heart.
2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;
I had nearly lost my foothold.
3 For I envied the arrogant
when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 They have no struggles;
their bodies are healthy and strong.
5 They are free from the burdens common to man;
they are not plagued by human ills.
6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
they clothe themselves with violence.
7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity;
the evil conceits of their minds know no limits.
8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
in their arrogance they threaten oppression.
9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.
10 Therefore their people turn to them
and drink up waters in abundance.
11 They say, "How can God know?
Does the Most High have knowledge?"
12 This is what the wicked are like—
always carefree, they increase in wealth.
13 Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure;
in vain have I washed my hands in innocence.
14 All day long I have been plagued;
I have been punished every morning.
15 If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
I would have betrayed your children.
Sounds kinda like what you're talking about, doesn't it? Reject God and prosper! How can this be? Well, read on:
16 When I tried to understand all this,
it was oppressive to me
17 till I entered the sanctuary of God;
then I understood their final destiny.
18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;
you cast them down to ruin.
19 How suddenly are they destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors!
20 As a dream when one awakes,
so when you arise, O Lord,
you will despise them as fantasies.
21 When my heart was grieved
and my spirit embittered,
22 I was senseless and ignorant;
I was a brute beast before you.
23 Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
24 You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever.
27 Those who are far from you will perish;
you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.
28 But as for me, it is good to be near God.
I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge;
I will tell of all your deeds.
See, just because someone rejects God and prospers here on earth doesn't mean squat. One must take an eternal perspective. One second after we die, the ONLY things that matter are if we knew Jesus and what we did for Him. One's destiny in eternity is a LOT more important than a job, a significant other, riches, influence, happiness, or whatever else we want here on earth.
Perfectly stated.
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/5/2008 7:43:29 AM
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GeorgiaNerd
Posts: 244
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: UGA... GO DAWGS!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, I am not saying that; I am saying that rejecting what God says is true so as to be psychologically and intellectually comfortable, is every bit as wrong as rejecting God because one wanted sexual satisfaction or material wealth. It is trusting in one's estimation of what is good and right over God's estimation of what is good and right, in short, placing faith in one's own ability to make such discernments.
Jhud (or other Christians): Can you please explain this statement to me? It seems like you are saying that intellect, discernment, and critical thinking skill are wrong. I'm pretty sure that isn't what you mean because you are an intellectual guy and are gifted in scientific reasoning (although I don't agree with you conclusions). I just wanted to make sure that you aren't propagating the myth that Christians are less capable of making judgments based on critical thinking, because I know that you make such judgments every day. Science that involves deities in the interpretation of results isn't good science. Or are you talking about morality here? Christians also make moral judgments based on critical thinking every day as well because the cultural construct of today places many issues on the table that weren't there in Biblical times, so what is so wrong about making discernments?
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/5/2008 10:12:49 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3423
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
Status: offline
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quote:
Original: RedcoatMello
Jhud (or other Christians): Can you please explain this statement to me?
Redcoat, I'll let Jhud answer for him self, but here is what his post says to me.
quote:
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It doesn't matter why you reject God. The results are the same.
quote:
so what is so wrong about making discernments?
This question is also answered in the above scripture. We are to discern, but with the help of the Holy Spirit. If He's not guiding us, we're relying on weak, fallible man and we can be deceived.
quote:
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
< Message edited by sparkleingsnow -- 4/5/2008 10:27:15 AM >
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/7/2008 12:03:40 PM
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perfectWeakness129
Posts: 49
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedcoatMello
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, I am not saying that; I am saying that rejecting what God says is true so as to be psychologically and intellectually comfortable, is every bit as wrong as rejecting God because one wanted sexual satisfaction or material wealth. It is trusting in one's estimation of what is good and right over God's estimation of what is good and right, in short, placing faith in one's own ability to make such discernments.
Jhud (or other Christians): Can you please explain this statement to me? It seems like you are saying that intellect, discernment, and critical thinking skill are wrong. I'm pretty sure that isn't what you mean because you are an intellectual guy and are gifted in scientific reasoning (although I don't agree with you conclusions). I just wanted to make sure that you aren't propagating the myth that Christians are less capable of making judgments based on critical thinking, because I know that you make such judgments every day. Science that involves deities in the interpretation of results isn't good science. Or are you talking about morality here? Christians also make moral judgments based on critical thinking every day as well because the cultural construct of today places many issues on the table that weren't there in Biblical times, so what is so wrong about making discernments?
Sorry for the long post. Hope you are able to skim through it all>>
What he is saying is that we cannot make truth anything other than truth just because it does not fit our cultural, social, intellectual or political worldview. If truth is absolute, which Christians believe it is, then that truth cannot change because of our philosophy (our understanding of that truth will.) If I say that Christ is real and God and alive and all that, and you say he must be dead because for someone to live 2000 years is ridiculous, one of us must be wrong. Jesus cannot be both God and a decayed skeleton. While our understanding of that truth is obviously different and relative to our individual worldviews, the absolute truth that would be true if neither of us existed to have an opinion MUST be one or the other.
It just so happens that I can logically and reasonably believe the absolute truth of the Word of God, but even if I couldn't, it would still be true. That is what is meant when he says that rejecting what God says is true so as to be psychologically and intellectually comfortable, he means that one rejects what God says to suit their worldview, rather than conforming the worldview to what God has said in the first place.
The long and short is that God is not on trial. The Word of God has stood solid and independent of man's opinion or judgment for nearly 4000 years. Atheism in its modern sense is a infinitesimal 300 years old. The problem is we exist today in a predominant worldview that says that newer is better; therefore it is reasonable to believe that Atheism though younger in age and credibility, is a better alternative to Theism which is primitive and barbaric.
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/8/2008 12:13:27 AM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Your post is a bit confusing. On one hand you talk about ‘accepting’ and ‘rejecting’ and ‘choosing’ to live a certain way, while saying simultaneously that you didn’t choose to reject anything, or voluntarily change beliefs and that people choose to live at harmony with their beliefs. Which they don’t choose. But can accept. I am not sure you are so clear on what you have done or not done.
Either way, your initial premise included the fact that you didn’t care for the killing of certain people groups and the penalties for sins in the OT; while this may be to difficult for some to except, it really doesn’t have anything to do with the truth of the Bible (that is it’s accurate representation of reality)
It may seem a little confusing. Seeing the worldview of someone else isn't always easy or simple.
Worldview of Christians
For some people, God is real. All information is interpreted through a Biblical, God-centered lens. The reality of God is not a question; it’s a given. It is in fact the ultimate reality and ultimate authority of reality, and all thoughts or ideas that the individual may create are subject to it. All information is interpreted from a Biblical perspective.
If something within or about the Bible or God seems contradictory, the person defaults to the belief that God is real and that the folly is on fallible people, not God or the Bible.
All information is interpreted as supporting the Bible and a Biblical worldview. Again, all contradictory or conflicting statements are considered either a mystery of God or misunderstood by the reader.
Living Harmoniously with a Christian Worldview
As stated, those with a Christian worldview believe that God is real, the Bible is correct, and God expects Christians to behave certain ways. If a person strives to behave and live as a Christian should, he or she is living harmoniously with their beliefs. To them, God is real and that individual is striving to live as God intended.
Living Discordantly with a Christian Worldview
As stated, those with a Christian worldview believe that God is real, the Bible is correct, and God expects Christians to behave certain ways. When a person with a Christian worldview behaves in a way that is discordant with the way a Christian should behave, that person is revolting against the God that he/she believes is real. This is, I feel, the most relevant expression of the term “rejecting God” to this discussion.
The Term “Rejecting God”
A rejection of God could mean two things. In the paragraph above, this is a personal rejection of God. The person believes God is real yet chooses to live against God. God is real, yet the person lives according to his or her own rules. He/she is rejecting “God” and choosing “Self.”
Another meaning of “rejecting God” is not personal. It is the rejection of a concept or idea. This impersonal rejection of the concept of God is only possible if the person does not believe God is real. “Person A” rejects the notion that God exists, but “Person A” may accept or understand that others believe that God is real.
Worldview of Non-Christians
For some people, God is not real. These people also live in harmony or discordance with what is real to them, but that reality is not Biblically based. All information is interpreted through their world views, which vary from person to person.
Changing from a Christian to an Ex-Christian
Experiences vary from person to person, so I’ll just talk about my own. I used to have the worldview of a Christian and all that entailed. My mind could not be changed and everything was interpreted through a Biblical/Christian lens. However, at one point I became curious about my faith in a new way. I wanted to try hard to be as objective as I could about the information I viewed about Christianity. At this time, I was in a questioning phase, about as neutral as I could be. For most of the time during this phase, I did still believe in God, but I was open to any result that my questioning would eventually lead to. Basically, I was on a search for truth. When I tried to be open and honest about the information I came across, I began to confront the conflicts and contradictions in Christianity. As I read, the Bible increasingly seemed like it was written by people. It started to seem less divine. Feeling my faith fade, I prayed and called on God to heal my faith. My faith, however, was not restored. Eventually, I came to the realization that God isn’t real. It’s important to note that it wasn’t necessarily the information itself that caused my change to an ex-Christian. After all, information is interpreted according to what a person thinks is real. The catalyst to my change was my loss of faith.
To a degree, my deconversion had an intellectual basis, but what really changed everything for me was that revelation, that change in perspective. When I became an ex-Christian I didn’t have any faith because I just didn’t have any faith.
quote:
What is your current basis for morality?
That's a pretty complex question, but for simplicity's sake I'll say that the Golden Rule is applicable to most situations. I try my best to create an outcome suitable to everyone. Sometimes I miss the mark, but I'm only human. As I see it, that's all we CAN be.
quote:
I think that while there might be aspects of the Bible for ehich have yet to discover definitive historical support, invariably as discoveries are made they provide increasing evidence that the Bible is an accurate record of history with respect to the events it chronicles.
Of course...people often tend to interpret information as evidence for thier worldviews. That's what I wrote. You might want to read about discoveries that provide evidence that is contradictory to the Biblical account of history. It may at least give you an insight into a different perspective.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/8/2008 10:21:12 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3423
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
Status: offline
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Then besshi with all that being said. What is the point of life?
Where is the meaning of life? Are we just a flickering light, here for a moment, then gone? All that we strive for all our lifes gone at the moment of our deaths?
How very sad. Live with hope. Meaningless to the 10th degree!
I don't think you fully believe that. If you did, you wouldn't be here talking with believers. I think deep down you and others on this thread are hoping someone will say something that will touch a cord in your hearts. Something that will give you a flicker of hope. That the Lord will speak through someone, just the right words to help you get back some of your faith.
Dear Father, I lift up besshi and all those who have expressed a loss of faith on this threat. Father, give them a flicker of hope. Reveal Yourself to them Lord. Renew they faith in You, and remove all doubt. You are the Lord God Almighty, and we praise Your name. Asking this in the name of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and Your will. Amen
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/8/2008 2:07:48 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 176
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meymey
but why is it that when they decided to not follow Jesus get those good things
Hi meymey
I don't know. But I do know that I can't look at my earthly circumstances to determine whether or how much God loves me at any given moment. Whether I have little or much, whether I'm sick or enjoying perfect health, whether I have a job or i'm standing in the umemployment line, none of these things prove God's love for me one way or another. If I ever have a doubt as to God's love for me (and there have been times in my life where I have) I need only to look to Calvary. Because it was there that God proved His love for me. If there isn't one thing in my life that I can look at and thank God for today, I can at least thank Him for sending His Son to die for me. I can thank the Lord that I'm saved, that all my sins are forgiven, and that if I were to die today that Heaven would be my home. As the song says.....
I'd rather have Jesus than silver and gold,
I'd rather be his than have riches untold;
I'd rather have Jesus than houses or lands,
I'd rather be led by His nail-pierced hand
Than to be the King of a vast domain
Or be held in sin's dread sway:
I'd rather have Jesus than anything
this world affords today.
rileykins
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/8/2008 10:57:33 PM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sparkleingsnow
Then besshi with all that being said. What is the point of life?
Where is the meaning of life? Are we just a flickering light, here for a moment, then gone? All that we strive for all our lifes gone at the moment of our deaths?
How very sad. Live with hope. Meaningless to the 10th degree!
I don't think you fully believe that. If you did, you wouldn't be here talking with believers. I think deep down you and others on this thread are hoping someone will say something that will touch a cord in your hearts. Something that will give you a flicker of hope. That the Lord will speak through someone, just the right words to help you get back some of your faith.
Dear Father, I lift up besshi and all those who have expressed a loss of faith on this threat. Father, give them a flicker of hope. Reveal Yourself to them Lord. Renew they faith in You, and remove all doubt. You are the Lord God Almighty, and we praise Your name. Asking this in the name of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and Your will. Amen
To me, the point of life is living. It's loving your family and having special times with them. It's growing as a person. It's exploring new ideas. It's holding a loved one's hand. It's enjoying that first bite of ice cream. It's stepping on a crunchy leaf. It's experiencing the whole spectrum of human emotion. It's overcoming challenges. It's finding hope and meaning in difficult times. It's loving people and the world. It's adventure, mistakes, reflection. That's what life means to me. Death may be the end, but it doesn't negate the meaningful experiences of life. I don't know what that means to you, but I love it!
As for the second part of your post, I'm not really sure what to say. I'm not hopeless. So I don't really have a need for a "flicker of hope." To be blunt, reading the christianity.com forums is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine. I'm interested in culture wars, and some of the views on here are quite extreme. It can be very amusing at times. Also, I like to view my former faith from "the other side." It reaffirms my disbelief to read threads concerning christianity. Lastly, I like the members. They're pretty good people most of the time and I like the community. Usually, people here are considerate and thoughtful in what they write, and those are very rare traits on the internet. I like you guys
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/9/2008 10:43:44 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3423
Joined: 1/9/2007
From: Payson, Arizona
Status: offline
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I like you too besshi, and I agree, it is a good group here.
Because I do care about you, my hope and prayer for you and the other ex-believers here is that your faith will be restored.
God Bless you, besshi, and thank you for responding to my post.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/9/2008 11:11:32 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6817
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
It may seem a little confusing. Seeing the worldview of someone else isn't always easy or simple.
Worldview of Christians
For some people, God is real. All information is interpreted through a Biblical, God-centered lens. The reality of God is not a question; it’s a given. It is in fact the ultimate reality and ultimate authority of reality, and all thoughts or ideas that the individual may create are subject to it. All information is interpreted from a Biblical perspective.
If something within or about the Bible or God seems contradictory, the person defaults to the belief that God is real and that the folly is on fallible people, not God or the Bible.
All information is interpreted as supporting the Bible and a Biblical worldview. Again, all contradictory or conflicting statements are considered either a mystery of God or misunderstood by the reader.
Living Harmoniously with a Christian Worldview
As stated, those with a Christian worldview believe that God is real, the Bible is correct, and God expects Christians to behave certain ways. If a person strives to behave and live as a Christian should, he or she is living harmoniously with their beliefs. To them, God is real and that individual is striving to live as God intended.
Living Discordantly with a Christian Worldview
As stated, those with a Christian worldview believe that God is real, the Bible is correct, and God expects Christians to behave certain ways. When a person with a Christian worldview behaves in a way that is discordant with the way a Christian should behave, that person is revolting against the God that he/she believes is real. This is, I feel, the most relevant expression of the term “rejecting God” to this discussion.
The Term “Rejecting God”
A rejection of God could mean two things. In the paragraph above, this is a personal rejection of God. The person believes God is real yet chooses to live against God. God is real, yet the person lives according to his or her own rules. He/she is rejecting “God” and choosing “Self.”
Another meaning of “rejecting God” is not personal. It is the rejection of a concept or idea. This impersonal rejection of the concept of God is only possible if the person does not believe God is real. “Person A” rejects the notion that God exists, but “Person A” may accept or understand that others believe that God is real.
Worldview of Non-Christians
For some people, God is not real. These people also live in harmony or discordance with what is real to them, but that reality is not Biblically based. All information is interpreted through their world views, which vary from person to person.
Changing from a Christian to an Ex-Christian
Experiences vary from person to person, so I’ll just talk about my own. I used to have the worldview of a Christian and all that entailed. My mind could not be changed and everything was interpreted through a Biblical/Christian lens. However, at one point I became curious about my faith in a new way. I wanted to try hard to be as objective as I could about the information I viewed about Christianity. At this time, I was in a questioning phase, about as neutral as I could be. For most of the time during this phase, I did still believe in God, but I was open to any result that my questioning would eventually lead to. Basically, I was on a search for truth. When I tried to be open and honest about the information I came across, I began to confront the conflicts and contradictions in Christianity. As I read, the Bible increasingly seemed like it was written by people. It started to seem less divine. Feeling my faith fade, I prayed and called on God to heal my faith. My faith, however, was not restored. Eventually, I came to the realization that God isn’t real. It’s important to note that it wasn’t necessarily the information itself that caused my change to an ex-Christian. After all, information is interpreted according to what a person thinks is real. The catalyst to my change was my loss of faith.
To a degree, my deconversion had an intellectual basis, but what really changed everything for me was that revelation, that change in perspective. When I became an ex-Christian I didn’t have any faith because I just didn’t have any faith.
Thanks for the breakdown. One thing I want to make clear before I respond is that I think I started from a different viewpoint than you did. I was an agnostic before I was a Christian, a skeptic who was very influenced by reason and science. So I have in a sense already been where you are; much as you feel that you ‘explored’ Christianity objectively, I did the same as an agnostic, except I was equally willing to view a godless life through the same lens; in the end I found it to be empty and meaningless (indeed, in a sense I see now that it really couldn’t be otherwise by definition – any ‘meaning’ we derive for ourselves apart from an external and eternal reality is by definition imaginary).
In turn, I experienced Christ – and objectively, that experience was as real as anything else that I might have understood or experienced. And I know, that experience wasn’t a product of ‘Biblical/Christian lens’, because I was an agnostic and I had never read the Bible. So in a very real way, to turn away from my faith now would be to deny objective reality, and turn to what I know to be false.
Now I believe you when you say you haven’t had this experience, and without it, I am not sure anyone’s faith can be sustained; but that fact doesn’t change the reality of it.
quote:
That's a pretty complex question, but for simplicity's sake I'll say that the Golden Rule is applicable to most situations. I try my best to create an outcome suitable to everyone. Sometimes I miss the mark, but I'm only human. As I see it, that's all we CAN be.
I appreciate that, but what I have always found odd is that we have to appeal to any rules at all. In all of nature we see organisms simply acting as they are; Apes don’t follow ‘ape rules’, dolphins don’t follow ‘dolphin standards’. It would be ridiculous to say, “He’s only a dog, sometimes he misses the mark, but tries his best to be a dog” because dogs don’t ‘try’ to be dogs, they just are what they are. Humans, on the other hand, throughout history, have strived to meet a standard of some sort.
Morality, laws, appeals to our better natures, all these indicate that we sense we are something less than we should be, and in my mind this is most readily explained by the idea that there exists an external and eternal nature, from which we are derived and have fallen short. In short, that is objective proof of both our divine origin, and fallen nature.
quote:
Of course...people often tend to interpret information as evidence for thier worldviews. That's what I wrote. You might want to read about discoveries that provide evidence that is contradictory to the Biblical account of history. It may at least give you an insight into a different perspective.
As I said, I was a skeptic before I was Christian, and in many respects, I still am; the difference is that I now am willing to apply that skepticism to science and materialism, and in doing so I find real objectivity.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/9/2008 12:06:30 PM
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wtsyes
Posts: 7
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline
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God make's it to rain and pour on the righteous and un-righteous alike.
Every good and perfect gift comes down from the father of lights in which there is no turning.
God loves you and wants' your to have a loving friendship with him. That was provided thru his Sons' death and resurection, as a substitution for what you deserve. Just turn around and follow him from now on. Seek him now, because if you seek him, you will find him when you search for him with all your heart.
Isaiah 57:15-19
For this is what the high and lofty One says—
he who lives forever, whose name is holy:
"I live in a high and holy place,
but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit,
to revive the spirit of the lowly
and to revive the heart of the contrite.
16 I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me—
the breath of man that I have created.
17 I was enraged by his sinful greed;
I punished him, and hid my face in anger,
yet he kept on in his willful ways.
18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will guide him and restore comfort to him,
19 creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel.
Peace, peace, to those far and near,"
says the LORD. "And I will heal them."
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/9/2008 12:06:34 PM
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BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 430
Joined: 8/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meymey
if once a believe and you are tested for a long time, like you didn't have a job and all your relationships have gone bad but then you lose your faith and you decide to not make Jesus your choice, as soon as you do you get all these things where did they come from, all of the sudden you have a good job and all of the sudden you have a good relationship you became happy where did all these good things come from. You don't go to church any more, you don't go by the Word of God any more
I know someone who has recently lost their faith. They believed in GOD and trusted in GOD for him to come true and GOD said, "no." I won't help you again. GOD had said no before, and it hurt worse each time, this time she was certain that GOD was going to come through, GOD said, "No."
She suffered, her son died . . . in her mind and in mine for a while, he left and forsook her. He failed, he wasn't right, he wasn't good, he wasn't any of those hymns or songs we sing in church or slogans we see on cars and church signs. GOD was a cruel, in her eyes.
She really hasn't felt close to him sense. She's not happy at all, her life isn't good, it isn't horrible but it isn't good either. Her marriage is suffering because her husband, even though he felt those things about GOD at the time, GOD has reconciled in his heart. He's still angry at some times and he still doesn't know why GOD said "no."
It's hard when folks lose their faith in CHRIST. It's hard, it's hard when you really need GOD and you really give him your all and he said, "No."
It doesn't make sense to us because we love in a different way. We spoil with our love, if you needed me and I could do it and can do it, I won't say NO. I would come through. That's love to us, that's faithfulness to us, that's not how GOD works all the time.
I know GOD loves me deeply, but that doesn't mean he's Santa Claus or Superman . . . that means that I will leave this earth into his arms and that in times of trouble his love will sustain me . . beyond my own reasoning or abilities.
Folks lose their faith, it's not laughing matter and it's nothing any of us can fix or pray up.
All we can do is hope that one day that person will reason again with the LORD. If not we have to go on regardless.
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: lost faith and are happy - 4/10/2008 11:12:01 PM
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besshi
Posts: 16
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Thanks for the breakdown. One thing I want to make clear before I respond is that I think I started from a different viewpoint than you did. I was an agnostic before I was a Christian, a skeptic who was very influenced by reason and science. So I have in a sense already been where you are; much as you feel that you ‘explored’ Christianity objectively, I did the same as an agnostic, except I was equally willing to view a godless life through the same lens; in the end I found it to be empty and meaningless (indeed, in a sense I see now that it really couldn’t be otherwise by definition – any ‘meaning’ we derive for ourselves apart from an external and eternal reality is by definition imaginary).
If you felt that a life without a god was not fulfilling then I’m glad that you found something that gave your life meaning. I wouldn’t, however, classify personal meaning as imaginary. After all, it’s not baseless, just interpretive. Of course, that just might be me splitting hairs.
quote:
In turn, I experienced Christ – and objectively, that experience was as real as anything else that I might have understood or experienced. And I know, that experience wasn’t a product of ‘Biblical/Christian lens’, because I was an agnostic and I had never read the Bible. So in a very real way, to turn away from my faith now would be to deny objective reality, and turn to what I know to be false.
You seem to believe you’re tapped into an external and eternal reality, since you wrote about objective reality with seeming confidence. That brings up a couple questions in my mind. If all Christians have experience with objective reality then why can’t any of them agree what that reality is? I don’t just mean small details, but basic tenets of faith as well. At one point, this very website defined Christians (in the “Christians Only” folder) as conservative, protestant, evangelical Christians. Are those the only “real” Christians? You define a meaningful life based on what you consider an external and eternal reality, but since Christians obviously don’t agree on what exactly that reality is I don’t see how that definition is even valid.
quote:
Now I believe you when you say you haven’t had this experience, and without it, I | | |
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