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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/30/2008 6:22:41 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1091
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
great, if u believe that the holy spirit in the present time is given AT baptism, then someone who is not baptized couldn't have the Spirit? That makes sense, doesn't it? However, I can only say that that's what the Word teaches. But at the same time I'm going to allow God some latitude on this, since He inspired the writers of the Bible. If he chooses to grant the Holy Spirit to someone who isn't baptized, then I don't have a problem with that. But I refuse to teach that that's the norm when I believe the Bible teaches otherwise.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/30/2008 6:30:38 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Peter D and JesKlu,
Thanks for your posts. I don't think it's all that important to be able to pinpoint any exact time/date when you believed, but I do want to make this very important point. No one is saved until they have understood the gospel offer of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ and believe it. Only then does God give eternal life (john 6:40), justification (Rom 3:24-25), forgiveness (Acts 10:43).
Both of you mentioned infant baptism. Whether baptized as an infant or adult makes no difference. You are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8).
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Acts 16:31.
Yes, I believe I am saved by grace through faith in Christ alone.
I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior and that he died for my sins, and for the sins of the whole world, and rose again on the third day, conquering sin and death. Therefore, since I belive in Jesus, sin and death cannot conquer me, even though I still have my sin nature, and even though I will die, those two things cannot conquer me since I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord of my life and I know I will be raised up on the last day when Jesus comes again to judge the living and the dead.
Sola Gratia, Sola fide, Solus Christus.
Soli Deo Gloria (To God Alone be the Glory)
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/1/2008 3:37:17 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What I meant is that we don't see it said of each individual that became saved. But yes, you're correct that Scripture says it generally of believers. So, is Ezekiel 36:26 the 1 Corinthians 12:13 of the Old Testament? That is, saying that generally all Old Testament believers are promised the Spirit of God in their lives. And if so, what are the conditions required for that to occur? Or does God just do it because He wants the people to be obedient to Him?
I think that's a good comparison - Eze and 1Cor. All believers are "baptized" by the Holy Spirit and become one body in Christ as a result.
There are no people who will be obedient to God as He commands. That's why He must give us a new spirit and we become born from above. The same in the OT. As for conditions, there are no conditions we're capable of meeting without first being regenerated in spirit - baptized by the Holy Spirit - born from above. The same applies to all those in the OT whom God tells us are saved. They too must be given a new spirit as it says in Ezekiel.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/1/2008 3:38:26 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
But what is your scriptural support that OT believers were not saved in the same manner as NT believers? As for Ezekiel, he is the prophet to Israel so it most certainly applied to Ancient Israel in the first instance; and, of course, applies to us today. God is clearly speaking to all "true" Israel and there were members of that Israel in Ancient Israel.
God says: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
You can't take God's promises away from the people He gave them to.
You're right. I have no desire to take God's promises away from the people He gave them to. I don't know if its significant or not, but this is a promise. In the New Testament it's an accomplished fact. But maybe that doesn't make any difference, I don't know.
I agree that the promises have a dual application. But, they were also accomplished in Israel when they returned to their land after the Babylonian captivity.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/1/2008 7:04:52 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1091
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It does seem a little strange to me, though, that as a nation God's chosen people were mostly rebellious toward God and yet supposedly filled with His Spirit. It seems that if God was so upset with their rebelliousness he would have given a few more of them the Spirit just to keep them obedient to Him, rather than sending all those prophets. Apparently that wasn't His plan, though.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/1/2008 7:47:29 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
It does seem a little strange to me, though, that as a nation God's chosen people were mostly rebellious toward God and yet supposedly filled with His Spirit. It seems that if God was so upset with their rebelliousness he would have given a few more of them the Spirit just to keep them obedient to Him, rather than sending all those prophets. Apparently that wasn't His plan, though.
GD, I disagree with you on the matter of baptism in the salvation process, but I do agree with you that the Holy Spirit did not normally indwell OT believers.
1) The OT always made a point of an individual having the Spirit come upon them (and inthe case of Samson, when He departed).
2) Jesus made a big to do over His disciples receiving the Holy Spirit. If it was commonplace for OT believers, why didn't the disciples get to have Him already (was there a period when the Holy Spirit quit indwelling believers while Jesus was on earth in the flesh)?
3) Jesus said one point for sending the Holy Spirit was as His replacement when Christ went back to be with the Father. He had not come to reveal Himself prior to His incarnation.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/1/2008 11:33:15 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1091
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
It does seem a little strange to me, though, that as a nation God's chosen people were mostly rebellious toward God and yet supposedly filled with His Spirit. It seems that if God was so upset with their rebelliousness he would have given a few more of them the Spirit just to keep them obedient to Him, rather than sending all those prophets. Apparently that wasn't His plan, though.
GD, I disagree with you on the matter of baptism in the salvation process, but I do agree with you that the Holy Spirit did not normally indwell OT believers.
1) The OT always made a point of an individual having the Spirit come upon them (and inthe case of Samson, when He departed). And Saul, too (see 1 Samuel 16:14)
quote:
2) Jesus made a big to do over His disciples receiving the Holy Spirit. If it was commonplace for OT believers, why didn't the disciples get to have Him already (was there a period when the Holy Spirit quit indwelling believers while Jesus was on earth in the flesh)?
3) Jesus said one point for sending the Holy Spirit was as His replacement when Christ went back to be with the Father. He had not come to reveal Himself prior to His incarnation.
Thanks, brother. I'm glad we agree on something, at least 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/1/2008 4:10:08 PM
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twonatures
Posts: 92
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quote:
Are you saved but not baptized?
I was water baptized when I was a baby
but then I got saved (or baptized with the Holy Spirit) two score and thirteen years later.
So does that count
or am I only half saved because I lack the post dunktorate?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/1/2008 5:04:21 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1091
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If you know the Bible teaches baptism after belief and you don't do it, are you still saved?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 4:32:19 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3356
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
It does seem a little strange to me, though, that as a nation God's chosen people were mostly rebellious toward God and yet supposedly filled with His Spirit. It seems that if God was so upset with their rebelliousness he would have given a few more of them the Spirit just to keep them obedient to Him, rather than sending all those prophets. Apparently that wasn't His plan, though.
Obviously we don't know why God didn't save more Ancient Israelites; but, you know so many "thought" they were saved because they were circumcised. Just by virtue of being Jewish - God's chosen people - they believed they were saved.
It's not unlike the churches today. Millions upon millions of people identify themselves as Christians; but, many and maybe even most are not saved.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 5:16:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3356
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
1) The OT always made a point of an individual having the Spirit come upon them (and inthe case of Samson, when He departed). The Holy Spirit "coming upon" an individual is not the same as being indwelled. We see believers and unbelievers being moved by the Holy Spirit in the OT.
quote:
2) Jesus made a big to do over His disciples receiving the Holy Spirit. If it was commonplace for OT believers, why didn't the disciples get to have Him already (was there a period when the Holy Spirit quit indwelling believers while Jesus was on earth in the flesh)? When Christ "breathed" on the Apostles and said "receive ye the Holy Ghost", this didn't mean they were not saved and did not have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. This represents Christ qualifying them to begin their ministry; and, shortly thereafter on Pentecost when they all were "filled with the Holy Spirit"(Acts 2:4) it began in earnest - as they "began to speak".
Thomas was not in the room that day when Christ "breathed" upon them. Does this mean Thomas was not saved - never was indwelled by the Holy Spirit? No, from the moment of regeneration the Apostles were indwelled by the Holy Spirit just as every believer must be.
quote:
3) Jesus said one point for sending the Holy Spirit was as His replacement when Christ went back to be with the Father. He had not come to reveal Himself prior to His incarnation. Scripture reveals that the OT saints all believed in the coming Messiah. Paul said that their was a remnant of Israel that was saved by grace - same as NT believers. Abraham evidenced faith just as NT believers do. David and Job were said specifically to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
The foundation is built upon the apostles and the prophets in whom we are built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit(Epe 2:22). In 1Peter 1:11 it says that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old.
I agree there was an "explosion" so to speak of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost or more accurately - a pouring out. It was at this time God chose to use believers as the means to bring the Gospel to the world. The term "filled with the Holy Spirit" is very interesting and very much connected with evangelizing.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 3:05:42 PM
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twonatures
Posts: 92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
If you know the Bible teaches baptism after belief and you don't do it, are you still saved?
So belief + water = saved?
I thought it was by grace though faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved,
or are you adding water to that too?.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 3:12:54 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
If you know the Bible teaches baptism after belief and you don't do it, are you still saved?
So belief + water = saved?
I thought it was by grace though faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved,
or are you adding water to that too?.
I don't think that's what he's saying and it is a valid question, even though I do not believe in baptismal regeneration or that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at/after baptism.
Here's the question as I perceive it:
1) Someone says they believe, repent, and professess Jesus as Lord and Savior.
2) Jesus commanded that all believers be baptized.
3) Was that person REALLY saved if they will not be baptized - especially after being shown where baptism was commanded by Jesus?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 3:32:58 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
great, if u believe that the holy spirit in the present time is given AT baptism, then someone who is not baptized couldn't have the Spirit? That makes sense, doesn't it? However, I can only say that that's what the Word teaches. But at the same time I'm going to allow God some latitude on this, since He inspired the writers of the Bible. If he chooses to grant the Holy Spirit to someone who isn't baptized, then I don't have a problem with that. But I refuse to teach that that's the norm when I believe the Bible teaches otherwise.
So, God allows some people to be saved differently than others. Perhaps differently isn't the right word to use in this case, but I think you understand what I am saying. Where do u see in scripture that the norm is what you teach, that being the Spirit is given AT baptism? Acts 2:38 can be interpreted in many different ways, and its not logical to take it the way you do simply because the way you understand what it means is NOT recorded in scripture in such events as what we see in acts 8, acts 10, and acts 19. It may have happened with Paul, that is a big MAYBE. I'm not saying I don't the Spirit cant be given at baptism, I have seen it given at baptism and believe whole heartedly that it can be. However, with the clear cut examples we are given in acts of what actually happened in the early church, it should be clear to anyone that the norm at that time was not the spirit being given AT baptism.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 4:20:10 PM
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twonatures
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
If you know the Bible teaches baptism after belief and you don't do it, are you still saved?
So belief + water = saved?
I thought it was by grace though faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved,
or are you adding water to that too?.
I don't think that's what he's saying and it is a valid question, even though I do not believe in baptismal regeneration or that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at/after baptism.
Here's the question as I perceive it:
1) Someone says they believe, repent, and professess Jesus as Lord and Savior.
2) Jesus commanded that all believers be baptized.
3) Was that person REALLY saved if they will not be baptized - especially after being shown where baptism was commanded by Jesus?
Yes,
thanks for the clarification on the question.
Can we say that Jesus actually commanded all believers be baptized?
I think it could be a misinterpretation.
I am with you on the baptismal regeneration thing.
Sometimes people are regenerated before being baptized like me
or sometimes they are baptized and never regenerated.
I think the important thing is to be identified with Jesus Christ because he is the savior, he is the object of faith.
Funny thing, the Greek word for baptism also means identification.
Still I think it is a nice gesture to be dunked.
If there was much water and it pleased the pastor I could take the plunge.
Hey, I'm a SCUBA diver.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 5:16:52 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1091
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So, God allows some people to be saved differently than others. Perhaps differently isn't the right word to use in this case, but I think you understand what I am saying.
I would say that God teaches us in His word how He expects us to receive salvation. However, if there are extenuating circumstances and a person can't meet those expectations, I believe that God, being loving and merciful, can save them any way He pleases. But I don't believe God expects me to teach another way of salvation, but the way that I see in His word, even if other ways are possible.
quote:
Where do u see in scripture that the norm is what you teach, that being the Spirit is given AT baptism? Acts 2:38 can be interpreted in many different ways, and its not logical to take it the way you do simply because the way you understand what it means is NOT recorded in scripture in such events as what we see in acts 8, acts 10, and acts 19. It may have happened with Paul, that is a big MAYBE. I'm not saying I don't the Spirit cant be given at baptism, I have seen it given at baptism and believe whole heartedly that it can be. However, with the clear cut examples we are given in acts of what actually happened in the early church, it should be clear to anyone that the norm at that time was not the spirit being given AT baptism. Well, since you've already debunked the Scripture that I believe points out that the Holy Spirit is given at baptism, I see no reason to bring it up again.
What I would like to stress about the book of Acts is that every believer was baptized. No matter when they received the Holy Spirit, before, during, or after, they were all baptized. There is no such thing in the entire New Testament as an unbaptized believer. In fact, if the word "oxymoron" had been around in the 1st century, I'm sure that's how early believers would have seen the phrase "unbaptized believer." 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 6:08:30 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3356
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Holy Spirit "coming upon" an individual is not the same as being indwelled. We see believers and unbelievers being moved by the Holy Spirit in the OT. I'm glad to see you say this. This is what I've been arguing about Cornelius and his household all along. The Holy Spirit "falling" on someone is not the same as being indwelled. Finally, we've come to a point of agreement.
Don't be "too" glad, yet :)
First, Peter preached the Gospel to Cornelius and the Holy Spirit fell upon them exactly as He did upon those at Pentecost with the evidence of tongues. And, we see in Acts 10:42-42 that it was: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word".
Right there, it is the evidence of salvation, the same as we see it as the evidence and fulfillment of Christ's declaration to the Apostles: "and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." It was in those places that "tongues" accompanied salvation.
Second, there is evidence of believers being indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the OT. In addition, 1Peter 1:10-11 doesn't say that the Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT prophets. It says that the Spirit of Christ was IN them; therefore, they too were indwelled by the Holy Spirit exactly as believers are today.
From an earlier post...I was hoping to get your explanation to the following:
quote:
quote:
And BTW, while it is true that no one is acceptable God in their sinful state, I believe that in OT times, God accepted people based on their desire to keep His promises. Are you saying these "acceptable" people are going into heaven with their dead spirit since they're not born again?
No thoughts on any of the scriptural evidence I provided in my post to Jimbo?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/2/2008 6:09:56 PM
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twonatures
Posts: 92
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From: Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
If you know the Bible teaches baptism after belief and you don't do it, are you still saved?
So belief + water = saved?
I thought it was by grace though faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved,
or are you adding water to that too?.
No, belief + water does not equal saved. It is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved. No, I'm not adding water to anything. But you never answered my question: If you know the Bible teaches baptism after belief and you don't do it, are you still saved?
I hope that question's not to hard for you
I answered it above your last post to me.
So I am not opposed to it I just don't have the same scriptural interpretation that you do
thus I don't see the importance of it other than a ritual display.
I certainly would not go around pushing it on others because it detracts from the focus on Christ and identifying with him.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/3/2008 1:30:44 AM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 98
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So, God allows some people to be saved differently than others. Perhaps differently isn't the right word to use in this case, but I think you understand what I am saying.
I would say that God teaches us in His word how He expects us to receive salvation. However, if there are extenuating circumstances and a person can't meet those expectations, I believe that God, being loving and merciful, can save them any way He pleases. But I don't believe God expects me to teach another way of salvation, but the way that I see in His word, even if other ways are possible.
quote:
Where do u see in scripture that the norm is what you teach, that being the Spirit is given AT baptism? Acts 2:38 can be interpreted in many different ways, and its not logical to take it the way you do simply because the way you understand what it means is NOT recorded in scripture in such events as what we see in acts 8, acts 10, and acts 19. It may have happened with Paul, that is a big MAYBE. I'm not saying I don't the Spirit cant be given at baptism, I have seen it given at baptism and believe whole heartedly that it can be. However, with the clear cut examples we are given in acts of what actually happened in the early church, it should be clear to anyone that the norm at that time was not the spirit being given AT baptism. Well, since you've already debunked the Scripture that I believe points out that the Holy Spirit is given at baptism, I see no reason to bring it up again.
What I would like to stress about the book of Acts is that every believer was baptized. No matter when they received the Holy Spirit, before, during, or after, they were all baptized. There is no such thing in the entire New Testament as an unbaptized believer. In fact, if the word "oxymoron" had been around in the 1st century, I'm sure that's how early believers would have seen the phrase "unbaptized believer."
Thanks for the reply Great, I whole heartedly believe along the same lines as all believers should be baptized immediately, and it isnt something to be hesitant about. I do have a question for you tho. What if someone you have been teaching your understanding to in fact does become baptized, and you tell them they have received the holy spirit, and they believe this too because its what they ahve ben taught, but... they dont receive it at baptism... then what?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/3/2008 7:42:02 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1091
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
First, Peter preached the Gospel to Cornelius and the Holy Spirit fell upon them exactly as He did upon those at Pentecost with the evidence of tongues. And, we see in Acts 10:42-42 that it was: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word". So, how does this mean salvation, when all it says is that the Holy Spirit "fell upon" them. Is it because He "fell upon" them while Peter was speaking the words that it means salvation in this case, but not in other cases where He "fell upon" the prophets?
quote:
Right there, it is the evidence of salvation, the same as we see it as the evidence and fulfillment of Christ's declaration to the Apostles: "and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." It was in those places that "tongues" accompanied salvation. I seem to be missing your point. I don't see how that makes "fell upon" mean salvation here whereas it doesn't mean salvation elsewhere.
quote:
Second, there is evidence of believers being indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the OT. In addition, 1Peter 1:10-11 doesn't say that the Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT prophets. It says that the Spirit of Christ was IN them; therefore, they too were indwelled by the Holy Spirit exactly as believers are today. Certainly the Spirit of Christ was IN the OT prophets, but only the prophets, and then it wasn't necessarily a permanent indwelling like it is today. So, I don't believe it was "exactly" as believers today are indwelled by the Holy Spirit
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/3/2008 7:47:00 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1091
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twonatures
I answered it above your last post to me.
So I am not opposed to it I just don't have the same scriptural interpretation that you do
thus I don't see the importance of it other than a ritual display.
I certainly would not go around pushing it on others because it detracts from the focus on Christ and identifying with him. I guess I missed it. So I'm going to assume, based on this post, that you think a person who believes | | |
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