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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/12/2008 11:26:29 AM
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P31W
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quote:
There's something that I feel needs to be asked, if only to put a bit of a reality check into play.
Of all the money that conservatives are so proud to announce that they give, how much of it actually goes to the cause itself? What percentage goes into management, worker salaries and the like?
It's all well and good to give, but unless a decent percentage goes to the cause you're trying to help then it's just posturing.
Don't try to HI JACK this thread. Go start another one. This is off topic.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/12/2008 11:26:50 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Many studies on charitable giving have documented the fact that conservatives and evangelical/conservative/christians give far more money to the poor than liberals, liberal/republicans, liberal/democrates, liberal/christians.
Some interesting stats on who gives. Conservatives give more than liberals..
Says Brooks: "The most charitable people in America today are the working poor."
African-Americans give 25 percent more of their discretionary income to charity than do others. For instance, African-Americans who make between $30,000 and $50,000 give an average of $528 annually, compared with $462 donated by their white counterparts in the same income range.
People see these false gospel people giving, and think that's right because that is what God said to do! And what do Christians do, tells us hunger is good! Greed is good!
The statistic you quoted is a valuable addition to this discussion; however, the comment at the end isn't. Looking the statistics book's provided as a whole, one quickly sees that those who are actively involved in a community of faith (black or white) give far more than those who are not (black or white). And I personally have never seen any Christian (black or white) say that "hunger is good! Greed is Good!", and if I ever heard a church teach anything like that I would run away as fast as I could. Please tone down the rhetoric, and keep the discussion fair and balanced.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/12/2008 11:43:29 AM
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lightshineon
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Well giving to the poor is a sign of Godliness, but that is done in secret. I do not like Obama at all, he is a phoney in my opinion. Though, his giving backs up my opinion, his giving does not seem that big of deal for me.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/12/2008 11:55:31 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I do not like Obama at all, he is a phoney in my opinion. Though, his giving backs up my opinion
Correct!!!! The more American learn about Obama the more we see what his "true character" is all about. For some folks it takes more "evidence" to prove he is a phoney than it does for others.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/12/2008 12:23:48 PM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
There's something that I feel needs to be asked, if only to put a bit of a reality check into play.
Of all the money that conservatives are so proud to announce that they give, how much of it actually goes to the cause itself? What percentage goes into management, worker salaries and the like?
It's all well and good to give, but unless a decent percentage goes to the cause you're trying to help then it's just posturing.
Don't try to HI JACK this thread. Go start another one. This is off topic.
No it's not. It's just a truism you don't want to acknowledge.
The point is that you're basing your opinion on how much money someone gives to help a cause. My question is entirely in line with that. How much good does it do to brag about how generous a group is if the money doesn't actually go where it's supposed to?
Isn't it just a little bit hypocritical to demand that someone give according to YOUR standards when you may not even be sure of where your own money goes?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/12/2008 4:30:56 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
The statistic you quoted is a valuable addition to this discussion; however, the comment at the end isn't. Looking the statistics book's provided as a whole, one quickly sees that those who are actively involved in a community of faith (black or white) give far more than those who are not (black or white). And I personally have never seen any Christian (black or white) say that "hunger is good! Greed is Good!", and if I ever heard a church teach anything like that I would run away as fast as I could. Please tone down the rhetoric, and keep the discussion fair and balanced.
Have you looked thru some of these other threads? We are all Christians on here, right? The verse, man does not eat, if he does work is often quoted to back that up.
Have you ever listened to some of the Christian Conservative Right? Ever hear how the recouncil some of what they are doing with money, to their Christianity.
Have you ever watched TBN?
I'm trying to keep it fair and balanced. I'm on the side of the poor!
Should Obama give more! Of course, too whom much is given, much is expected. But I don't expect at all that he may know that, watching some of those sermons at his Church. He is not being taught right, like a LOT of Christians.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 4/12/2008 4:37:18 PM >
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/12/2008 4:40:00 PM
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lightshineon
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True Tracy, his church is unbalanced, so what do we expect? TBN, another story, that gives people of faith a bad name. The parable of the mustard seed, and it grew very large, and the birds came to nest in it. Meaning, birds are usually bad except the dove, Look at the wheat story. Lots of birds have came to nest in Christian circles.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 12:53:02 AM
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ljmac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
There's something that I feel needs to be asked, if only to put a bit of a reality check into play.
Of all the money that conservatives are so proud to announce that they give, how much of it actually goes to the cause itself? What percentage goes into management, worker salaries and the like?
It's all well and good to give, but unless a decent percentage goes to the cause you're trying to help then it's just posturing.
Don't try to HI JACK this thread. Go start another one. This is off topic.
No it's not. It's just a truism you don't want to acknowledge.
The point is that you're basing your opinion on how much money someone gives to help a cause. My question is entirely in line with that. How much good does it do to brag about how generous a group is if the money doesn't actually go where it's supposed to?
Isn't it just a little bit hypocritical to demand that someone give according to YOUR standards when you may not even be sure of where your own money goes?
This isn't the first time I've seen someone criticize people for being charitable. Liberal icon Margaret Sanger wanted to ban charity.
Let's ask the good Samaritan if he checked on management fees.
Take the BHO method to solving overhead waste. Don't give any money, overhead waste solved.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 7:55:16 AM
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P31W
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quote:
True Tracy, his church is unbalanced, so what do we expect?
I am expecting to see some evidence that he is the extremely caring person that he claims in public to be.
I am not holding him to Christian standard because I don't believe he is one.
What I am doing is looking for any evidence that he is who he says he is. I am looking at his words to see if they line up with his actions. This man is asking for my vote to make him my president. I have a responsibility to examine his character to see if he is a man of integrity or not.
The more rocks I unturn concerning him the more I find his words to be false and misleading.
For example he claims to be a Chrisitan. He said on national TV that he held to the "social gospel". That was not a shocker for me. I knew that he was probably not a true Believer but at least he was honest that he followed the social gospel. Turning over the rock of his spiritural mentor and his church tells me that there is no reason what so ever for me to believe that he is telling the public the truth. His Church teaches BLT which is not the same as the social gospel or the true godpel of Jesus Christ. It's a hate group with a tax exempt status and hides inself under the banner of a Chruch. (what is worse is that he allows his children to be baptised and indoctrinated into this racist false religion)
In his book he claims that he only earned 13K when he worked in a helping job. He failed to mention that in less than 2 years that income almost doubled to $25K (that was in the early to mid 80's)
He says he cares about people who are without power yet he calls an unplanned baby a "punishment" and his voting record proves yet again that he only cares for "certain people" others he believes are worthy of death.
He tells us that he is a very giving and generous person. (he cares about people) When I turn over the tax return again I find no evidence to believe that he is being honest with the public.
(God warns me that when people are not honest in little matters they WILL NOT be honest in bigger ones)
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/14/2008 8:41:23 AM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 8:38:53 AM
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P31W
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quote:
This isn't the first time I've seen someone criticize people for being charitable.
Me either. I've never seen someone who was a "giver" criticize another giver. What I have seen is people who are stingy and don't give criticize givers. For me that is so common that I pretty much know they don't give squat. I think it's a mind game for them. They are looking for ways to justify their own lack of care and concern for others while yelling that others need to do more to help them.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 10:10:15 AM
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jkdjr25
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
This isn't the first time I've seen someone criticize people for being charitable.
Me either. I've never seen someone who was a "giver" criticize another giver. What I have seen is people who are stingy and don't give criticize givers. For me that is so common that I pretty much know they don't give squat. I think it's a mind game for them. They are looking for ways to justify their own lack of care and concern for others while yelling that others need to do more to help them.
I'm not criticizing people who are charitable, though the accusation is a nice attempt at dodging the real issue. I'm criticizing people who brag about their giving habits yet have no idea if the money that they give is actually going to the cause they gave to.
For example if a person gives say $100 to a charity then it's that person's responsibility to make sure that the lion's share of the money will go to the cause it's intended for and not office and management expenses. If 90% of the money goes to salaries, management and other costs and only 10% goes to the cause itself then you've really only given $10 to the actual cause. If you don't know where it went then you weren't giving responsiblly. Besides you shouldn't be bragging about how giving you are in the first place.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 10:22:36 AM
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P31W
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No one here is bragging about what they give.
You on the other hand asked how much people gave but when asked the same quesiton you "changed" the subject. Now you assume that people who give are not wise stewards. Again a stupid assumption and off topic.
Now get back on topic or I will report you.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 11:10:54 AM
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adelphi_sky
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If anyone gives from the heart in compassion to another no matter the amount, it is well with God. Remember it is far better for a rich man to give a little in secret which is a greater sacrifice than a Christian who boasts that they gave much. Remember the parable about the people who fasted and made sure people knew they fasted? And how God looked favorably on those who fasted in secret? It is not for us to know who gives how much to who and when. If we give at all, it is well. Let us not become the Pharises who got so caught up in the details that they missed the big picture. We don't know Obama's personal circumstances or situation of why he only reported what he did on his taxes. Anything other than public record is PERSONAL. I'm sure we don't need to know when he may have given his uncle Cletus $5000 to get his car fixed one time. Sheesh. We all have seasons of drought and abundance. Pride comes before a fall. Dare I boast about my giving lest I be judged by the same. He gives point blank. He could've been a greedy auto accident lawyer you see on tv. But he studied law for public service.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 11:15:09 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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quote:
He could've been a greedy auto accident lawyer you see on tv. But he studied law for public service.
ROFL !!!!!!!!!!!!HAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!
Man that is a good one!!!
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If anyone gives from the heart in compassion to another no matter the amount, it is well with God.
That is simply false. If I flip a starving child a penny and go eat a $1,000 meal in my $1,000 suit in my $1,655.000.00 manson it's not "well with God". Give me a break.
You are trying your best to justify Obama's lack of giving.
(Oh and 5K with his income is just a drop in the buckett. He should be giving away thousands weekly. That would require that he be a wise steward and not give it in "cash" and that there be some records of the transactions so that thieves won't pocket the money and it not go the the causes that he intends for it to - this is about his stewardship and wisdom in handling his own resources. )
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I'm sure we don't need to know when he may have given his uncle Cletus $5000 to get his car fixed one time.
I don't count that either. Again we don't know that he "would" help out a family member.
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Dare I boast about my giving lest I be judged by the same. He gives point blank.
He gave $20 per week in 2002 when his income was over 250K. A "mere tithe" would have been $480 per week. The average American gave 4 times per week what he gave and on an income that was a fraction of his own.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/14/2008 11:28:51 AM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 11:36:52 AM
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jkdjr25
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
No one here is bragging about what they give.
You on the other hand asked how much people gave but when asked the same quesiton you "changed" the subject. Now you assume that people who give are not wise stewards. Again a stupid assumption and off topic.
Now get back on topic or I will report you.
Wow you totally missed the point.
It has been a consistent point of reference that conservatives "give" more than liberals in terms of money and time. That's fine I've got no problem with that. However if you make a point to consistently bring that up as a measure of how much better conservatives are then it's a fair question to ask if they know where the lion's share of the donations go to. If they don't then there are other questions that can and should be asked. Keep in mind I feel this way about anyone who gives to a charity. There is a level of responsibility on the giver to know if the charity is legit and that they send the majoirty of their donations to the actual cause and not other costs.
My point has also been that just because a person doesn't declare their charitable donations on a tax return isn't proof that they haven't been generous. They could believe that to do such would be in violation of Christ's admonition to keep such gifts and aid secret. That such things were between the giver and God. I feel that way myself on this matter, though I suppose that's neither here not there.
There are things that are more likely but the above is not outside the realm of possibility.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 11:44:38 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
My point has also been that just because a person doesn't declare their charitable donations on a tax return isn't proof that they haven't been generous. They could believe that to do such would be in violation of Christ's admonition to keep such gifts and aid secret. That such things were between the giver and God
That I will agree on though I do not think Obama falls into that camp just on the words of his wife alone.
_____________________________
TomTurn, "a typical white person from a small town but not in a Christian nation, who clings to God, owns guns, actually listened to the pastor for 22 years, whose life did start at conception and whose mother was punished with 3 babies"
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 11:46:40 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 653
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
quote:
My point has also been that just because a person doesn't declare their charitable donations on a tax return isn't proof that they haven't been generous. They could believe that to do such would be in violation of Christ's admonition to keep such gifts and aid secret. That such things were between the giver and God
That I will agree on though I do not think Obama falls into that camp just on the words of his wife alone.
I've never said that wasn't a very distinct possibility. I just wanted to point out that there are other plausible possibilities as well.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 12:24:26 PM
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adelphi_sky
Posts: 68
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
He could've been a greedy auto accident lawyer you see on tv. But he studied law for public service.
ROFL !!!!!!!!!!!!HAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!
Man that is a good one!!!
It sure was. We all know why some people go into law. It's for the money. Some people go into law for public service. Now, if you think anyone who studies law is somehow open to scrutiny, then you have issues. It's an example of his character.
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quote:
If anyone gives from the heart in compassion to another no matter the amount, it is well with God.
That is simply false. If I flip a starving child a penny and go eat a $1,000 meal in my $1,000 suit in my $1,655.000.00 manson it's not "well with God". Give me a break.
You are trying your best to justify Obama's lack of giving.
That is not false. And let the record show, that he gave more than a penny. You know it's ironic for us to applaud our pastors when they do the same thing. But we hold a public servant to the same standards as clergy. That's insane. Furthermore, who are you to judge what is not well with God? If that man never gave a dime in his life and then decides late in life to start giving, that is between him and God. And the God I know is merciful. I learned that by understanding the grace and mercy of God. Of which is sorely lacking in this forum. Everyone gives according to their personal, not financial capacity. Yes, some Christians give more than others. But we are all sisters and brothers in Christ. And why don't you tell those who did benefit from his giving that what he gave does not matter? Tell them that he is horrible at giving. Look them in the face and tell them that he's not doing all that he could. Yeah. While they go to church and see the pastor driving a Bently from the airport after he gets off his private jet. I'm sure they'll agree with you. :-)
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(Oh and 5K with his income is just a drop in the buckett. He should be giving away thousands weekly.
According to who? Again, you don't know his circumstances. You don't know his debts. He doesn't have 100s of millions like Hillary and McCain. One poster mentioned they have student loans. And for Harvard Law, that's easily in the hundreds of thousands. Good stewards also means paying off yoru debts as well. And if he did give away thousands weekly, why should you have to know about it know about it? Again, his entire private life is not for us to know. Even as President, there are some things that he has a right to keep private. You're casting a lot of stones. I could see if he didn't give at all. Whether we like it our not, beneficiary giving above a certain amount is not a requirement for President.
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I'm sure we don't need to know when he may have given his uncle Cletus $5000 to get his car fixed one time.
I don't count that either. Again we don't know that he "would" help out a family member.
And we don't know that he didn't. You know, I always think if I came into a lot of money, how many people around me that are in immediate need that won't show up in my tax return. I could give thousands to family and friends in need that I couldn't report on my taxes. A lot of families don't have "old money" to rely on. So, teh first person who makes a windfall will most surely be expected to help out. Now the question is, could there be members of his family he turned down who have asked for help? That would be a good indicator of his heart. What he does OFF the public record.
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Dare I boast about my giving lest I be judged by the same. He gives point blank.
He gave $20 per week in 2002 when his income was over 250K. A "mere tithe" would have been $480 per week. The average American gave 4 times per week what he gave and on an income that was a fraction of his own.
That's more than a lot of Christians sitting right next to you in your church give. Unless you know how much they are supposed to be giving too based on their tax returns.
What if Obama gave 70% of his income? Then what? I'm sure we could drum up some other reason why he is a bad person. See, I have a different viewpoint. I look at if they gave at all. Getting wrapped into numbers misses the whole point. And no, I'm not talking silliness by giving a penny. If that $20 went to feed a hungry child for a week. Then that is a work that will not go up in flames. Do you actually think God would frown at ANY act of benevolence from His children? Whether it's a sacrifice or not, it's still an act of love. Will God refuse my work if I gave someone $5 for gas money instead of giving them $500? Obama's acts of benevolence can be no more condemned than our own. It makes him no less of a Christian and you know it.
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 2:57:23 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
What if Obama gave 70% of his income? Then what?
Then we would not have this thread. However because Obama has spent much of him time bragging about his good works and even writting a book about it the "least" we should be able to do is find "some" evidence that what he is saying is true.
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One poster mentioned they have student loans. And for Harvard Law, that's easily in the hundreds of thousands.
If you want to participate in this thread please read the post carefully. His students loans were paid off the year before he reported giving only 1,050.00 to chairty and his income was in the top 2% of the nation.
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If that $20 went to feed a hungry child for a week. Then that is a work that will not go up in flames. Do you actually think God would frown at ANY act of benevolence from His children?
Cut the bologna. This is not about his Christian walk. It's about him asking for my vote and if he is a man who is honest or a not.
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I could give thousands to family and friends in need that I couldn't report on my taxes.
This is false. You can and in some cases "must" report it.
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here is a limit to how much you can deduct. When you reach a certain amount of giving, there's no point in recording the full amount on your taxes because you'll only get a set limit deducted from your taxes. I think the limit is different per income. I think mine was $4,000. So, even if I gave $10,000, it wouldn't matter, the IRS is only going to deduct $4,000. Therefore, $6,000 of that $10,000 doesn't get reported. So, I just record $4,000.
You said it earlier. This is incorrect. Please get your "facts" right before you post. It hurts "your" reputation.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/14/2008 3:10:31 PM >
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 3:06:41 PM
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jkdjr25
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From: Michigan
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I'm not aware of any law that says an individual MUST report their charitable giving. It's true that you can claim those donations as tax write offs but there are people who choose to not report them. For those people reporting such things would be too close to a violation of Christ's admonission that we do such giving in secret.
Therefore you cannot use a person's tax returns as ironclad proof of how generous they are. Especially since there are some people who only give because it's a tax write off.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 3:15:48 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
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quote:
there are some people who only give because it's a tax write off.
Random, this one is for you my dear. ROFL.......
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 3:30:53 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 653
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
there are some people who only give because it's a tax write off.
Random, this one is for you my dear. ROFL.......
I fail to see the humor in the truth. There are people who only make donations because of the tax write-off, there are people who genuinely give and don't report a dime, and there are people at every point in between. Thus you cannot use YOUR definition of generous when you only know what's on a tax receipt because you can't know for sure based on circumstantial evidence.
You also have a responsibility as a giver to make sure that the charities you give to are legit and that the lion's share of their received donations actually go to the cause they support. You can do that with greater ease by way of the internet and google searches.
What I've said isn't criticism it's just the truth laid bare. At least in my own opinion.
< Message edited by jkdjr25 -- 4/14/2008 4:55:21 PM >
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 3:46:27 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 943
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Buffalo Trading Post
Status: online
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quote:
He could've been a greedy auto accident lawyer you see on tv. But he studied law for public service.
Someone should tell those greedy accident lawyers, most of whom seem to be making modest sums, that going the route of public service, like Obama, seems much more profitable than chasing ambulances. Public service apparently pays really well.
_____________________________
John Galt '08
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/14/2008 6:40:44 PM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
going the route of public service, like Obama, seems much more profitable than chasing ambulances. Public service apparently pays really well.
Robbing citizens through the law and taxes instead of a gun, which I have least respect for than the thief who puts the gun in my face.
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TomTurn, "a typical white person from a small town but not in a Christian nation, who clings to God, owns guns, actually listened to the pastor for 22 years, whose life did start at conception and whose mother was punished with 3 babies"
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RE: How caring is Obama...follow the money! - 4/15/2008 7:48:12 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1921
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
adelphi_sky
I could give thousands to family and friends in need that I couldn't report on my taxes.
quote:
jkdjr25
I'm not aware of any law that says an individual MUST report their charitable giving.
jkdjr25,
Study IRS publication 950 to understand my reply to the other poster.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/15/2008 8:50:15 AM >
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