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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 5:57:53 PM
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earthless
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prophetica speak!
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 8:39:16 PM
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DayStar43
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From: Texas
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Back to reform theology. If Calvary Chapel does not agree with some of the tenets of reform theology, specifically predestination, why should the pastors teach it? Not all protestant churches accept that aspect of reform theology so they do not teach it. Some of them address the issue to inform their congregations but certainly not to say that it's the truth. My pastor has addressed it under those terms. Just because it's been taught hundreds of years by some as truth doesn't make it so.
Pastor Chuck Smith does not call Calvary Chapel a denomination. It is a group of like-minded pastors/churches that receive support from one another. Many of the pastors learned from Pastor Chuck at Costa Mesa. They went out and started churches of like-minded thinking. That is how Calvary Chapel has grown... people in a Calvary Chapel liking the way the Bible is taught and wanting to share that with others so they go to an area where there is no Calvary Chapel and generally begin one in their homes. When they outgrow the home, then they move into larger spaces. I think that there are many of the Calvary Chapel pastors who are among some of the best preachers I've ever heard. And they not only preach the Word, they act it out in their lives. There is nothing cultish or secretive about Calvary Chapel.
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 8:47:51 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
My many years of attending Calvary Chapels experiences have been mixed.
They are great teaching churches. I have learned so much from them. I will be forever grateful for the example they have set for me in ministry, in their love for the Word, their love for the Lord and being used by God to help get me hungry for God's Word and excited about serving the Lord.
However, they are top-heavy, IMHO. For example one must ask to look at the financial books - their spending is not out in the open.
They greatly lack (at the churches I attended) in stressing the importance of sins that can rip a relationship apart such as gossip, etc. There is very little emphasis on becoming Christ-like, (again, at the chruches I attended).
I believe what started out as a pure movement has taken a slight turn away from making the Lord Jesus Christ the center of our worship instead, they make the "teaching of the Word of God" more of an emphasis.
Nevertheless, they have done an incredible work, will be rewarded much more than myself and all in all are sound, wonderful churches. Many great, great men and women of God in CC's!
Regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit they believe in them with the exception they believe the office of a prophet no longer exists.
First of all, I go to one of the larger CC's and have since I got saved many years ago. I also work there. I am grateful to God for my CC Pastor/Boss (one of Chuck Smith's original pastors along with Greg Laurie) who instilled the Word of God in me, never wavering from the Truth. It is my foundation and it is what has kept me strong when other friends and acquaintances (too many to count) from other less biblically oriented churches have fallen by the wayside.
There are hundreds upon hundreds of CC's. If you had a bad experience at one or two of them, I'm sorry, but it happens! Things can go wrong...churches are led by men who can make mistakes ...they're human, but doctrinally, I believe CC's are sound.
Regarding the top heavy statement...I don't know what you're talking about. Top heavy would indicate that there are more people on staff (to put it in secular terms) in top management positions. This is simply not true.
Regarding the finances...not quite understanding what you mean by "having their spending out in the open." Do you mean printing it in the bulletin? That would never happen because money in general is never emphasized. Also, there is no formal membership. I would venture to say one would have to request to see the finances in most churches. Most CC's are audited every year by independent auditing agencies and that information is available to anyone who asks for it. CC's also are in complete compliance to government requirements in their record keeping.
You also contend that they are too heavy in the teaching of God's Word, yet contradict yourself by saying they're light on sin. If the Word of God is taught week-by-week and verse-by-verse, sin cannot be glossed over. Regarding the worship...worship at CC's has always been important, but yes, I would have to say, the Word is our center and our worship is based on that, as it should be, imo.
Yes, they are conservative concerning the gifts, something for which I will be forever grateful.
Just sharing my personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that  I don't think it would help at all if I tried to explain to you
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 8:57:08 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I would have to say, the Word is our center and our worship is based on that, as it should be, imo.
And herein is my key disagreement with them. They have made the "teaching of the Word of God" an "it" and not the Author of the Word of God.
Their main focus is on the teaching of the Word of God instead of on The Lord Jesus Christ, the Author of the Word of God.
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 9:10:11 PM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 122
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While it's true that Calvary Chapel denies being a denomination, since they have taken a name for themselves, beyond merely Christian, and follow very closely the teachings and practices of one man, Pastor Chuck, they are by definition a denomination. I guess I'm from the "if it walks. swims and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck" school of thought.
Also, I didn't say they are secretive, I said insular (in my experience). It's not a slam against the denomination, just an observation. I know many fruit bearing Christians who are hard core Chapelmentarians and it's obvious that God is at work through them and their church.
_____________________________
Heartland Rocks!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 9:20:01 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3397
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
Just sharing my personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that I don't think it would help at all if I tried to explain to you
Did I say there was anything wrong with that? I don't think I did. I also have no idea what you mean by it wouldn't help if you tried to explain it to me. What was your point in saying that?... or am I just supposed to guess? BTW, placing a smiley face after a statement like that doesn't make it sound any sweeter.
Responding to the issues you brought up and I responded to would be the right thing to do...such as your accusations about finances, the "top heavy" statement, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I would have to say, the Word is our center and our worship is based on that, as it should be, imo.
And herein is my key disagreement with them. They have made the "teaching of the Word of God" an "it" and not the Author of the Word of God.
Their main focus is on the teaching of the Word of God instead of on The Lord Jesus Christ, the Author of the Word of God.
Prove it.
Edited to correct myself! 
< Message edited by Kat_D -- 4/1/2008 9:31:43 PM >
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
I weep for those who won't experience this because they have been deceived.
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 9:53:15 PM
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DayStar43
Posts: 40
Joined: 3/31/2007
From: Texas
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Henrietta Mears wrote a book, What The Bible Is All About. Genesis, she states, portrays Jesus Christ, our Creator God; Exodus portrays Jesus Christ, our Passover Lamb; Leviticus portrays Jesus Christ, our Sacrifice for Sin; Deuteronomy portrays Jesus Christ, our True Prophet; Joshua portrays Jesus Christ , Captain of our Salvation; Judges & Ruth portray our Deliver Judge and our Kinsman-Redeemer; and so forth and so on.
If Jesus Christ is portrayed through every book of the Bible, please explain to me how the teaching of the Word is not teaching Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is taught by all the Calvary Chapel pastors I've heard who have used the Bible as their text.
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 9:59:11 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MusicianDad
While it's true that Calvary Chapel denies being a denomination, since they have taken a name for themselves, beyond merely Christian, and follow very closely the teachings and practices of one man, Pastor Chuck, they are by definition a denomination. I guess I'm from the "if it walks. swims and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck" school of thought.
Also, I didn't say they are secretive, I said insular (in my experience). It's not a slam against the denomination, just an observation. I know many fruit bearing Christians who are hard core Chapelmentarians and it's obvious that God is at work through them and their church.
They are very much a denomination, even tho they deny it.
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 10:13:29 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
Just sharing my personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that I don't think it would help at all if I tried to explain to you
Did I say there was anything wrong with that? I don't think I did. I also have no idea what you mean by it wouldn't help if you tried to explain it to me. What was your point in saying that?... or am I just supposed to guess? BTW, placing a smiley face after a statement like that doesn't make it sound any sweeter.
Responding to the issues you brought up and I responded to would be the right thing to do...such as your accusations about finances, the "top heavy" statement, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I would have to say, the Word is our center and our worship is based on that, as it should be, imo.
And herein is my key disagreement with them. They have made the "teaching of the Word of God" an "it" and not the Author of the Word of God.
Their main focus is on the teaching of the Word of God instead of on The Lord Jesus Christ, the Author of the Word of God.
Prove it.
Edited to correct myself!
Kat_D, I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I only wish that you had looked at my first post on this thread and noted the good I said about CC and not been, apparently,so defensive about what I perceived are negatives. And please note...I say what I perceive.
This is a discussion. I am sorry if someone disagrees with someone's perception of CC or, part thereof. But that is a reality and part of forums.
I would encourage you to go back and read my first post and note the postive I said. It is alright if I have some disagreements with some of what they emphasize/do.
I mean it really is OK. God give us freedom to disagree.
I am curious, have you ever been to any other church/denomination to compare with?
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 10:21:05 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DayStar43
Henrietta Mears wrote a book, What The Bible Is All About. Genesis, she states, portrays Jesus Christ, our Creator God; Exodus portrays Jesus Christ, our Passover Lamb; Leviticus portrays Jesus Christ, our Sacrifice for Sin; Deuteronomy portrays Jesus Christ, our True Prophet; Joshua portrays Jesus Christ , Captain of our Salvation; Judges & Ruth portray our Deliver Judge and our Kinsman-Redeemer; and so forth and so on.
If Jesus Christ is portrayed through every book of the Bible, please explain to me how the teaching of the Word is not teaching Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is taught by all the Calvary Chapel pastors I've heard who have used the Bible as their text.
If they indeed do focus on Christ in each of the Books of the Bible, but do they always?
I'm not looking at what Mrs. Mears (Miss?) says, I am seeing through the eyes of experience of many, many years of being in C.C.
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 10:38:34 PM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 122
Joined: 3/29/2008
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[/quote]
I mean it really is OK. God give us freedom to disagree.
[/quote]
Which is exactly what I had to remind people of all the time when I was at Calvary Chapel. There seemed to be very little discernment between essentials and nonessentials and almost no awareness that Christians of good conscience can disagree over debatable issues and still be within orthodoxy.
_____________________________
Heartland Rocks!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 10:43:36 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3397
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
Just sharing my personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that I don't think it would help at all if I tried to explain to you
Did I say there was anything wrong with that? I don't think I did. I also have no idea what you mean by it wouldn't help if you tried to explain it to me. What was your point in saying that?... or am I just supposed to guess? BTW, placing a smiley face after a statement like that doesn't make it sound any sweeter.
Responding to the issues you brought up and I responded to would be the right thing to do...such as your accusations about finances, the "top heavy" statement, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I would have to say, the Word is our center and our worship is based on that, as it should be, imo.
And herein is my key disagreement with them. They have made the "teaching of the Word of God" an "it" and not the Author of the Word of God.
Their main focus is on the teaching of the Word of God instead of on The Lord Jesus Christ, the Author of the Word of God.
Prove it.
Edited to correct myself!
Kat_D, I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I only wish that you had looked at my first post on this thread and noted the good I said about CC and not been, apparently,so defensive about what I perceived are negatives. And please note...I say what I perceive.
I saw the positives you named in your first post and I appreciated them. You then proceeded to name areas where CC was wrong or off. I was in no way defensive...I simply rebutted the accusations you made. As I said, I've worked there for several years and have a pretty good knowledge about the way things are done. Btw, you said that you "perceived" these things to be this way. That to me is a rather weak basis for your accusations and means that you have no real knowledge that they are true.
quote:
This is a discussion. I am sorry if someone disagrees with someone's perception of CC or, part thereof. But that is a reality and part of forums.
I would encourage you to go back and read my first post and note the postive I said. It is alright if I have some disagreements with some of what they emphasize/do.
Again, I tried to carry on a discussion, but you simply said "there was no use in trying to explain anything to me." Where can one go from there? You pretty much ended the discussion with that sentence.
quote:
I am curious, have you ever been to any other church/denomination to compare with?
I have been to other churches to visit. But, you don't leave a place that satisfies you spiritually, feeds you the Word of God in it's entirety, is doctrinally sound, and continually draws you closer the the Lord Jesus Christ. Who could ask for more?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
I weep for those who won't experience this because they have been deceived.
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/1/2008 11:41:16 PM
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gaylel1
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
Status: offline
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Oh Boy, Oh Boy, all the CC Haters are coming out of the woodwork here... 
Again, Cherished by God, you are misinformed about CC. They are not a demonination, and their docerinal statement which I mentioned a few posts back that they are not against denominations, but they feel that denominations starts division which is not needed in the body. They do try to promote unity in the body of Christ.
And their focus in the word through Jesus Christ.
An example is the upcoming Somebody Loves You Crusade, which is going to be here in So Cal. There are AG's, Forsquare, Baptist and other denominations are in support of the movement. The same can be said about Harvest, which Greg Laurie, another CC pastor encourages other churches to particiapte.
I'm not trying to be defensive and I'm sorry your experience was bad at a CC, but like I said before not all CC or its pastors are like that.
And like Kat, I've been to other churches where the music was good, but the word was not docertinally sound at all. And this includes WOF churches and churches that are involved in the prosperity movement.
_____________________________
Come visit me at http://www.myspace.com/Gaylel121
or http://www.gayleplace.blogspot.com....
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 12:01:35 AM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MusicianDad
I mean it really is OK. God give us freedom to disagree.
Which is exactly what I had to remind people of all the time when I was at Calvary Chapel. There seemed to be very little discernment between essentials and nonessentials and almost no awareness that Christians of good conscience can disagree over debatable issues and still be within orthodoxy.
Amen...Thank you!! It is a very dangerous area when we think we have a corner on the truth....
CC tends to think themselves "superior" in having a "lock" on truth while looking down on other denominations... because they pride themselves on "the teaching of the Word of God.
Again...just my personal experience...
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 12:25:03 AM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Responding to the issues you brought up and I responded to would be the right thing to do...such as your accusations about finances, the "top heavy" statement, etc. I would have to say, the Word is our center and our worship is based on that, as it should be, imo.
Edited to correct myself!
I saw the positives you named in your first post and I appreciated them. You then proceeded to name areas where CC was wrong or off. I was in no way defensive...I simply rebutted the accusations you made. As I said, I've worked there for several years and have a pretty good knowledge about the way things are done. Btw, you said that you "perceived" these things to be this way. That to me is a rather weak basis for your accusations and means that you have no real knowledge that they are true.
Again, I tried to carry on a discussion, but you simply said "there was no use in trying to explain anything to me." Where can one go from there? You pretty much ended the discussion with that sentence.
But, you see, Kat, I did not respond to this thread to debate you I responded to give my personal opinion about C.C...
I chose not to respond to you because, in my heart of hearts, I knew it would turn into a debate/contention and be of no profit, indeed, that it might harm and be hurtful.
I am deeply saddened that you say I was accusing. That is exactlly why I posted "I perceived". I posted from my personal experience and you cannot deny that - you were not there at the CC's I attended, you are not me, you do not have my background.
BTW, I do have knowledge, that what I posted from my knowledge and experience are true, from my experience.
I will not be a cookie-cutter agreeing with everything CC does or is as they will not be with me.
It is wonderful to be an individual with my own views, perceptions and the blessed Holy Spirit to be my guide! As they and you are also! God make us all different.
Will you and CC not allow us to be different without attacking our views just because we do not agree with everything you believe?
And Kat, it really is ok if people disagree with you....
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 12:46:20 AM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 122
Joined: 3/29/2008
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Calvary haters? Not spouting the party line doesn't make me a hater. Personal invective is a sighn of a weak argument.
As far as "feeling" that Calvary isn't a denomination, anyone is entitled to feel any way thay want, that doesn't change the facts. Neither does an edict from the head of the church.
I'm reminded of the church I was brought up in (another self-proclaimed non-denominational denomination), which often said that they had no creed. That in itself was a creed. Too funny.
_____________________________
Heartland Rocks!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 1:31:26 AM
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gaylel1
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
Status: offline
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quote:
Amen...Thank you!! It is a very dangerous area when we think we have a corner on the truth....
CC tends to think themselves "superior" in having a "lock" on truth while looking down on other denominations... because they pride themselves on "the teaching of the Word of God.
Again...just my personal experience...
Cherish By God,
Again, I tend to disgaree with you. No one, Calvary Chapel, even those prosperity pimps do not have the lock on the truth. They do not and again do not look down on other denominations. Just because you had a bad exeperience, it does not mean the entire CC family is not that.
And it hurts me as a fellow sister in Christ that you feel that people in CC is so superior--just because they go through the bible--I mean, come one here, people need to be following the word and the word does not have to be sugarcoated.
_____________________________
Come visit me at http://www.myspace.com/Gaylel121
or http://www.gayleplace.blogspot.com....
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 1:40:32 AM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
Oh Boy, Oh Boy, all the CC Haters are coming out of the woodwork here...
Again, Cherished by God, you are misinformed about CC. They are not a demonination, and their docerinal statement which I mentioned a few posts back that they are not against denominations, but they feel that denominations starts division which is not needed in the body. They do try to promote unity in the body of Christ.
And their focus in the word through Jesus Christ.
An example is the upcoming Somebody Loves You Crusade, which is going to be here in So Cal. There are AG's, Forsquare, Baptist and other denominations are in support of the movement. The same can be said about Harvest, which Greg Laurie, another CC pastor encourages other churches to particiapte.
I'm not trying to be defensive and I'm sorry your experience was bad at a CC, but like I said before not all CC or its pastors are like that.
And like Kat, I've been to other churches where the music was good, but the word was not docertinally sound at all. And this includes WOF churches and churches that are involved in the prosperity movement.
Gayle,
That is sooo not true! And that is very offensive that you would assume that I am a CC hater! Frankly, that is repulsive and very judgemental to me.
And I am not misinformed about CC, as I have attended CC for years probably longer than you.
This is one of the exact reasons I choose not to go to CC anymore. Because they are judgemental.
Of all the churches I have attended, they are one of the most divisive churces I have ever attended because they put themselves up on a pedestal for the most part and look down on other churches or other Christians and judge others just because they do not attend CC and dare to disagree with them on some issues.
Gayle, I have probably attended CC alot longer than you. I am not misinformed, again, I speak from experience. Please stop judging me. That is probably the main reason I left Calvary Chapel. It is because they are soooo judgemental of anyone that does not believe their "doctrine" or follow what they believe.
Your's and Kat's posts only confirm what I already knew in my heart.
"Oh boy, all the CC haters are coming out of the woodwork here" - Gayle, you claim that I hate CC. That is so offensive and I deeply regret that you judge my heart like that....
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 6:47:19 AM
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Propitiation
Posts: 41
Joined: 6/18/2007
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so........p.prophetic.... we got two pages full of discussion yet we haven't gotten a clear answer on what you wanted to discuss. lol
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 9:49:32 AM
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gaylel1
Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
Status: offline
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Cherished By God, I'm sorry that you were offended, however, I'm going to stand by my comments also because you were judging a church because of your experience which not everyone is judgemental at all.
There are other churches other than CC that are judgemental too, but no one speaks about them at all. Some baptist churches are judgemental as well as some penecostal churches, word of faith and the list goes on and on. In fact, the entire christian community is judgemental, you, I or the person accross the street.
I'm bowing out of this discussion too because it does not make any sense arguing neither. It seems like CC'ers are not welcomed on Crosswalk because of views of a few.
_____________________________
Come visit me at http://www.myspace.com/Gaylel121
or http://www.gayleplace.blogspot.com....
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 10:10:15 AM
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earthless
Posts: 4738
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Propitiation
so........p.prophetic.... we got two pages full of discussion yet we haven't gotten a clear answer on what you wanted to discuss. lol
Yeah, we have been waiting for that answer for a while now.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Calvary Chapel! - 4/2/2008 10:18:32 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Hello! Do you want me to hold them accountable for every word that they speak from the pulpit? For it is written: | | |
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