RE: Calvary Chapel! (Full Version)

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lw9 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 10:48:35 AM)

quote:

prophetica/p.prophetic: Do you want me to hold them accountable for every word that they speak from the pulpit?


That doesn't answer the question. You stated that YOU wanted to discuss CC and it's pastors. If you didn't start this thread to do that just that and are not willing to participate per your own OP, then I have no choice but to wonder about your motive or reasons for starting this thread.

The room is waiting. You have the floor.



earthless -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 12:02:25 PM)

*grabs some popcorn*



cybrjewls -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 12:21:01 PM)

<<lw9>>I have no choice but to wonder about your motive or reasons for starting this thread.<<lw9>>



Consecrated2God -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 12:22:43 PM)

My dad is a Calvary Chapel pastor. I think he's pretty cool. [:)]

I was raised in a Calvary Chapel, and even though we aren't in that church anymore I think they are one of the better ones out there.

The denomination issue I always think is a non-issue. I don't see denominations as evil. My mom and I get into that discussion from time to time--she gets very offended if I slip and call CC a denomination. I don't mean any defense--it's just sometimes hard to come up with an alternative word to call it. She prefers the world "church". Okay, but sometimes it's hard to tell by using the word "church" if I mean all the Calvary Chapels or just her particular one.

In the CC I was raised, the pastor really didn't preach through the Bible like Chuck Smith did. He liked to stay in Daniel, Ezekial, Matthew 25, and Revelation. [:)] Bible prophesy is his specialty. Okay, everyone's got their favorite parts of the Bible, but that was one of the reasons we left--we were feeling like he didn't preach the rest of the Bible.

Like I said, though, doctrinally they are one of the better ones. I agree with just about everything in their doctrine, with a few minor exceptions. They are a good church, and they are not a cult. They may do some things a little differently than other churches when it comes to church administration, but it's in the bound of Christian liberty so I have no problem with that.



earthless -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 12:27:32 PM)

prophetica,

Can you please just answer the question?



Consecrated2God -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 12:36:10 PM)

Oh, I just wanted to specify that the Calvary Chapel I grew up in is not the same church that my dad pastors. He started his church a few years ago, while my husband was in Bible College studying to be an Assemblies of God pastor. I've never regularly attended my dad's church, just visited it a couple of times.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 12:50:12 PM)

After re-reading all my posts, I do confess I was judging CC's in general from a prolonged negative experience at the first CC I went to. Frankly, there was spiritual abuse there.

That church eventually split - the whole thing was horrible. The pastor of that church ended up moving to another town and Chuck Smith would not let him be associated with CC movement. And I believe Chuck Smith would not allow his own son to be associated with CC movement either, although I stand corrected on that. I would like to know what happen in that case if anyone can tell me.

So, I apologize to all.

AT the same time, I do not like being called a CC hater. Nothing could be further from the truth. I love CC's. I would still be going to one but the drive became too long due to traffic. That is the honest truth.

Regarding my statement that I believe they are top heavy, I still believe that but will add in comparison to churches that have a more democratic way of running a church such as a SBC.

I know they adore the Lord Jesus Christ and, as I said in my first post their rewards will be far more superior to mine.

I still do believe they are a denomination even tho they say they are not.

At the church I mention above, there was a very superior attitude and a looking down on other churches, a divisive attitude but again that was only at that church.

Sorry guys and gals for judging[&:]

BTW I was at that same church on Good Friday. Their new pastor is wonderful and many people that left, have come back.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 1:02:07 PM)

Just one more thing. I do wish they would teach more on interpersonal relationships.

At the 2 CCs I attended there is horrible, relationship splitting gossip and slander going on. Very, very hurtful.

And yet I don't hear it being addressed from the pulpit except perhaps briefly.



lw9 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 1:55:08 PM)

quote:

<<lw9>>I have no choice but to wonder about your motive or reasons for starting this thread.<<lw9>>


In case you haven't noticed yet, you're in a public forum and have chosen to start a public thread. If you're attempting to say that we can do or say anything we please and no one should question it, then you're on the wrong planet entirely, not to mention reading the wrong bible. Anyone reading your public thread and public messages has the right to ask valid questions of you.

True, you don't have to answer the question, but by choosing to give dodgy non-answers and not participate in a topic you started and claimed you want to discuss, then you bring the valid questions raised upon yourself.

We're not children anymore. There are consequences to our actions, words, and behaviors.



cybrjewls -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 2:10:52 PM)

We are derailing this thread already. Let's try to stay on topic, OK?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

<<lw9>>I have no choice but to wonder about your motive or reasons for starting this thread.<<lw9>>


In case you haven't noticed yet, you're in a public forum and have chosen to start a public thread. If you're attempting to say that we can do or say anything we please and no one should question it, then you're on the wrong planet entirely, not to mention reading the wrong bible. Anyone reading your public thread and public messages has the right to ask valid questions of you.

True, you don't have to answer the question, but by choosing to give dodgy non-answers and not participate in a topic you started and claimed you want to discuss, then you bring the valid questions raised upon yourself.

We're not children anymore. There are consequences to our actions, words, and behaviors.



lw9 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 2:31:38 PM)

quote:

.prophetic.: We are derailing this thread already. Let's try to stay on topic, OK?


The topic of the thread is this:

quote:

prophetica/.p.prophetica/.prophetic.: I would like to discuss the ministry of the Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, California. Pastors Chuck Smith, Raul R., Greg Laurie...


Asking you for clarification of what it is you wanted to discuss is not derailing the thread.



earthless -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 3:42:30 PM)

Prophetica,

Can you please just answer the question? And why the name change?



map4 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 6:09:57 PM)

.prophetic,

I think I see what you want to discuss. And you don't even have to say anything for it to be done. Am I right?



MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 8:40:12 PM)

On the denomination thing, I think it's very important for the Church to be truthful. If a denomination goes around proclaiming they are not a denomination, how are they going to be taken seriously on more important issues, like the truth of the Gospel?



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 9:55:28 PM)

Calvary Chapels do not preach the whole counsel of God, they preach their own version of it. They preach what pleases them and usually the party line of Pastor Chuck or Jon Courson.

Calvary Chapel ministers are taught on purpose to be vague, disengenous in contraversial issues. While they boast in not seeking numbers, the training to ignore or resist dealing with contraversial issues is done so that they my gain in numbers.

Calvary Chapel ministry is not teaching the whole word of God simply because the Pastor decides what is contraversial and therefore what is divisive. Wherefore when the pastor speaks he will ignore those doctrines that are clearly stated and can be addressed in the text but instead he will sidestep them and feed you something that wont make you want to walk out the door.

I do wish this was not true but its in Calvary Distinctives written by Chuck Smith himself.
Pg 57-59.

Calvary stays away from the 'name' of contraversy, therefore they refuse to call themselves a denomination even though they are clearly one. You can quote them as saying they are not, but that is only because of the disengenous method of trying to be unified instead of telling all the truth. Pastor Chuck teaches his young ministers that if they become in volved in Reformed theology, or involved in contraversial issues they will loose half their crowd. So to remain pleasantly inert in teaching the bible so no one gets upset, its important to become devotional when the text might lead to a doctrinal stance that "they feel" shouldnt be taught because it might create division doctrinally.

The reality is in some cases that the pastors were so ill trained, they were unable to handle theological issues comfortably or with enough wisdom, Pastor Chuck simply taught them to sidetrack those teachings in favor of other friendlier teachings. Its calvary's way of being seeker sensitive as well as preserving congregations lead by men who could not answer valid biblical questions beyond Chucks own teaching tapes.

Yes, I attend Calvary Chapel and have done so the last 5 years and I was married in one.
The realities of this denomination are what they are. If you dont like it, well move on.

IN a very real sense Pastor Chucks own limitations are spread to his young ministers. He had trouble with Gods sovereignty so in turn all pastors are to take the route Pastor Chuck did.
He saw that denominationalism was a trouble spot so he trained his ministers to avoid 'title, names, doctrines or anything' that would turn off people. Not only did this ministry as a whole turn from contraversy but from good solid biblical teaching as well. In order to protect the ministry and its leaders from problems a strong party line was propogated and is instilled in all young leaders.


John



MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/2/2008 10:55:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace


IN a very real sense Pastor Chucks own limitations are spread to his young ministers. He had trouble with Gods sovereignty so in turn all pastors are to take the route Pastor Chuck did.
He saw that denominationalism was a trouble spot so he trained his ministers to avoid 'title, names, doctrines or anything' that would turn off people. Not only did this ministry as a whole turn from contraversy but from good solid biblical teaching as well. In order to protect the ministry and its leaders from problems a strong party line was propogated and is instilled in all young leaders.


John


Man, that is really interesting. Answers a lot of questions. I always wondered why the preaching was so shallow. I'd read my footnotes in McArthers Study Bilbe on whatever scripture the pastor was preaching on in five minutes and then sit there for fourty minutes waiting to see how much of it he'd get. I can't figure out what the Chapelmentarians are talking about when they crow about the awesome teaching?



Consecrated2God -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/3/2008 7:20:30 AM)

I disagree that they are taught on purpose to be vague. I grew up listening to Chuck Smith's sermons on tape, and they were very good, expository sermons. He's the only person I've ever heard preach through Leviticus and make it interesting! Gayle Erwin is another Calvary Chapel pastor that I've listened to that is very deep. His series about the nature of God is so good--I learned so much from that and I still go back to that sermon a decade later to understand many things about God.

I do agree that sometimes the pastors are not adequately trained. I love my dad to death and believe he is doing a great work of God, but he could have used some time in Bible College. I think it would have been very useful to him.



gaylel1 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/3/2008 9:43:00 AM)

We do have a bible college in Murrietta, Ca for anyone who wants to know here...and pastors are trained there.

But just because a person goes to bible college it does not mean that you are a great pastor. There are great ministers who never went to bible college, yet they are great leaders.




Gloryandgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/3/2008 9:13:33 PM)

Im not a dissenting upset calvary chapelite, Im just saying that the way in which the denomination as a whole has taken on doctrinal issues is disengenous. They are clearly arminian but wont use the word. They are clearly anti-reformed but wont say so. They are clearly denominational but act like they have a group of 4. They avoid anything that might cause them to have to prove their doctrines with more than anectodal answers on the to every man an answer program.

I happen to dearly love the men in Calvary Chapel, and I happen to love them in a way that is not party line love but pure-conscience love.

I dont go to Calvary because my pastor agrees with every thing I say, or vice versa, I go there because he is the most Godly genuine believer I know.
He deserves my faithfulness and love and all I can do to help him in service to the congregation which I do.

John



MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/3/2008 10:01:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1

We do have a bible college in Murrietta, Ca for anyone who wants to know here...and pastors are trained there.





And be advised that this is a non-acredited school. Virtually none of the credits earned at Murrietta will be trandferable should you decide to go to graduate school. I know several young people who graduated from Murrietta and were unable to parley that schooling into a meaningful job. If you want to become a Chapelmentarian pastor or missionary, then I think it's a good fit. Otherwise, there are several outstanding Christian universities in So Cal (ex. Azuza, Biola, Point Loma, Masters) that can equip you for the ministry or a profession.



gaylel1 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/4/2008 12:53:33 AM)

Yes, but most of these universities (Except for APU and Masters) are into docterine now that is liberal.



TheosCentric -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/4/2008 6:32:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1

Yes, but most of these universities (Except for APU and Masters) are into docterine now that is liberal.


I don't think Biola is into liberal theology and there are a host of good Christian schools around the country who still teach the Bible, not doctrine.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/4/2008 7:47:37 AM)

quote:

They are clearly arminian but wont use the word.


In my experience, they aren't armenian, but the aren't calvinist, either. I think their views on that issue are very balanced.



MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/4/2008 7:52:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1

Yes, but most of these universities (Except for APU and Masters) are into docterine now that is liberal.



Even if you exclude Point Loma and Biola, you've still got two excellent universities in the L.A. area that not only teach theology, but a full spectrum of libetal arts and professional studies. Try getting any job that requires a BA/BS after graduating from Murrietta and you'll be in for a rude awakening.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/4/2008 8:44:42 PM)

quote:

In my experience, they aren't armenian, but the aren't calvinist, either. I think their views on that issue are very balanced.


Hello Consecrated:

Yes I know they hold some middle position in their own minds and by their own claims but is simply a false representation of their arminian doctrine. They are what is called semi-pelagian.

If your pastor was dealing with biblical doctrine that has been around for a while in terms of introducing them to it when the texts relate you would have been privy to such a term.

If youve been on the calvy-armin board youll see there is no middle ground. As a matter of fact if I were to say, well pastor so-and-so let me introduce the doctrines of the reformed faith to them in a 10 week systematic study would he let me? I doubt it? If theyre actually balanced the congregation should know what doctrine Johnathan Edwards or John Bunyan held, after they quote them or speak of them. If they dont, what a shame!

The point is, Calvary is simply a semi-pelagian teacher of doctrine, they hold to presuppositions that are in fact unbiblical. Pastor Chuck stumbled over theses things early on and to this day, you will not hear AW Pink preached as a solid theologian from Calvary pulpits. Why Because Pastor Chuck 'threw the book' and gave up on the doctrine of Gods Sovereignty as it relates to election and predestination. Thats fine if he dont believe it, thats fine if he wont preach it, but its not fine to say its not true or that other folks shouldnt be exposed to it and learn from men who dont stumble over those issues.

Calvary is no different from the pentacostals or baptists when it comes to presenting their own doctrines and propogating their own belief platforms.

John



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