RE: Calvary Chapel!

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Consecrated2God -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/5/2008 8:22:48 AM)
quote: If youve been on the calvy-armin board youll see there is no middle ground. I've been on it, although not in a few years. There is plenty of middle ground between "You can lose your salvation" and "God chooses people to go to hell." Anyway, getting into that would be off topic. My Calvary Chapel upbringing included the believe that your salvation is secure--they preached "Once saved always saved" but they also preached free will. I do now believe that it's possible to choose to not be a Christian after you once were, but that's something relatively new in my beliefs, and did not come from being raised CC.

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/5/2008 3:09:14 PM)
Since the thread is CC and not their doctines per'se, Ill not go farther than I have in only mentioning them as a boundry and characteristic of what and who they are. Calvarys are different from one another, some are very conservative and others are charismatic through and through. Some are very expositional while others are expositional upon the pastors favorite topics. They are a group of believers that in my opinion have the most to offer and as far as I am concerned should be a Joshua and Caleb kind of ministry. But as time goes by they seem to steer away from exploits and stay around the camp. The old hippies and its generation the 40-60 yr olds are the dominant leadership age group and they attract that age group. While the gen xers the 20-40s age group flock seem to love calvary they also seem unchallenged by the calvary leadership. Calvary also has its own limitations to ministry. Notice they only have one evangelist that they pour all their efforts to promote. Is there only one evangelist? The point being its a pastors denomination, if youre a calvary pastor you have some identity with its leadership, if not you are a black sheep, they in fact really dont know what to do with you if your not a called pastor. They have no training for evangelists, Dont tell me Murietta bible college because you cant name one evangelist promoted among CC that came from there. They have no prophets or apostles either. They preach these offices but have no idea what to do if your called to be something other than a CC pastor. Again they train evangelists on the level of WOTM or Evan explosion or but not evangelists on the level of Mass crusade or evangelists that have a vision larger than a few young people who want to experiment with trying to street witness. Where are their prophets? Should they just come out and say we dont beleive in them anymore? They should in my opinion, because they cannot get past the fact that a prophet is not a pastor and for the most part the CC pastors fear that to have a prophet in the midst is to sign up for week by week damage control because carnal sheep and unsaved psuedo-christians inhabiting the pews will make his life hell. He knows this and doesnt want to be sidetracked from his own agenda. You would think for all that back-slapping they do among one another for expositional bible teaching that evangelists, prophets and apostles would arise and work side by side. But wait? could it be that if these other offices arose the calvary leadership would have to share decision making? Ewww thats no good, why? Because as I said calvary pastors have clout, not callings, giftings or wisdom. Each CC is independent enough that it can become what it wants and thats great and its also flexible enough that CC's are able to copycat each other and everything anyone says without looking 'copy paste' ministry. As far as I am concerned CC has a looooooooooooong way to go to call itself biblical expositional, bible practicing new testament churches. What you see in many of them is a bapticostal conservative fellowship where tired worldly baby boomers can settle nicely into unchallenging fellowships and enjoy sermons, church, people, games, potlucks and even toss some money towards Gospel for asia now an again. there is a great deal of great things God is doing in CC and I dont want anyone to think otherwise, but I will say vast improvement is needed in leadership, doctrine, practice and growing up future leaders. John

MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/6/2008 7:15:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace What you see in many of them is a bapticostal conservative fellowship where tired worldly baby boomers can settle nicely into unchallenging fellowships and enjoy sermons, church, people, games, potlucks and even toss some money towards Gospel for asia now an again. Pretty much true, except for the potluck part. Around the Chapelmentarians I know, you might as well say the F-word as say potluck. It's potbless. Not that they tend to be legalistic, or anything.

Consecrated2God -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/6/2008 8:30:41 PM)
We always called them "Carry-ins". [:)]

Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/6/2008 9:06:53 PM)
Oh, forgot about this thread, but it looks like you're really fishing and scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're reduced to arguing over whether or not CC's are a denomination and what they call their potlucks on page 4. Guess that just proves that in a scant few pages you've pretty much covered all the dirt there is on CC's. Quite a contrast between the threads on the false teaching churches that are 100's of pages long and still going strong...lots to talk about there. CC's not so much! Does my heart proud.[sm=nosestuckup.gif]

betterisoneday -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:35:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kat_D Oh, forgot about this thread, but it looks like you're really fishing and scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're reduced to arguing over whether or not CC's are a denomination and what they call their potlucks on page 4. Guess that just proves that in a scant few pages you've pretty much covered all the dirt there is on CC's. Quite a contrast between the threads on the false teaching churches that are 100's of pages long and still going strong...lots to talk about there. CC's not so much! Does my heart proud.[sm=nosestuckup.gif] Wow, you know I had considered attending another CC after I move, since they can't all be like the ones I have been to in the past. Just like I'm sure there's a couple good SBC churches somewhere. However, after that post I need to rethink that consideration, or at least ask where you live. I've met stupid, disgusting pastors who wanted to edit the Bible and add their rules in every type of church I've been to, CC isn't an exception.

earthless -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:38:27 AM)
Exactly - where there are humans there will be problems. There is no perfect church and if you do find one, don't attend it.. you will mess it up.

Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:43:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: betterisoneday quote: ORIGINAL: Kat_D Oh, forgot about this thread, but it looks like you're really fishing and scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're reduced to arguing over whether or not CC's are a denomination and what they call their potlucks on page 4. Guess that just proves that in a scant few pages you've pretty much covered all the dirt there is on CC's. Quite a contrast between the threads on the false teaching churches that are 100's of pages long and still going strong...lots to talk about there. CC's not so much! Does my heart proud.[sm=nosestuckup.gif] Wow, you know I had considered attending another CC after I move, since they can't all be like the ones I have been to in the past. Just like I'm sure there's a couple good SBC churches somewhere. However, after that post I need to rethink that consideration, or at least ask where you live. I've met stupid, disgusting pastors who wanted to edit the Bible and add their rules in every type of church I've been to, CC isn't an exception. Wow! Stupid and disgusting pastors....harsh. I have countered a lot of the false teaching pastors on this board but have never felt the need to call them names like that. I'm sorry you're so jaded, it must be rough to live like that! Wouldn't want to be around when you get mad enough to use that gun you're totin'![:D] There are many good churches out there...CC's are not for everyone. I suggest you find one that fits you and go to it. [sm=thumbsup.gif]

earthless -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:51:13 AM)
Kat, I attended an AoG church yesterday morning.. plan on going back this Sunday morning to visit again. And people say God doesn't have a sense of humor. [;)][8D]

Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:55:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthless Kat, I attended an AoG church yesterday morning.. plan on going back this Sunday morning to visit again. And people say God doesn't have a sense of humor. [;)][8D] or that you're narrow minded![:D]

earthless -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:58:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kat_D quote: ORIGINAL: earthless Kat, I attended an AoG church yesterday morning.. plan on going back this Sunday morning to visit again. And people say God doesn't have a sense of humor. [;)][8D] or that you're narrow minded![:D] Maybe they will change my unbelieving ways and then I can become "Spirit-filled!". [sm=hammerhead.gif]

betterisoneday -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 2:16:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kat_D quote: ORIGINAL: betterisoneday quote: ORIGINAL: Kat_D Oh, forgot about this thread, but it looks like you're really fishing and scraping the bottom of the barrel if you're reduced to arguing over whether or not CC's are a denomination and what they call their potlucks on page 4. Guess that just proves that in a scant few pages you've pretty much covered all the dirt there is on CC's. Quite a contrast between the threads on the false teaching churches that are 100's of pages long and still going strong...lots to talk about there. CC's not so much! Does my heart proud.[sm=nosestuckup.gif] Wow, you know I had considered attending another CC after I move, since they can't all be like the ones I have been to in the past. Just like I'm sure there's a couple good SBC churches somewhere. However, after that post I need to rethink that consideration, or at least ask where you live. I've met stupid, disgusting pastors who wanted to edit the Bible and add their rules in every type of church I've been to, CC isn't an exception. Wow! Stupid and disgusting pastors....harsh. I have countered a lot of the false teaching pastors on this board but have never felt the need to call them names like that. I'm sorry you're so jaded, it must be rough to live like that! Wouldn't want to be around when you get mad enough to use that gun you're totin'![:D] There are many good churches out there...CC's are not for everyone. I suggest you find one that fits you and go to it. [sm=thumbsup.gif] Well, would you prefer I use cussing to describe them??? Never been called jaded before, have to add that to my list....[8\|] I do go to decent churches when I'm not on shift, my reply was to you saying how "proud" you are of CC. From reading your other posts in this thread it really does come across as you thinking your particular type of church is the best and if everyone knew what was good they'd all attend it. Most churches have good and bad, when it's the pastor who is bad I personally happen to think it's worse. Not all CC are good, not all SBC are good, not all RCC are good, not all MJC are good. And yes, I've been to all those and more, no one should trust a church just because it's a CC. They should treat it the same as any other, comparing what that one congregation teaches to the Bible.

gaylel1 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:00:26 PM)
With that said, and I'm not trying to defend CC, but a bible teaching, bible believing church is best outhere instead of the foolishness which is passed as "Christianity" these days. Look, most of you here (except for some) think that CC is a cult, bad teaching and this is because of either misninformation, or because you have gone to a CC church, people think that all CC's are like that. That is not true at all. CC's never get any respect here because the people in the board feel that we who go to CC churches are not welcomed because we are "different" because we do not believe in prosperity and vice versa. It still does hurt me, though. [:(]

jbow -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/7/2008 11:09:04 PM)
quote: If youve been on the calvy-armin board youll see there is no middle ground. What is that? Link? Thanks, J

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 12:07:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gaylel1 With that said, and I'm not trying to defend CC, but a bible teaching, bible believing church is best outhere instead of the foolishness which is passed as "Christianity" these days. Look, most of you here (except for some) think that CC is a cult, bad teaching and this is because of either misninformation, or because you have gone to a CC church, people think that all CC's are like that. That is not true at all. CC's never get any respect here because the people in the board feel that we who go to CC churches are not welcomed because we are "different" because we do not believe in prosperity and vice versa. It still does hurt me, though. [:(] Gayle: I dont agree with all their teachings but who with a brain ever believes everything said from any pulpit? When I spoke some of what I said about CC it pains me in my heart, I take no pleasure in dealing with the subjects. I love the church I attend, I dearly love my pastor and his wife, the elders and the volunteers. CC has so much to offer the body of Christ, the community the lost and the world itself. CC is no cult, thats just ridiculous, its got that pesky semi-pelagian arminianism that is rampant as the basis of its theological presuppositions, but so do the Assemblies of God, the Pentacostals, the Free will baptist, Charismatics, Vineyards, and on goes the list. I didnt come on here to bash Calvary Chapel, Im saying that there are real issues that need addressed, you (or any of you) can act as though anyone that speaks against the sacred cows of CC are only just dissenting nuts, but that is simply false and ignorant. The truth needs to be spoken, its not going to be spoken among their own and definitely not in their Pastors conferences which I attend, nor in their missions conferences which Ive attended. Calvary believes its own press reports, it thinks it really delivers the whole counsel of God. Calvary only delivers what is agreeable among the pastorate. Thats fine, they can do that. Every denomination does and thats a safe thing to do. But in doing so, the pastorate needs to tell the truth about what they deliver. They deliver Smithism. Dont be upset, its no different than saying Calvinism, or Arminianism, or Protestantism etc. Is Smithism inherently bad? No, there is so much good and blessed in Smithism that its been used of God to bless the nation as a whole with great biblical exposition and godly wisdom. Its helped found a group of men who love Jesus Christ and serve him alone. That is something wonderful to say and its a God-blessed gift to the world. The Puritans preached Calvinism, the Pastors in America preach Smithism. (Not that damnable Joseph Smith) but Chuck Smith. So while I have some strong things to say against some of their doctrines and practices, I say them with respect and love toward a godly group of men whom have decidedly determined to Love Jesus Christ and the flock of God. With all their faults (and they must put up with mine), Gods grace enables us to continue in heartfelt service and a continual Holy Spirit drawing into a closer and closer fellowship with Christ. John

Gloryandgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 12:16:26 AM)
Dear Kat: If you are an example of what Calvary Chapel is, they should thank God for giving them such a blessed gift. Im convinced there are many more like you and all of us do well to imitate your loyalty. John

gaylel1 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 12:54:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace quote: ORIGINAL: gaylel1 With that said, and I'm not trying to defend CC, but a bible teaching, bible believing church is best outhere instead of the foolishness which is passed as "Christianity" these days. Look, most of you here (except for some) think that CC is a cult, bad teaching and this is because of either misninformation, or because you have gone to a CC church, people think that all CC's are like that. That is not true at all. CC's never get any respect here because the people in the board feel that we who go to CC churches are not welcomed because we are "different" because we do not believe in prosperity and vice versa. It still does hurt me, though. [:(] Gayle: I dont agree with all their teachings but who with a brain ever believes everything said from any pulpit? When I spoke some of what I said about CC it pains me in my heart, I take no pleasure in dealing with the subjects. I love the church I attend, I dearly love my pastor and his wife, the elders and the volunteers. quote: CC has so much to offer the body of Christ, the community the lost and the world itself. If you think that CC has so much to offer to the body, why does the body think that they are dangerous? Is is because these people were rejected by denominations because of "being different" because of most of the pastors thought by the public because they cannot lead a church because of the lack of formal education or their personal issues which they had, yet they over came them? CC is no cult, thats just ridiculous, its got that pesky semi-pelagian arminianism that is rampant as the basis of its theological presuppositions, but so do the Assemblies of God, the Pentacostals, the Free will baptist, Charismatics, Vineyards, and on goes the list. If they are not a cult, why do people like Rick Ross and Christians on here want to bash them and making a judgement call instead of finding out for themselves? quote: I didnt come on here to bash Calvary Chapel, Im saying that there are real issues that need addressed, you (or any of you) can act as though anyone that speaks against the sacred cows of CC are only just dissenting nuts, but that is simply false and ignorant. The truth needs to be spoken, its not going to be spoken among their own and definitely not in their Pastors conferences which I attend, nor in their missions conferences which Ive attended. I understand you have a right to your opinion, however, when people say things which are untrue about certian people it hurts me and those who attend CC. Then too, when speaking against the "sacred cows", the same would be said for those who defend people like Jakes, Dollar, Paula White, or even those people in the Emergent Church Movement. In our doctorinal statement, which I hope you read that they are not against denominations, but denominations do divide the body. Sure, everyone is not perfect in CC but everyone is not pefect in the Foursquare Church nor the Baptist Church (NBC, SBC, FGBF), COGIC, PAW or other denomnations. CC is not the only church which have problems, and I'm sure that Chuck did address that.

TheosCentric -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 5:16:30 AM)
I'm going to say that I respect CC churches. I have some good friends who go to a CC church who live right next door to me. They teach the Bible and love Jesus. We have had some good theological discussions, me being reformed, him not. But we recognize that. The main point of disagreement is dispensationalism. We have also recently had a couple leave a CC church and start attending our church (a reformed SBC). Not because of doctrine, but because of driving distance. I would never classify CC as a cult and those who do are just misinformed. There have been some controversies, I understand, with regards to Chuck Smith, Sr. and his son. The son teaching bad doctrine from what I understand. There was the also the controversy where a church in Texas was being told they could use the CC name because they were not teaching according to a CC statement of faith. That smacks of denominationalism, but is perfectly understandable if the church is going to use the CC name. That being said, I believe they teach the Bible, except in the case of dispensationalism.

gaylel1 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 9:22:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheoCentric I'm going to say that I respect CC churches. I have some good friends who go to a CC church who live right next door to me. They teach the Bible and love Jesus. We have had some good theological discussions, me being reformed, him not. But we recognize that. The main point of disagreement is dispensationalism. We have also recently had a couple leave a CC church and start attending our church (a reformed SBC). Not because of doctrine, but because of driving distance. I would never classify CC as a cult and those who do are just misinformed. There have been some controversies, I understand, with regards to Chuck Smith, Sr. and his son. The son teaching bad doctrine from what I understand. There was the also the controversy where a church in Texas was being told they could use the CC name because they were not teaching according to a CC statement of faith. That smacks of denominationalism, but is perfectly understandable if the church is going to use the CC name. That being said, I believe they teach the Bible, except in the case of dispensationalism. This is one of the better posts here on this thread unlike those who has been "bashing" the church. Smith Sr. and Jr had a disagreement because Smith Jr. is involved in the Emergent Church movement, which is a unsound, bibical docterine.

Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 12:39:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace Dear Kat: If you are an example of what Calvary Chapel is, they should thank God for giving them such a blessed gift. Im convinced there are many more like you and all of us do well to imitate your loyalty. John Thank you, John. I don't know why, but that almost made me cry. If there is one thing I strive to be, it is loyal...loyal to my God, my family, and to my pastor and church. I feel that I have been blessed to have such a strong foundation in the Word and have a strong relationship with my God as a result. I will always be grateful to my pastor for that. While I do know CC's are not perfect and that men/pastors are human and can and do make mistakes, the foundation of the CC's is sound and I will stand up for them whenever I have an opportunity.

2shaye -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 12:43:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MusicianDad I was part of a local Calvary Chapel for several years. My experience was that they tended to lean towards legalism and prided themselves on being a "non-denomination", even though they've taken a name for themselves and all follow the teachings of Pastor Chuck. I cannot AMEN this post enough!

2shaye -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 12:46:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod quote: ORIGINAL: Kat_D I would have to say, the Word is our center and our worship is based on that, as it should be, imo. And herein is my key disagreement with them. They have made the "teaching of the Word of God" an "it" and not the Author of the Word of God. Their main focus is on the teaching of the Word of God instead of on The Lord Jesus Christ, the Author of the Word of God. Amen to this one too!

2shaye -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 12:50:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod quote: ORIGINAL: MusicianDad I mean it really is OK. God give us freedom to disagree. Which is exactly what I had to remind people of all the time when I was at Calvary Chapel. There seemed to be very little discernment between essentials and nonessentials and almost no awareness that Christians of good conscience can disagree over debatable issues and still be within orthodoxy. quote: Amen...Thank you!! It is a very dangerous area when we think we have a corner on the truth.... CC tends to think themselves "superior" in having a "lock" on truth while looking down on other denominations... because they pride themselves on "the teaching of the Word of God. Again...just my personal experience... My personal experience as well!

2shaye -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 1:02:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MusicianDad quote: ORIGINAL: gaylel1 We do have a bible college in Murrietta, Ca for anyone who wants to know here...and pastors are trained there. And be advised that this is a non-acredited school. Virtually none of the credits earned at Murrietta will be trandferable should you decide to go to graduate school. I know several young people who graduated from Murrietta and were unable to parley that schooling into a meaningful job. If you want to become a Chapelmentarian pastor or missionary, then I think it's a good fit. Otherwise, there are several outstanding Christian universities in So Cal (ex. Azuza, Biola, Point Loma, Masters) that can equip you for the ministry or a profession. Don't forget Vanguard!

Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 1:25:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gaylel1 Look, most of you here (except for some) think that CC is a cult With all due respect, Gail, you were the one who brought up the cult issue when you said, "I attend a CC affliated church (it is no secret) and that many of you who has this mis-information about CC got it all wrong. People like Rick Ross, who think they are a cult are misinformed about the movement because this movement is the fastest growing movement in Christianity." I responded by saying: "I have to take issue with this. I believe Gayle mentioned that Rick Ross had classified CC as a cult on his site and he actually has not. He has expounded on certain issues that have arisen in the movement that he considers to be controversial which is another aspect of what he does." I don't think anyone called CC a cult in this thread. The only comment I saw was from Musician Dad who said: "On the cult thing, yeah, I think they can come off that way because they are so insular (in my experience)." He in no way said that they were, indeed, a cult. On another note, I certainly understand that some have had what they feel are hurtful experiences in the CC's. That happens in all churches, but one also has to take into consideration that sometimes not all sides are known by those attending a church. Many do not know the inner-workings, and all the circumstances of a specific incident and consequently do not get the whole story. Often gossip runs rampant and that causes some to see things in a biased way. Many also get in the flesh and get angry because of perceived mishandling/slighting because of their own personal insecurities or misinterpretation of something that has been said or taught. After working at my CC for several years, it is extremely difficult to make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. I work in Pastoral Care, and while our desire is to help everyone, this is not always possible. Many people expect unreasonable things from the church. Many expect the church to bail them out of bad circumstances they themselves have made happen. Many expect the church to fix all their issues without taking any personal responsibility or making any personal effort. We try to do our best, but for some, our best is just not good enough. It's a tough job and many do not understand the magnitude of it, but we continue on in the hopes that we are pleasing God and hopefully helping those who truly want the help we have to give.

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