RE: Calvary Chapel! (Full Version)

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2shaye -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 4:32:16 PM)

Gayle and Kat - have either of you ever heard of Ocean Hills and Skip Heitzig? I you have, then you may understand why many of us in south county have a bad taste about CC. HUNDREDS of families were affected.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 4:52:25 PM)

quote:

CC tends to think themselves "superior" in having a "lock" on truth while looking down on other denominations... because they pride themselves on "the teaching of the Word of God.


I think that's an individual thing. Certain people are prone to denominational pride, and I've known people in many denominations that are guilty of that.



Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 5:00:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2shaye

Gayle and Kat - have either of you ever heard of Ocean Hills and Skip Heitzig? I you have, then you may understand why many of us in south county have a bad taste about CC. HUNDREDS of families were affected.


Yes, I have, and I know you and others were hurt by that. I have some knowledge of what happened there, but cannot comment further, but as with everything there are two sides to every story. I pray God heals your hurts and comforts your heart.

ETA: I knew Mark Barrett very well when he was pastor there. As a matter of fact Ocean Hills was one of the churches that helped man a youth crisis hotline I used to help oversee.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 7:47:38 PM)

quote:

If you think that CC has so much to offer to the body, why does the body think that they are dangerous? Is is because these people were rejected by denominations because of "being different" because of most of the pastors thought by the public because they cannot lead a church because of the lack of formal education or their personal issues which they had, yet they over came them?


Hello Gayle:

I dont know of any one that thinks less of Calvary pastors because of what they have come from or their education. Some might, but not me.

Every pastor has come from a god-hating, rebellious heart and a sin nature that wont stop its refusal of Gods word until its crucified. How that rebellious heart played out before they were saved is ancient history. What counts is their walk with Christ now and their faithfulness to Jesus now. There is no pastor, no saint, no evangelist or apostle is worthy of the salvation they have received, the kindness that they have lived under or the love that is shed abroad in their hearts.

Jesus said Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Just how better can anyone dare say he is that makes him more worthy to obtain the salvation of Jesus Christ? If anyone can say he is more worthy of salvation than some ex-druggie Calvary Pastor, Id say that man knows nothing of the salvation of God. Those Calvary Pastors know the pit from which they are digged and the great God and Savior Jesus Christ that forgave them freely of their sins.

John



gaylel1 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 9:46:12 PM)

quote:

I don't think anyone called CC a cult in this thread. The only comment I saw was from Musician Dad who said: "On the cult thing, yeah, I think they can come off that way because they are so insular (in my experience)." He in no way said that they were, indeed, a cult.


I'm sorry if I did offended some on this thread, I really am and may be I did misunderstood, but some of the comments, in my opinion came off that way. With that, I'm sorry if I accused anyone of saying that.

quote:

On another note, I certainly understand that some have had what they feel are hurtful experiences in the CC's. That happens in all churches, but one also has to take into consideration that sometimes not all sides are known by those attending a church. Many do not know the inner-workings, and all the circumstances of a specific incident and consequently do not get the whole story. Often gossip runs rampant and that causes some to see things in a biased way. Many also get in the flesh and get angry because of perceived mishandling/slighting because of their own personal insecurities or misinterpretation of something that has been said or taught.


For example, people here mentioned the Ocean Hills issue--I know for a fact that there are things that we did not understand or what was going on. I'm not going to dwell into it, but I do pray for Skip and his family and forgiven him and moved on.

I just hope the OH congreation had done so too and moved forward as well.



MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 10:00:29 PM)

For my part, I never had a "hurtful experience" at Calvary. Annoying, maybe, but not hurtful. Yes, there was quite a bit of cattiness going on amongst the ladies, but the men were all very, very nice.

As to the cult thing, I've yet to see a Chapelmentarian selling flowers at the airport. [;)]

While many of us struggle with hypocrisy, Calvary Chapel's denial of being a denomination is just way over the top (IMO). If they can't even tell the obvious truth about themselves and what they do, how can any non-believer take them seriously about Biblical truth? Christians need to keep it real. If Chapelmentarians want to continue following Smithism, they should just declare themselves a denomination and have done with it. Otherwise, they should practice what they preach.



Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 10:46:43 PM)

quote:

While many of us struggle with hypocrisy, Calvary Chapel's denial of being a denomination is just way over the top (IMO). If they can't even tell the obvious truth about themselves and what they do, how can any non-believer take them seriously about Biblical truth? Christians need to keep it real. If Chapelmentarians want to continue following Smithism, they should just declare themselves a denomination and have done with it. Otherwise, they should practice what they preach.


Oh give it a rest...we get it!! You've mentioned it several times and to me it's an insignificant matter. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!! And stop with the labels...Chapelmenterians, Smithism...that's just ridiculous.[8|]

Let's put your church under a magnifying glass and see how they'd fare. Again, I think we're doing pretty good if this is the most serious thing people have to talk about! No church is perfect.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 11:01:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1

quote:

I don't think anyone called CC a cult in this thread. The only comment I saw was from Musician Dad who said: "On the cult thing, yeah, I think they can come off that way because they are so insular (in my experience)." He in no way said that they were, indeed, a cult.


I'm sorry if I did offended some on this thread, I really am and may be I did misunderstood, but some of the comments, in my opinion came off that way. With that, I'm sorry if I accused anyone of saying that.


quote:

On another note, I certainly understand that some have had what they feel are hurtful experiences in the CC's. That happens in all churches, but one also has to take into consideration that sometimes not all sides are known by those attending a church. Many do not know the inner-workings, and all the circumstances of a specific incident and consequently do not get the whole story. Often gossip runs rampant and that causes some to see things in a biased way. Many also get in the flesh and get angry because of perceived mishandling/slighting because of their own personal insecurities or misinterpretation of something that has been said or taught.


For example, people here mentioned the Ocean Hills issue--I know for a fact that there are things that we did not understand or what was going on. I'm not going to dwell into it, but I do pray for Skip and his family and forgiven him and moved on.

I just hope the OH congreation had done so too and moved forward as well.


Gayle,

You accused some of us of being Calvary Chapel hater's.

That is a horrible thing to do and is very judgemental....

Do you know our hearts?

I found your conclusion very offensive...For nothing can be further from the truth....



MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 11:10:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

While many of us struggle with hypocrisy, Calvary Chapel's denial of being a denomination is just way over the top (IMO). If they can't even tell the obvious truth about themselves and what they do, how can any non-believer take them seriously about Biblical truth? Christians need to keep it real. If Chapelmentarians want to continue following Smithism, they should just declare themselves a denomination and have done with it. Otherwise, they should practice what they preach.


Oh give it a rest...we get it!! You've mentioned it several times and to me it's an insignificant matter. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!! And stop with the labels...Chapelmenterians, Smithism...that's just ridiculous.[8|]

Let's put your church under a magnifying glass and see how they'd fare. Again, I think we're doing pretty good if this is the most serious thing people have to talk about! No church is perfect.



You may see it as insignificant, I don't. Seems you're like many in your denomination who can't handle a discussion where others don't share your exact views.

As to the magnifying glass thing, go for it. I'm not a denominationalist and so have no denomination to defend. If you want to debate the qualities of my particular church, go ahead. As long as you're not attacking anybody personally, there's no foul, as far as I'm concerned.

One thing that is radically different about where I attend from Calvary Chapel, is our pastor's understanding and support of the idea that we can disagree on non-essentials without getting nasty. Our pastor is also great at delegating jobs to others and letting them run with it. At Calvary it's all about control (in my experience).



Kat_D -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 11:17:15 PM)

quote:

You may see it as insignificant, I don't. Seems you're like many in your denomination who can't handle a discussion where others don't share your exact views.


I have no problem with others disagreeing or not sharing my views, but I do have a problem when someone keeps singing the same old song because they can't come up with anything else.![sm=raisedbrows.gif]



gaylel1 -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/8/2008 11:46:54 PM)

quote:

Gayle,

You accused some of us of being Calvary Chapel hater's.

That is a horrible thing to do and is very judgemental....

Do you know our hearts?

I found your conclusion very offensive...For nothing can be further from the truth....



Cherished By God, I'm not going to fight with you or anyone else with your comments, because this is what the enemy wants, that is divisivness instead of agreeing to disagreeing and leaving it at that. I already became the bigger person to apologise as I had a few posts earlier, but if you want to bring it up again, I pray that you ask God to search your heart along with anyone else who still feel the need that they were offended in spite of an apology.

I'm through talking about it at this point.

I was offended too with some of the comments that were made about CC, because these people are good men. I am a member of a CC church and these people love me as their sister in christ in spite of my racial make up. The pastor and his wife, who I know for a very long time through my late husband and the brothers and sisters there were very very kind to me when he passed away and stood by me. I cultivated good and still have freindships there and these people cared for me and that is why I stayed in the fellowship for all those years because I've felt the love of Jesus through my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yes, there were some opportunities to leave the church, but guess what? with all the false teaching outhere these days in my community, the Lord tugged on me to stay put with people who love me.

At this point I'm leaving this topic and leaving the CW church boards, which some of you may be happy for me to leave anyways. [:(]




MusicianDad -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 12:32:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

I have no problem with others disagreeing or not sharing my views, but I do have a problem when someone keeps singing the same old song because they can't come up with anything else.![sm=raisedbrows.gif]



If you find my posts tiring, you don't have to respond. I certainly believe I have a right to voice my views as oftem as I see fit.

As far as "singing the same old song", the song I'm singing is called "stop the hypocrisy because it hurts the integrity of the Church, and calls into question the truth claims of Christianity". I think tha's a pretty big deal.



2shaye -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 1:03:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2shaye

Gayle and Kat - have either of you ever heard of Ocean Hills and Skip Heitzig? I you have, then you may understand why many of us in south county have a bad taste about CC. HUNDREDS of families were affected.


Yes, I have, and I know you and others were hurt by that. I have some knowledge of what happened there, but cannot comment further, but as with everything there are two sides to every story. I pray God heals your hurts and comforts your heart.

ETA: I knew Mark Barrett very well when he was pastor there. As a matter of fact Ocean Hills was one of the churches that helped man a youth crisis hotline I used to help oversee.

Kat, thank you so much for your kind words. After 3 years, I'm still struggling with DEEP, DEEP hurt. It kinda came up again in this thread and I'd thought I'd "licked" it![&o] My heart races, I feel anger and I want to ....... scream! I was at OH for almost 15 years. That was my home. When the new pastor came and completely dismantled my "home", fired my pastors, brought his VAN LOADS of self proclaiming propaganda groopies, it was more than I could take. We continued to attend since my dh did not feel we were called out. Our non-denom church (with AG roots) was changed to CC, we were dumbstruck! When the new pastor let go of 99% of the elders and put in outside CC elders - who had never stepped foot on our campus before, we could do nothing! I apologize, because yes, it seems I still have some very deep hurt to deal with. I can't possibly FATHOM what the "other side of the story" was.


quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1

people here mentioned the Ocean Hills issue--I know for a fact that there are things that we did not understand or what was going on. I'm not going to dwell into it, but I do pray for Skip and his family and forgiven him and moved on.

I just hope the OH congreation had done so too and moved forward as well.


Gayle, and I know for a fact that unless you were IN THE CHURCH before it was taken over by CC, that you DON'T know the whole story. If all you've heard was the CC side, then you really have no idea what happened!

I personally know of a dozen or more families that have not only left the church, (OH), but have not been able to go to any church due to the deep hurt that one person caused. Many families were displaced and wandered for months. Every single church we visited in the area had heard of the problem and reached out to help facilitate healing, while at the same time, this new pastor continually preached, "if you don't like it here, leave" - yes, that is a direct quote!

Some have forgiven and moved forward, as you've said. Some have backslidden. Some have just moved forward, and I'm ashamed to admit that I'm in this catagory. I'm still trying to forgive - this is so much harder than anything I've ever had to forgive.

For me, this is how I view all CC's - through the eyes of experience with ONE PASTOR.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 1:13:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1

Cherished By God, I'm not going to fight with you or anyone else with your comments, because this is what the enemy wants, that is divisivness instead of agreeing to disagreeing and leaving it at that. I already became the bigger person to apologise as I had a few posts earlier, but if you want to bring it up again, I pray that you ask God to search your heart along with anyone else who still feel the need that they were offended in spite of an apology.

I'm through talking about it at this point.

I was offended too with some of the comments that were made about CC, because these people are good men. I am a member of a CC church and these people love me as their sister in christ in spite of my racial make up. The pastor and his wife, who I know for a very long time through my late husband and the brothers and sisters there were very very kind to me when he passed away and stood by me. I cultivated good and still have freindships there and these people cared for me and that is why I stayed in the fellowship for all those years because I've felt the love of Jesus through my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yes, there were some opportunities to leave the church, but guess what? with all the false teaching outhere these days in my community, the Lord tugged on me to stay put with people who love me.

At this point I'm leaving this topic and leaving the CW church boards, which some of you may be happy for me to leave anyways. [:(]




Gayle,

I am so grateful you have found a body of believer's (Calvary Chapel) where you are accepted and loved and have experienced the kindness of the Lord through your church.I think that is wonderful...And your sharing what you shared above helps me understand a little more where you are coming from - to understand you a little better.

I just don't want you to think I am a CC hater, that is all. I don't know if you read my post #57 or not. But I did apologize in that post and expain myself a little more.

I am sorry I brought the CC hater statement up again. I should have dropped it. I thought in your apology you were just addressing the cult issue.

Gayle, please don't leave CW. We need you! You can help us understand more how to minister to people and love people better. So I would ask that you reconsider and stay with CW.

Your sister in Christ,
CherishedbyGod



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 1:24:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2shaye

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm in this catagory. I'm still trying to forgive - this is so much harder than anything I've ever had to forgive.

For me, this is how I view all CC's - through the eyes of experience with ONE PASTOR.


I will pray for you, dear sister. I had a similar experience.

Please don't be hard on your self for not being able to forgive yet. God knows you are trying. God knows we all are trying. You will be able to, by His grace someday...

I am struggling in areas of forgiveness, also. Will you pray for me?



WesP -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 1:25:16 PM)

quote:

I personally know of a dozen or more families that have not only left the church, (OH), but have not been able to go to any church due to the deep hurt that one person caused. Many families were displaced and wandered for months. Every single church we visited in the area had heard of the problem and reached out to help facilitate healing, while at the same time, this new pastor continually preached, "if you don't like it here, leave" - yes, that is a direct quote!


Just wanted to do an general interjection here. Whenever people hold the church or the pastor accountable for their abilities to fellowship with like-minded individuals, they are placing humans on a platform. I have been hurt be may people from different churches, but that does not condemn a denomination or churches at all. Humans always fail. We sin. God does not, so focus on Him, not a church or denomination. If the church you attend grates you, go on to another, but stay with Christ instead of man.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 1:50:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

quote:

I personally know of a dozen or more families that have not only left the church, (OH), but have not been able to go to any church due to the deep hurt that one person caused. Many families were displaced and wandered for months. Every single church we visited in the area had heard of the problem and reached out to help facilitate healing, while at the same time, this new pastor continually preached, "if you don't like it here, leave" - yes, that is a direct quote!


Just wanted to do an general interjection here. Whenever people hold the church or the pastor accountable for their abilities to fellowship with like-minded individuals, they are placing humans on a platform. I have been hurt be may people from different churches, but that does not condemn a denomination or churches at all. Humans always fail. We sin. God does not, so focus on Him, not a church or denomination. If the church you attend grates you, go on to another, but stay with Christ instead of man.


Sometimes, for those who have been deeply hurt, it takes a long time to heal...

I think just because one is side-lined from church for awhile, does not necessarily mean they are not "'with Christ".

In fact Christ can use this experience to draw them much closer to Christ and it does not necessarily mean in a "traditional" church setting.



stateofgrace -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 1:57:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1
I am a member of a CC church and these people love me as their sister in christ in spite of my racial make up.


I guess I have a hard time understanding that this is unique, because I come from an AofG church that has always had a fairly significant African-American population, which has increased in recent years, and the church is becoming increasingly diverse as time goes on (people with East Asian/Indian backgrounds, folks from Asian countries, folks with roots in Mexico or Latin America, etc.). This whole "in spite of" thing hasn't been a factor in our particular church for a long time if ever. I can't speak for everyone's hearts, but I can speak for the overall atmosphere.



WesP -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 2:13:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

quote:

I personally know of a dozen or more families that have not only left the church, (OH), but have not been able to go to any church due to the deep hurt that one person caused. Many families were displaced and wandered for months. Every single church we visited in the area had heard of the problem and reached out to help facilitate healing, while at the same time, this new pastor continually preached, "if you don't like it here, leave" - yes, that is a direct quote!


Just wanted to do an general interjection here. Whenever people hold the church or the pastor accountable for their abilities to fellowship with like-minded individuals, they are placing humans on a platform. I have been hurt be may people from different churches, but that does not condemn a denomination or churches at all. Humans always fail. We sin. God does not, so focus on Him, not a church or denomination. If the church you attend grates you, go on to another, but stay with Christ instead of man.


Sometimes, for those who have been deeply hurt, it takes a long time to heal...

I think just because one is side-lined from church for awhile, does not necessarily mean they are not "'with Christ".

In fact Christ can use this experience to draw them much closer to Christ and it does not necessarily mean in a "traditional" church setting.


I am not arguing that, CbG. I was specifically addressing the inability to go to church. That means that the affected had placed men higher than they had a right to be. [:)]



2shaye -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 3:57:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

I am not arguing that, CbG. I was specifically addressing the inability to go to church. That means that the affected had placed men higher than they had a right to be. [:)]

Wes, I absolutely understand and agree with what you're saying. As a mature Christian, we sought out another church to fellowship in. The former church had many unsaved, and many of those are whom we lost.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 4:08:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

I am not arguing that, CbG. I was specifically addressing the inability to go to church. That means that the affected had placed men higher than they had a right to be. [:)]



Thanks for the explanation! I see what you are saying now[:)]

Shalom



WesP -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 4:09:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2shaye

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

I am not arguing that, CbG. I was specifically addressing the inability to go to church. That means that the affected had placed men higher than they had a right to be. [:)]

Wes, I absolutely understand and agree with what you're saying. As a mature Christian, we sought out another church to fellowship in. The former church had many unsaved, and many of those are whom we lost.


That is a sad commentary on a church, but it is a widespread truth in too many places. May God bless and keep you in your new church family!



Anisavta -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 4:23:58 PM)

Not sure if I really want to enter this thread. But then again the Law thread is even more "lively".

I attended CC back when it was in the Big Tent. Back when it was just starting out and it was fresh and simple. Much has changed since then. CC Costa Mesa is a large mega church and it is not as fresh and very complicated in how it runs.
And as a church becomes a denomination ( yes CC does not accept the label but it is) just try to introduce a different "style" of teaching and see what happens.
All that to say off and on for 30 years I have attended CC. My last stint for 15 years until last June when the L~rd drew me back to my Jewish heritage and DH and I now are involved in a Messianic Synagogue.
The L~rd taught me much in CC. Things that I needed for growth in my faith.
I have been to many CCs thru the years and found some very rich in truth and a few that were (because of the pastor) lacking correct teaching.
My only concern now would be I find the pendulum swings too far to the side of casual and relaxed. I don't sense the reverence for the things of G~d as I think they should. But that is my opinion and don't expect others to totally agree with me.



notmycity -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 4:24:20 PM)

Calvary Chapel = Mc Church



notmycity -> RE: Calvary Chapel! (4/9/2008 4:51:38 PM)

I should add that one of my biggest concerns with CC was that Hell was never really a part of the so-called Biblical teaching. The pastor even admitted to never having preached on Hell for 25 years.

I’ve been to several CC and they have all had an extremely fluffy, lukewarm approach.


Heb 10:22-25
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:22-25 serves as an excellent test of any church, and from our experience, most of the above Scripture comes nowhere close to applying at any of the CC’s we’ve been a part of.

Jesus said, “...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

May He find us and ours faithful to HIM and HIS WORD when He comes! Absolutely nothing else will matter in that Day.



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