RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (Full Version)

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propitiated4 -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/1/2008 1:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

I think that there's a lot of people who come to God because of fear of hell. But eventually, they either fall away, or fall in love with Jesus and hell becomes the farthest thing from their mind when it comes to their faith. You can tell a genuine Christian by their love for Christ, and fear of being separated from Him, not their fear of hell.



Excellent post! I agree..



Nothingman -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/1/2008 2:16:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Hell and its attending torture is a peripheral subject. We are saved from being seperated from God.


What I am saying is, how can we understand and accept the fullness of grace if we don't realize all that the price of the cross bought for us?


You CAN'T understand it; all descriptions of heaven and hell are metaphoric descriptions at best, and are human conventions used to allude to what it must be like. Why can't you understand grace as simply what it is; it is Christ allowing man and God to commune. It allows us not to be seperated from God. That is enough for me...I get the point.

I think all Christians should be weary of trying to describe the furniture of heaven or the temperature of hell...



1love1God1way -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/1/2008 2:42:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nothingman

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Hell and its attending torture is a peripheral subject. We are saved from being seperated from God.


What I am saying is, how can we understand and accept the fullness of grace if we don't realize all that the price of the cross bought for us?


You CAN'T understand it; all descriptions of heaven and hell are metaphoric descriptions at best, and are human conventions used to allude to what it must be like. Why can't you understand grace as simply what it is; it is Christ allowing man and God to commune. It allows us not to be seperated from God. That is enough for me...I get the point.

I think all Christians should be weary of trying to describe the furniture of heaven or the temperature of hell...


Again, not what I meant. Boy, I'm getting misunderstood a lot on this thread!

All I mean is, we can never know how much the cross really means, but without understanding the who range of what it has done for us (understanding, in part, of course), we can't fully appreciate the gift.

To just say Christ died because he loves us and wants to be with us is nice, but it is incomplete. He took the penalty, bore our sin. We were on a pathway to destruction. We are without hope and doomed to an eternity of torment if not for his sacrifice.

It is important to look at the full spectrum, and pull it all together. I like how Jonathan Edwards puts it:

"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God."



JimboFletch -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/1/2008 4:09:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
To just say Christ died because he loves us and wants to be with us is nice, but it is incomplete. He took the penalty, bore our sin. We were on a pathway to destruction. We are without hope and doomed to an eternity of torment if not for his sacrifice.

True, for, as scripture reveals without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin and the wages of sin is death. Jesus became sin for us, paid the wages through His blood and death.



mariadreamer -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/3/2008 2:56:25 PM)

Welcome, fallenstar. Your concerns reflect the prevailing perception of Christianity and salvation reduced to the shallow sphere of rules and punishments. Sinners in the hands of an angry God, punished for breaking set rules. A God whose pride is offended and he punishes his son instead of us. Say you believe and you escape this punishment... No wonder people have a problem with a God like that.

From the apostolic times, Christians understood salvation as a relationship with God, walking in His light, becoming partakers of the divine nature, through Christ, Who humbled Himself unto death to bring us back to God. Hell is not something God created to send anyone into, but something we choose ourselves if we reject God, Who is Life Himself. It has been said that those in hell will not be deprived of God's love - but rather for them that love would be intolerable suffering, freely chosen.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/3/2008 3:06:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
From the apostolic times, Christians understood salvation as a relationship with God, walking in His light, becoming partakers of the divine nature, through Christ, Who humbled Himself unto death to bring us back to God.

I disagree. The saints of old looked forward to the coming Messiah and they certainly had relationships with God too.



Mannamuncher -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 9:30:30 AM)

Look at Jesus' life on the earth...

He spoke of hell, but to the Pharisees mainly.

Did Jesus say, "Shape up or you go to hell ?"



Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.



Why are The Pharisees children of hell ?

Why did the teaching of The Pharisees cause

the new believer to be destined for hell ?

What is this teaching that cannot save ?



Jesus preached forgiveness and mercy.

This is the appeal of God, not terror.

(Yes, we have a holy fear & reverence for God.)



Who is hell for ?

How else would God exemplify His justice ?

More importantly...His Divine Mercy !!!



Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:



Jhud -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 10:34:42 AM)

First off, I don’t think anything ultimately exists unless it has a purpose in God’s overall plan, so apparently hell is a necessary part of that plan.

And as God is love, then as odd as it might seem, I think hell ultimately has a loving purpose.

I think the nature of humans is such that had that not been some consequence of sin, the suffering and emptiness of this life, the existence of an eternal outer darkness apart from anything good in the next, then humans would have been content to wallow in some empty twilight existence for all eternity.

In that sense, suffering, in this life and in the next, is part of the grace that draws those who would believe to do so. So hell plays a part in our coming to believe, and in that sense, we can appreciate its existence.



rcjames -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 10:53:26 AM)

Well as for me, it was not the fear or idea of hell that drove me to God.

I was drawn to God just like the Scripture says;

(1Jo 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.

Even if there were no Heaven nor hell, I would still serve Him.

Thanks
RC



Jhud -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 11:26:25 AM)

quote:

Well as for me, it was not the fear or idea of hell that drove me to God.

I was drawn to God just like the Scripture says;

(1Jo 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.

Even if there were no Heaven nor hell, I would still serve Him.


In all due respect RC, my problem with such a statment isn't that I doubt your love for God or your sincere motivations, but that I don't know how you could make a definitive statement about how you would act if reality were radically different than it is.



URForgiven -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 12:39:32 PM)

For myself, it was the present world that influenced my becoming a Christian, not the next.

When I had tried all that the world says will bring meaning, purpose and fulfillment in life, and found it wanting...that is where God found me. I came to the end of myself, which is right where God was waiting patiently for me.

Hell played no part in my conversion, except the hell of the present world we live in.



Jhud -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 1:21:08 PM)

For
quote:

myself, it was the present world that influenced my becoming a Christian, not the next.

When I had tried all that the world says will bring meaning, purpose and fulfillment in life, and found it wanting...that is where God found me. I came to the end of myself, which is right where God was waiting patiently for me.

Hell played no part in my conversion, except the hell of the present world we live in.


While I obviously didn't believe in hell as an unbeliever and thus had no fear of it, hell still plays a critical part in the gospel, and we are required to believe the gospel to be saved. Christ really only had to die for us if hell exists; that is the effect of our sins from which we must be saved, eternal death, an eternity apart from God.

One may not have understood this at conversion (as I didn't) , but without it, there is no gospel, and nothing to be saved from. Hell is a neccesary aspect of Christian belief - indeed, what Christ did, and what we believe He did in order to be saved would make no sense apart from the existence of hell, even if our comprehension of this fact comes later.



URForgiven -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 1:35:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

For
quote:

myself, it was the present world that influenced my becoming a Christian, not the next.

When I had tried all that the world says will bring meaning, purpose and fulfillment in life, and found it wanting...that is where God found me. I came to the end of myself, which is right where God was waiting patiently for me.

Hell played no part in my conversion, except the hell of the present world we live in.


While I obviously didn't believe in hell as an unbeliever and thus had no fear of it, hell still plays a critical part in the gospel, and we are required to believe the gospel to be saved. Christ really only had to die for us if hell exists; that is the effect of our sins from which we must be saved, eternal death, an eternity apart from God.

One may not have understood this at conversion (as I didn't) , but without it, there is no gospel, and nothing to be saved from. Hell is a neccesary aspect of Christian belief - indeed, what Christ did, and what we believe He did in order to be saved would make no sense apart from the existence of hell, even if our comprehension of this fact comes later.


We are saved from death, eternal death. The wages of sin is death. If that death is eternal hell, matters little. The understanding that there is a God that loves you and that has provided a way for you to be with Him eternally is enough. At least it was for me. The Gospel is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, hell doesn't even make a cameo appearance.



Jhud -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 1:47:55 PM)

quote:

We are saved from death, eternal death. The wages of sin is death. If that death is eternal hell, matters little. The understanding that there is a God that loves you and that has provided a way for you to be with Him eternally is enough. At least it was for me. The Gospel is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, hell doesn't even make a cameo appearance.


'Eternal death', and hell are one and the same; obviously Christ didn't save us form 'eternal non-existence'. In fact, in terms of the cross, that would not have made any sense; if the penalty of sin is non-existence, then Christ would have had to cease to exist for awhile - but that isn't what happened - He died for us, so that we could live eternally - that is, not live in hell.

And while I am not diminishing that we can and are drawn by God's love, we most deeply appreciate and respond to that love when we correctly discern what it is that He actually did for us - saved us from an eternity in hell.



URForgiven -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 1:55:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

We are saved from death, eternal death. The wages of sin is death. If that death is eternal hell, matters little. The understanding that there is a God that loves you and that has provided a way for you to be with Him eternally is enough. At least it was for me. The Gospel is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, hell doesn't even make a cameo appearance.


'Eternal death', and hell are one and the same; obviously Christ didn't save us form 'eternal non-existence'. In fact, in terms of the cross, that would not have made any sense; if the penalty of sin is non-existence, then Christ would have had to cease to exist for awhile - but that isn't what happened - He died for us, so that we could live eternally - that is, not live in hell.

And while I am not diminishing that we can and are drawn by God's love, we most deeply appreciate and respond to that love when we correctly discern what it is that He actually did for us - saved us from an eternity in hell.


Sorry, I have to disagree. I was not motivated out of fear, I responded to God's love and I believe my response was correct.

For the record, I do believe in a literal Hell.

Peace



Jhud -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 2:05:32 PM)

quote:

Sorry, I have to disagree. I was not motivated out of fear, I responded to God's love and I believe my response was correct.

For the record, I do believe in a literal Hell.


I didn't say you were 'motivated by fear', indeed, I would have no basis to say what does or should motivate you.

I am saying that the gospel makes no sense if hell doesn't exist; there is no reason for Christ to die, nothing for us to be saved from. And as we understand what hell is, and what we were saved from, it only increases our love and appreciation of God, and our desire that others not end up there.



1love1God1way -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 2:05:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

I responded to God's love and I believe my response was correct.



I attempted suicide.

I failed.

I realized if I had succeeded, I probably would have landed myself in hell.

I was scared.

I ran to God.

Was my response incorrect? Was my commitment invalid?



rcjames -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 2:09:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Well as for me, it was not the fear or idea of hell that drove me to God.

I was drawn to God just like the Scripture says;

(1Jo 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.

Even if there were no Heaven nor hell, I would still serve Him.


In all due respect RC, my problem with such a statment isn't that I doubt your love for God or your sincere motivations, but that I don't know how you could make a definitive statement about how you would act if reality were radically different than it is.


When I got saved I knew nothing of Heaven nor hell, I only knew that my sins had been forgiven and I promised God that I would do whatever He wnated me to do for the rest of my life. My sincerity for that relationship with God has never increased or decreased when I learned about Heaven, hell, tribulations on earth etc. etc.

So as for me I can honestly make that statement.

As a young Christian (12 yr. old) and had started studying the Word I read the story of the three young men and the fiery furnace. It was for a report in school (Public school no less so you know that was a long time ago to be able to do reports on the Bible). Anywho the following verse has been my mainstay for well over 50 years;

(Dan 3:17) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

(Dan 3:18) But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Oru God is able to deliver me, and He will, but even if He doesn't, I will never bend my knee to the enemy.

THanks
RC



JimboFletch -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 2:17:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Well as for me, it was not the fear or idea of hell that drove me to God.

I was drawn to God just like the Scripture says;

(1Jo 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.

Even if there were no Heaven nor hell, I would still serve Him.


In all due respect RC, my problem with such a statment isn't that I doubt your love for God or your sincere motivations, but that I don't know how you could make a definitive statement about how you would act if reality were radically different than it is.


When I got saved I knew nothing of Heaven nor hell, I only knew that my sins had been forgiven and I promised God that I would do whatever He wnated me to do for the rest of my life. My sincerity for that relationship with God has never increased or decreased when I learned about Heaven, hell, tribulations on earth etc. etc.

So as for me I can honestly make that statement.

I too was not a theologian when I was saved. If I knew that when I die that was the end of my existence, I'd still want to spend this life in service to my Lord. Heaven is icing - magnificent as it is - but the joy of a relationship with Him is worth everything!



URForgiven -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 2:49:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Well as for me, it was not the fear or idea of hell that drove me to God.

I was drawn to God just like the Scripture says;

(1Jo 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.

Even if there were no Heaven nor hell, I would still serve Him.


In all due respect RC, my problem with such a statment isn't that I doubt your love for God or your sincere motivations, but that I don't know how you could make a definitive statement about how you would act if reality were radically different than it is.


When I got saved I knew nothing of Heaven nor hell, I only knew that my sins had been forgiven and I promised God that I would do whatever He wnated me to do for the rest of my life. My sincerity for that relationship with God has never increased or decreased when I learned about Heaven, hell, tribulations on earth etc. etc.

So as for me I can honestly make that statement.

I too was not a theologian when I was saved. If I knew that when I die that was the end of my existence, I'd still want to spend this life in service to my Lord. Heaven is icing - magnificent as it is - but the joy of a relationship with Him is worth everything!


Amen



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 3:55:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

I responded to God's love and I believe my response was correct.



I attempted suicide.

I failed.

I realized if I had succeeded, I probably would have landed myself in hell.

I was scared.

I ran to God.

Was my response incorrect? Was my commitment invalid?

Not at all - it was realistic.

People have to fear Him to love Him. You had a strong understanding of your sinfulness and that caused you to accept His redemption. People who don't know that they're in need of help will not look for it.

When the tough times come people who haven't had a deep connection with their sinfulness and His solution often fall away. Church grow statistics seem to reflect that. I think that most people who respond to an altar call end up leaving Him when things get tough. I remember hearing of Charles Finney (http://www.gospeltruth.net/fbbeardsley.htm) having altar calls where he'd preach hellfire and brimstone and then refuse to pray with the person who came forward weeping and trembling. He would instruct them to head home, not speak to anyone else, and not go to sleep until they had made peace with God.

That sounds like a good way to go.

If you don't REALLY know that you are a sin-sick person you will have no real need of the Physician.



URForgiven -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 3:58:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

I responded to God's love and I believe my response was correct.



I attempted suicide.

I failed.

I realized if I had succeeded, I probably would have landed myself in hell.

I was scared.

I ran to God.

Was my response incorrect? Was my commitment invalid?


No one runs to God. God runs to you. He had you in His reach all along. Why else do you suppose you failed?

God is good. [:D]



1love1God1way -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 4:05:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

No one runs to God. God runs to you. He had you in His reach all along. Why else do you suppose you failed?

God is good. [:D]


Regardless of semantics, I gave my life back over to God because I didn't want to go to hell.



JimboFletch -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 4:09:46 PM)

Fear of Hell is legitimate way to get someone's attention but it's a poor long-term motivator. It's like getting married out of fear that you'll stay single. It's a whole lot better to be in love with the One you yoke up with.
[;)]



Jhud -> RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God (4/4/2008 4:14:44 PM)

quote:

When I got saved I knew nothing of Heaven nor hell, I only knew that my sins had been forgiven and I promised God that I would do whatever He wnated me to do for the rest of my life. My sincerity for that relationship with God has never increased or decreased when I learned about Heaven, hell, tribulations on earth etc. etc.

So as for me I can honestly make that statement.


Well, again, in all due respect (and I do respect your sound thoughts on doctrine) first off, I think hell is a critical part of belief because:

A. It's real
B. Christ preached about the reality of it, and told us we needed to be concerned about it
C. If it wasn't critical, then Christ had no reason to die for us.

Now this is quite a different consideration than whether a specific theological knowledge of hell is necessary to be saved. The reality of hell is a necessary and critical aspect of the gospel. The gospel is necessary for us to be saved. We can't separate them.

quote:

As a young Christian (12 yr. old) and had started studying the Word I read the story of the three young men and the fiery furnace. It was for a report in school (Public school no less so you know that was a long time ago to be able to do reports on the Bible). Anywho the following verse has been my mainstay for well over 50 years;

(Dan 3:17) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

(Dan 3:18) But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Oru God is able to deliver me, and He will, but even if He doesn't, I will never bend my knee to the enemy.


First off, it is quite likely that the reason Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego responded as they did because, as Christ said, they did "not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear[ed] Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.".

They feared God, and the results of disobedience to Him, more than an earthly fiery furnace.

But it is more than that.

If, as you say there was a reality where neither heaven nor hell existed, then the final result of your life would be to simply cease existing, much as the atheists claim happen. You wouldn't be preaching the gospel, because the gospel wouldn't exist; it would be unnecessary.

And as it would be unneccesary, so to would the types and the shadows of the the OT history which point toward Christ and His work.

So for all practical purposes, there would be no Scripture.

So no gospel, no Scripture, no reason to think that what we did in this life mattered either way - that to me adds up to no belief. God exists, but He in no way would have ‘demonstrated His love for us while we were yet sinners’, and serving Him really has no meaning in this context.

The truth of God is a tightly interwoven fabric – we cannot simply remove a thread and have it hold together.

Now I know you are speaking in hypotheticals, as in ‘If I knew God as I do now, and heaven and hell were removed, I would still serve Him’ but I think that is an impossible thing, because heaven and hell are a product of the nature of God; indeed, I think the terms would be better defined as ‘eternally in or apart from the Lord’ in which case serving (or believing in Him) Him in the context of this reality requires that there be a heaven or hell, as much as God exists, we are either in Him or separate from Him.

URForgiven wrote of the "the hell of the present world we live in." - well yes, this is really just a picture of life apart from God, of which the final hell is just this life drawn to it's final conclusion and made permenant - so hell still plays a part in our consideration to believe, if not in a theological sense, certainly in the sense that we taste it now and seek the relief that is found in Christ.

Our eternal condition is simply a continuation of that which begins now; as a believer I am in the Lord now, as an unbeliever I was separate from Him – physical death simply makes that status permanent, and the experience complete.

So I think the existence of hell is critical to belief; if this life were a heaven, or we knew there was nothing after death, then we would have little reason to trust in Christ.

I hope this makes sense.



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