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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 4:21:29 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I too was not a theologian when I was saved. If I knew that when I die that was the end of my existence, I'd still want to spend this life in service to my Lord. Heaven is icing - magnificent as it is - but the joy of a relationship with Him is worth everything!
Maybe we are all missing each other semantically, but heaven is a relationship with the Lord, it's just eternal and complete in a way that it never could be on earth.
In fact, I would be greatly saddened to find out that the only experience I was ever to have of God would be 'through a mirror darkly' in this body of flesh, and that after I died, what I had experienced of the Lord in this life would be lost.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 4:37:24 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
Our eternal condition is simply a continuation of that which begins now; as a believer I am in the Lord now, as an unbeliever I was separate from Him – physical death simply makes that status permanent, and the experience complete.
So I think the existence of hell is critical to belief; if this life were a heaven, or we knew there was nothing after death, then we would have little reason to trust in Christ.
I think that last sentence is one of the saddest things I've ever read.
Speaking of OT, there was almost no concept of heaven and hell as we know it today. Countless saints served the Lord with gladness without knowing what to expect after this life.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 4:42:58 PM
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Jhud
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I think that last sentence is one of the saddest things I've ever read.
Speaking of OT, there was almost no concept of heaven and hell as we know it today. Countless saints served the Lord with gladness without knowing what to expect after this life.
I am not so sure that is true; in fact, Hebrews 11 makes it pretty clear that the faithful saints of old were expecting a 'heavenly city' and didn't consider this world their home.
And in twenty years of Christian life I have never had a Christian tell me that anticipating heaven was 'sad'.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 4:45:01 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Speaking of OT, there was almost no concept of heaven and hell as we know it today. Countless saints served the Lord with gladness without knowing what to expect after this life.
Sure, they generally served Him with gladness not thinking about punishment in the afterlife. However, they did develop an idea of the afterlife that wasn't pleasant. They also had severe warnings from God that they would be punished for their sins in this life if they didn't live as a holy nation.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 4:46:05 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And in twenty years of Christian life I have never had a Christian tell me that anticipating heaven was 'sad'.
No, this:
quote:
...or we knew there was nothing after death, then we would have little reason to trust in Christ.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 4:49:12 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7212
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
...or we knew there was nothing after death, then we would have little reason to trust in Christ.
Just agreeing with Paul:
1 Cor. 15:16 - 19
For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 4:55:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
...or we knew there was nothing after death, then we would have little reason to trust in Christ.
Just agreeing with Paul:
1 Cor. 15:16 - 19
For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
I knew you were working up to that verse, but it doesn't say we have little reason to trust in Christ if this life is all we have. It is referring to CHRIST only being in the flesh, only in this life. I.e. if Christ was only in this life, never resurrected after death, then He was not who He claimed and Paul and all other believers claimed Him to be.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 5:00:47 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7212
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quote:
I knew you were working up to that verse, but it doesn't say we have little reason to trust in Christ if this life is all we have. It is referring to CHRIST only being in the flesh, only in this life. I.e. if Christ was only in this life, never resurrected after death, then He was not who He claimed and Paul and all other believers claimed Him to be.
Well, no, it has to do with the general notion of resurrection; Paul was dealing with those who claimed "that there is no resurrection of the dead", no life after this life. It works either way; if a Christian isn't trusting Christ for eternal life, then what in the world is He trusting Christ for - a nice car?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/4/2008 10:40:10 PM
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Dred
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From: Alabama
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Have you ever noticed how in all the evangelistic sermons in the book of Acts there was not one mention of the afterlife?
Check it out; see what they do talk about for motivations.
"And this is eternal life that they may know You, the one true God, and Jesus Christ Whom you have sent." -- John 17:3
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/5/2008 4:05:03 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 403
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From: Kansas
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Dred,
quote:
Have you ever noticed how in all the evangelistic sermons in the book of Acts there was not one mention of the afterlife?
Good point...and while they're at it they might try to find one verse on hell spoken of by one of the greatest evangelists ever. Also the guy who wrote 1/3 of the NT. It must be more important to people today than it was to Paul, I wonder why that is?
quote:
Check it out; see what they do talk about for motivations.
As I said early on, I was committed to going to hell after making the conscious decision that it would be my fate. But as the song says: "Love broke through."
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/5/2008 4:14:15 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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Our Master preached a message of repentance and He also spoke of hell for those who embrace darkness.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/5/2008 5:42:17 PM
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Dred
Posts: 223
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From: Alabama
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First, before anyone gets too excited, I do believe there is such a thing as postmortem punishment. I agree that sermons on Hell have woken many people up through something they already fear so that they can see what their real problem is.
However, I find it so horrifying when I see comments on a variety of threads sounding like "without Hell, what is there to be saved from?" or even worse "why would we want Jesus if not to avoid Hell?" If you only want Jesus to avoid Hell, then you don't want Jesus, you only want to avoid painful fires. What else could we want to be saved from? How about the sin that infects our very beings with its bondage and its destruction of our very humanity? It's much worse than crack, cholesterol and cancer all put together. Until we want to get rid of that stuff apart from any just and painful consequences resulting from it, we don't want the salvation of Christ.
Who wouldn't want to be saved from a painful fire? But when we come to the point at which we would rather have a painful fire than sin, then we are getting somewhere, for our God is a consuming fire and He will burn away that sin.
So let me ask you to choose between two hypothetical destinies (I know you can avoid both, but what horrifies you more?)
1) Eternal bondage to sin in a physically comfortable place.
2) Never ending physical pain with an intensity as if from fire, but with no sin infecting you in the least--with a clean and pure heart.
"She will bear a Son; and you shal call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins"--Matthew 1:21
"and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses."--Acts 13:39
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/5/2008 5:48:57 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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Talking about the coming Judgement is talking about REALITY. Our Master continually preached repentance. He didn't need to talk about hell much, for everyone knew about it (remember, His audience was Jewish). Everyone who heard His preaching understood that if they weren't in His Kingdom they'd be in the other place.
People who don't have a background in the Scriptures like the Jewish audience of our Master had need to be taught those things. They aren't going to appreciate their saviour unless they understand exactly what it is that they have been saved from.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1034567761681383803
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/5/2008 5:53:16 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 403
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From: Kansas
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iSERVEaJEW,
I agree, but is it the same hell that is preached today?
The word 'hell' is in KJV 23 times, NIV 14 times, NAS 13 times, and YLT 0 times!!! What happened to hell in Young's Literal Translation?
As Jimbo said earlier. quote:
Speaking of OT, there was almost no concept of heaven and hell as we know it today.
I was surprized to find that same fact that Jimbo mentioned about 10+ years ago when I asked a "Reformed Jew" what they were taught concerning hell. She said she'd never heard of it in any of her synagogue meetings or religious training studies. She was a 'marginal' Jew but has since become a very zealous Christian. And not because of hell either. So if hell wasn't important to the OT Jews or to NT Paul, then what makes it so importatnt today?
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/5/2008 6:00:16 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
I'm not interested in debating the differences in "hell" theories. I'm only interested in the fact that it is a place of separation from God.
Reform Judaism isn't orthodox at all. They don't even believe in the inspiration of the Tanakh. Ask an Orthodox Jew about hell.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/6/2008 7:38:03 AM
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SnapDraggin
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The problem with Hell, is that it is applied inconsistantly in translations. The actual word itself is of a wide spectrum of Pagan origin, where you will find Egyptian mythology as well as Norse mythology, amongst many others. The Norse god Loki had a daughter by the name of Hel. To be consistent with Scripture, I would rather leave the Hebrew and Greek words in their transliterated forms, than to translate them to "hell". The 4 words are Sheol/Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. To even translate them all as "hell" is not justified by Scripture, and actually very unique. Reading up on theolgians and bible scholars, they will point out the different serious problems with referring to these 4 words as the same place. Not very many Christians know this, but it has been known in theology for centuries. Like someone said, if you told someone 400 years ago to "go to hell", he would've gone to the basement and get a sack of potatoes, because potatoes was stored in the basement, and they called it "hell" or "helan". Today you only need to open up a dictionary to see in what this word has evolved into.
Nothingman writes: quote:
You CAN'T understand it; all descriptions of heaven and hell are metaphoric descriptions at best, and are human conventions used to allude to what it must be like.
We CAN understand it, if we stick to the original Hebrew and Greek words and the Word of God isn't at a loss of words for this "terrible place". The places of fire mentioned in Scripture, relates directly to God's judgments and chastisement. The fire has a positive connotation to it, when looking at all the references to precious metal, chaff being burned and God being a consuming fire. If you want to be consistent with Scripture you need to have a method of distinguisihing between positive fire and negative fire, and be crystal clear about it.
Basically, if you read God's Word, there are alot of verses that contradict the concept of the Christian Hell.. Here is just one..
1Co 3:15 "...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire..."
I agree that no-one should base his/her faith on a fear of hell, and it doesn't matter how well people try to explain it, it's always in the back of your head. Once the concept of hell is understood according to the Scriptures, do we understand the cross better. If Christ had to die for our sins to save us from Hell, then it means that Satan forced God in sending His Son, and I refuse to believe that anything in creation can put God on the backfoot.
Regards
Snappy
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/6/2008 9:28:32 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
Have you ever noticed how in all the evangelistic sermons in the book of Acts there was not one mention of the afterlife?
Check it out; see what they do talk about for motivations.
"And this is eternal life that they may know You, the one true God, and Jesus Christ Whom you have sent." -- John 17:3
Amen...and to whom does Jesus speak condemnation to ?
Is Jesus running around yelling at people, telling them to
get their act together, straighten up, and just be holy ?
Is Jesus preaching hell; or mercy, grace, and life ?
The fear of THE LORD is the beginning of wisdom !!!
.......NOT hell
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/6/2008 9:45:12 AM
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URForgiven
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Hell is not a motivation [though it can be used as such], it is a fact. As I have said before, God came to me when I came to the end of myself. I wasn't thinking about the next life, I was thinking about this life. I needed Jesus now. I was dead now. And I needed life now.
God does not save us so much to keep us out of Hell, as to get Heaven back into us.
This is a present reality in this life, not just something that we look forward to in the next.
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/6/2008 11:13:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7212
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
However, I find it so horrifying when I see comments on a variety of threads sounding like "without Hell, what is there to be saved from?" or even worse "why would we want Jesus if not to avoid Hell?" If you only want Jesus to avoid Hell, then you don't want Jesus, you only want to avoid painful fires. What else could we want to be saved from? How about the sin that infects our very beings with its bondage and its destruction of our very humanity? It's much worse than crack, cholesterol and cancer all put together. Until we want to get rid of that stuff apart from any just and painful consequences resulting from it, we don't want the salvation of Christ.
First off, I guess I am a bit concerned when people start placing words in other peoples mouths to demonstrate a point; I haven’t seen anyone here say, "why would we want Jesus if not to avoid Hell?”, and quoting others as if they have is somewhat deceptive. And no one has said that is the “only want Jesus to avoid Hell”, again, that is misleading.
When we say sin infects us with bondage, that destroys ‘our very humanity?’, we have to ask – How?
The answer of course is that it separates us from God, both in this life and the next, and diminishes our capacity to hope in anything but worldly ambitions and comforts which can never truly satisfy.
quote:
Until we want to get rid of that stuff apart from any just and painful consequences resulting from it, we don't want the salvation of Christ.
The salvation of Christ and eternal life are one and the same; when you alleviate the effects of sin, you have eternal life, and if you don’t have eternal life, you don’t have Christ. We were created to live eternally in fellowship with God.
So let me ask you to choose between two hypothetical destinies (I know you can avoid both, but what horrifies you more?)
quote:
1) Eternal bondage to sin in a physically comfortable place.
2) Never ending physical pain with an intensity as if from fire, but with no sin infecting you in the least--with a clean and pure heart.
The problem with the question is that in order for it to be true, the fundamental nature of God would have to be different – and this rather proves my point that you can’t actually say you believe in Christ in an understanding way without also realizing the effect of believing in Him – Christ not only imparts eternal life, He is eternal life, “ the resurrection and the life”, and therefore frees us from eternal death.
Any hypothetical that doesn't include a correct understanding of heaven and hell is less than the full gospel.
To suggest that there existed a reality where we would exist eternally experiencing a partial redemption from sin, but not from it’s effects, is to suggest a reality where there could be a weak and ineffective Christ, not at all the Christ that we do believe in.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/6/2008 11:17:41 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7212
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
God does not save us so much to keep us out of Hell, as to get Heaven back into us.
These aren't mutually exclusive notions; they are one and the same.
It's like saying I to a drowning man one has saved, "I didn't save you to keep you from drowning, I saved you so you could live".
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 12:08:40 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
God does not save us so much to keep us out of Hell, as to get Heaven back into us.
These aren't mutually exclusive notions; they are one and the same.
It's like saying I to a drowning man one has saved, "I didn't save you to keep you from drowning, I saved you so you could live".
sigh
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 6:16:35 AM
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SureHope
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All God creates and does is a reflection of His glory.
God created hell as a demonstration of His righteousness, justice and wrath, etc.
You can say, without a revelation of God's justice and wrath no one would believe in God. And this would be a true statement because the revelation of God's justice and wrath is a part of who God is and thus we need this revelation to believe in Him.
If this is all we know of God we cannot believe unto salvation, for all we will know is God's justice and wrath upon sinners.
The Lord Jesus Christ and His Cross show us a fuller display of God's nature. Not only does the Cross of Christ display God's righteousness, justice and wrath; but also reveals to us His graciousness, mercy, lovingkindness, forgiveness, etc. Believing God includes all of God - not merely His love or not merely His justice, but His love, justice and mercy. You can't have one without the other when dealing with God.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Without hell, nobody would believe in God - 4/7/2008 11:13:35 AM
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Dred
Posts: 223
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
First off, I guess I am a bit concerned when people start placing words in other peoples mouths to demonstrate a point; I haven’t seen anyone here say, "why would we want Jesus if not to avoid Hell?”, and quoting others as if they have is somewhat deceptive. And no one has said that is the “only want Jesus to avoid Hell”, again, that is misleading.
First off, since you mentioned placing words in the mouths of others and being misleading, I wish to point out how clear it should be that I quoted no one and was clearly not speaking of this thread in particular, but threads in general in which hell comes to be discussed. Notice in particular the words I used:
quote:
I see comments on a variety of threads sounding like
My post was directed at the OP, though I could include some quotes from this thread which sound like the above. No one has quite risen to the second of my "sounding like" examples above, but at least the first. Such as:
quote:
I am saying that the gospel makes no sense if hell doesn't exist; there is no reason for Christ to die, nothing for us to be saved from.
At least that seems to indicate that we wouldn't want Christ, in regard to His salvation, if not for postmortem punishment for sin as opposed to the sin itself.
quote:
Any hypothetical that doesn't include a correct understanding of heaven and hell is less than the full gospel.
To suggest that there existed a reality where we would exist eternally experiencing a partial redemption from sin, but not from it’s effects, is to suggest a reality where there could be a weak and ineffective Christ, not at all the Christ that we do believe in.
???? What do you think a "hypothetical" is? Any hypothetical, by virtue of being a hypothetical would not be the gospel at all. Also, I made it abundantly clear I was not suggesting the existence of any such reality.
I wanted to illustrate things in such a way so as to help people see what really horrifies them more: physical torment, much like the usual perceptions of Hell, or the infection of sin itself.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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