|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 12:11:28 PM
|
|
|
ljmac
Posts: 878
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
|
There are many parallels between slavery and abortion and you'll find some of them on exhibit right here, namely the defense of it's legalization. Christians who accept legalization of abortion are the intellectual descendents of Christians who accpeted legalization of slavery.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 12:27:41 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
The freedom deals with getting yourself fixed, your partner fixed or not having sex.
You intrude on someone elses freedom when you "create them" and then decide that it's wrong for them to live.
RvW remember deals with abortion on demand. It had nothing to do with medical problems or rape.
Many people believe that RvW creates a right. The issue is really about whether a woman has the right to control what goes on inside her body. And ultimately, if a woman believes that having an abortion is a right to control what's going on inside of her body, she really sees no difference between being forced to continue a pregnancy and being forced to have an RFID chip implanted in her body.
There are many things that are more important than life. Freedom is one of them.
quote:
ROFL what a bunch of bologna.
Some people think that sex with children is OK. Of course in some countries people don't speak out and those children boys and girls are raped day after day. But hey who has the time to deal with that! We are too busy walking by them saying "God bless you".
I will continue to stand in the gap. Even if you think I don't have the "time to do it".
Many saw slavery as "right" too.
And if the world ever gets in that state- where lots of people believe that sex with children is ok, it will likely be in our best interests to devote our efforts to making sure it doesn't happen in the church, rather than dealing with society as a whole. Actually, Paul advocated exactly the same thing in ancient Rome- where sexual molestation of children was prevalent. Not only did he say that these people shouldn't be burnt at the stake- he went further to say that it was even ok to associate with them if they didn't call themselves Christians. (See 1 Cor. 5:9-11).
I also think it's very difficult to avoid interpreting 1 Cor. 5:12-13 in a way that precludes Christians from condemning or judging those outside the Church:
quote:
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Part of the reason that Christianity has the reputation it has today is because we didn't follow Paul's instructions. If you want to make abortion illegal, that's fine. Just don't condemn others in the name of Christianity in the process, though.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 12:32:46 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
There are many parallels between slavery and abortion and you'll find some of them on exhibit right here, namely the defense of it's legalization. Christians who accept legalization of abortion are the intellectual descendents of Christians who accpeted legalization of slavery.
Keep drawing the comparison if you'd like, but don't forget that chattel slavery went on for roughly 400 years. It started on the Portuguese island of Madeira around 1450, and continued in the US until the Civil War
I think that there can be an end to abortion in 50 years if we take the right approach. If we take the ljmac approach, it will take another 370 years.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 12:44:30 PM
|
|
|
ljmac
Posts: 878
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
There are many parallels between slavery and abortion and you'll find some of them on exhibit right here, namely the defense of it's legalization. Christians who accept legalization of abortion are the intellectual descendents of Christians who accpeted legalization of slavery.
Keep drawing the comparison if you'd like, but don't forget that chattel slavery went on for roughly 400 years. It started on the Portuguese island of Madeira around 1450, and continued in the US until the Civil War
I think that there can be an end to abortion in 50 years if we take the right approach. If we take the ljmac approach, it will take another 370 years.
I do not think abortion will ever end, with or without Christian enablers. The point in changing the laws is reducing the number of abortions, perhaps drastically. If we got back to the pre-Death Roe level, then we could cut the number in half.
Wilberforce worked almost his entire adult life to stop the slave trade in Britain. He didn't give up. He didn't tolerate it. He didn't wait for the hearts and minds of the Brits to change. He attempted to change the laws even when he was almost entirely alone. That's a life of a Christian, work ceasingly for the innocent even when discouraged by others.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 12:53:18 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 1930
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
William Carey the great missionary worked to have the laws changed so that when a man died this widow was not burned alive at his funeral.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 12:55:35 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. 9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
This should be viewed in the context of what was to follow shortly thereafter- a period in Israel's history where God used Amos to rail against stuff like:
quote:
You trample on the poor
and force him to give you grain.
Therefore, though you have built stone mansions,
you will not live in them;
though you have planted lush vineyards,
you will not drink their wine.
For I know how many are your offenses
and how great your sins.
You oppress the righteous and take bribes
and you deprive the poor of justice in the courts.
Therefore the prudent man keeps quiet in such times,
for the times are evil.
Seek good, not evil,
that you may live.
Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you,
just as you say he is.
(Amos 5:11-14)
A few things to keep in mind here:
1.) Israel was God's holy people. God had special expectations for these people to behave righteously.
2.) Amos was railing against injustice that was obvious.
3.) God was ultimately settling this issue- not the Israelis.
So while it's important to fight injustice, how do we do that without condemning and judging non-Christians- as Paul admonishes us not to do?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 1:02:27 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 1930
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
The passage is from Proverbs. God is talking to people who hold the power/ability to do certain things that can effect the life of others.
Proverbs teaches us how to live skillfully in the world. It teaches us that the beginning of wisdom is to fear the Lord.
Paul was not talking about working to make good laws. He was talking about not judging people who are lost based on their "actions". We don't need to judge them because they are already judges. Their "actions" don't effect their ability to be saved or made right in the sight of God.
He was not in any way, shape, form, or fashion saying don't work to make just laws that are pleasing in God's eyes and good for society when it is within your ability to do so.
In fact it's a sin to know the right thing to do and NOT DO IT>
James 4:17
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/7/2008 1:13:28 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 2:25:26 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
James 4:17
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
So why aren't you off in Africa helping poor kids get food? Obviously, it's infeasible to apply this on a broad level. The most we can do is to do the right thing when the opportunity comes to us. For some, that means making sure a beggar can get food for the evening (Yes, by actually buying him something to eat- rather than giving him money.) For others, it may mean making sure that a wife, a sister, a cousin, or whoever else can bring their baby to term and get an adoption.
However, I'm reminded of the AARP commercial where a guy goes around asking people "Help save social security!" and is collecting trillions of dollars when I think of the notion that James 4:17 asks us to correct all injustice. There is much bigger injustice going on in the world than a mere 1 million abortions a year; tens of millions of children die every year in African and Asia due to malnourishment. If we interpret James the way you would have us interpret it with regard to abortion, then all of us are sinning right now while we should be working to make sure that Asia and Africa get food- as well as asking the government to mandate hundreds of billions in taxpayer aid to fund all of it.
In reality, James was written in regards to correcting the injustices we see in front of us. He didn't intend for us to become Jesus's lobbyists.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 4/7/2008 2:37:56 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 3:36:36 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 6773
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
If we interpret James the way you would have us interpret it with regard to abortion, then all of us are sinning right now while we should be working to make sure that Asia and Africa get food- as well as asking the government to mandate hundreds of billions in taxpayer aid to fund all of it.
While I agree we should all do what we can to help the poor, the above assumes that the problems in Asia and Africa can be solved simply be 'sending food' - there is much reason to think this isn't so, or that just doing so would solve the problem.
You can send all the 'food' you want to Darfur for example, but this isn't going to change the situtation there.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 5:27:01 PM
|
|
|
ljmac
Posts: 878
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If we interpret James the way you would have us interpret it with regard to abortion, then all of us are sinning right now while we should be working to make sure that Asia and Africa get food- as well as asking the government to mandate hundreds of billions in taxpayer aid to fund all of it.
While I agree we should all do what we can to help the poor, the above assumes that the problems in Asia and Africa can be solved simply be 'sending food' - there is much reason to think this isn't so, or that just doing so would solve the problem.
You can send all the 'food' you want to Darfur for example, but this isn't going to change the situtation there.
I've got an idea. Let's export abortions. That will help solve the hunger problem in Asia and Africa.
I admit it. It isn't really my idea. Democrats long for the good old days when they could do just that. Reagan, GHWB and GWB stood up to them and said no. But if elected, then first thing our first (half) black president will do is send our money to Africa to abort poor black children.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/7/2008 5:39:33 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
I admit it. It isn't really my idea. Democrats long for the good old days when they could do just that. Reagan, GHWB and GWB stood up to them and said no. But if elected, then first thing our first (half) black president will do is send our money to Africa to abort poor black children.
Actually, over the past four years, Democrats have decided to change course. We don't want to export well-paying abortion jobs. Also, we need to provide more gore for the next hollywood movie, so we need the anti-abortion industry to crank out material full force.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/8/2008 9:19:16 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 1930
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
So why aren't you off in Africa helping poor kids get food? Obviously, it's infeasible to apply this on a broad level.
Being "in Africa" would be a sin for me because I can help them more being right where I am. Working to "pay" for those who are over there and sending "them" the money to buy them food.
Yes I support world hunger. Yes I support missionaries in Africa. But it's not limited to "just Africa'.
I am "able" to do this because God wants me to. When I know the right thing to do and don't do it then "I" am in sin.
quote:
as well as asking the government to mandate hundreds of billions in taxpayer aid to fund all of it.
Sorry but according to scripture this is not the role of the government. It's the role of the Christian to help people who are going without.
quote:
There is much bigger injustice going on in the world than a mere 1 million abortions a year
Your attitude is showing. You ARE a citizen of "this country" and it's "YOU" who view what is happening in the country "you" are a part of as - "mere".
How can you tell other countries what their problems are with "injustice" when your blind to what you are enabling right here?
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/8/2008 9:27:24 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/8/2008 10:06:16 AM
|
|
|
StephK
Posts: 1843
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
|
quote:
There is much bigger injustice going on in the world than a mere 1 million abortions a year
You do realize that is 1 million souls. Don't forget that you were once an unborn baby. Maybe if you saw the development from conception to birth you would see it. National Geographic has an excellent program showing the development of a baby from the moment of conception.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/8/2008 11:05:34 AM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
You do realize that is 1 million souls. Don't forget that you were once an unborn baby. Maybe if you saw the development from conception to birth you would see it. National Geographic has an excellent program showing the development of a baby from the moment of conception.
And don't forget that you were once a six year old kid. We take so many things for granted in this world. I take for granted that my mom didn't abort me; you take for granted that you got food on your plate.
quote:
Being "in Africa" would be a sin for me because I can help them more being right where I am. Working to "pay" for those who are over there and sending "them" the money to buy them food.
So why are you still typing? $3 buys a kid food for a day. Assuming you make $30/hour and it took you six minutes to type that post, you just cost a hungry African kid breakfast, lunch and dinner. Shame on you for sinning, according to your interpretation of James!
quote:
Sorry but according to scripture this is not the role of the government. It's the role of the Christian to help people who are going without.
I thought the government's job was to mandate morality and defend those that can't speak for themselves. Thus, we should pass as many laws as possible to regulate morality, which includes devoting a large portion of federal tax dollars to feeding starving people.
quote:
Your attitude is showing. You ARE a citizen of "this country" and it's "YOU" who view what is happening in the country "you" are a part of as - "mere".
How can you tell other countries what their problems are with "injustice" when your blind to what you are enabling right here?
By this logic, you are enabling lying by voting for politicians.
Paul was smart enough to realize that human beings can't control all of the sin in the world. The most we can do is control the sin in our own hearts, control the sin in the church, and then focus on the more important stuff- fulfill the great comission by loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Why don't we work on that part, instead? Instead of campaigning for the angriest anti-abortion advocate, why not work on helping young women get adoptions? Which would you think exemplifies the fruit of the spirit more- and the acts of sinful nature less?
quote:
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Gal. 5:19-25
I think that given what Paul wrote about in the acts of sinful nature- particularly hatred, discord, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy, it is very difficult for a Christian to get deeply involved in politics and avoid having to worry about the sinful nature.
So the best option is to- aside from cheerfully voting- just stay out of politics. If you do get involved in politics, please don't go around saying that people are bad Christians if they don't get that involved. At best, this only serves to stir up dissension in the Church.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 4/8/2008 11:17:27 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/8/2008 11:57:29 AM
|
|
|
ljmac
Posts: 878
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
James 4:17
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
So why aren't you off in Africa helping poor kids get food? Obviously, it's infeasible to apply this on a broad level. The most we can do is to do the right thing when the opportunity comes to us. For some, that means making sure a beggar can get food for the evening (Yes, by actually buying him something to eat- rather than giving him money.) For others, it may mean making sure that a wife, a sister, a cousin, or whoever else can bring their baby to term and get an adoption.
However, I'm reminded of the AARP commercial where a guy goes around asking people "Help save social security!" and is collecting trillions of dollars when I think of the notion that James 4:17 asks us to correct all injustice. There is much bigger injustice going on in the world than a mere 1 million abortions a year; tens of millions of children die every year in African and Asia due to malnourishment. If we interpret James the way you would have us interpret it with regard to abortion, then all of us are sinning right now while we should be working to make sure that Asia and Africa get food- as well as asking the government to mandate hundreds of billions in taxpayer aid to fund all of it.
In reality, James was written in regards to correcting the injustices we see in front of us. He didn't intend for us to become Jesus's lobbyists.
I wrote this a few posts ago.
"I don't think "all pro-choicers are just blood-thirsty murderers who hate babies," but some are, or such brutality wouldn't exist. Many are ignorant and prefer to remain that way. Many others are not ignorant, but are calloused and indifferent to the suffering of the innocent. "
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/8/2008 12:27:50 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 1930
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
So why are you still typing? $3 buys a kid food for a day. Assuming you make $30/hour and it took you six minutes to type that post, you just cost a hungry African kid breakfast, lunch and dinner. Shame on you for sinning, according to your interpretation of James!
I get paid "while" I post and when I sleep. I work my money.
To know the right thing to do and not do it is a sin. (that is not limited to our use of time or money - it includes our voices and our typed words on this forum. For me to remain silent while you disreguard human life would be for me a sin)
quote:
I thought the government's job was to mandate morality and defend those that can't speak for themselves. Thus, we should pass as many laws as possible to regulate morality, which includes devoting a large portion of federal tax dollars to feeding starving people.
Romans 13 - Study This
1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well. 4 The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience. 6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid so they can keep on doing the work God intended them to do.
I will allow God to speak for Himself when it comes to what he says the role of the gov. is to be. And of course we all know to murder the innocent is wrong.
quote:
By this logic, you are enabling lying by voting for politicians.
I don't vote for people I know who willingly lie.
quote:
Paul was smart enough to realize that human beings can't control all of the sin in the world. The most we can do is control the sin in our own hearts, control the sin in the church, and then focus on the more important stuff- fulfill the great comission by loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Paul spent a great deal of his time collecting money for suffering saints. God tells us that we are to speak up for those who have no voice and to seek justice for them. Your argument is full of hot air.
quote:
Why don't we work on that part, instead?
Jesus did both good works and gave people the message of hope. I do the same when I walk in his footsteps. I am capable of doing both.
quote:
Instead of campaigning for the angriest anti-abortion advocate, why not work on helping young women get adoptions? Which would you think exemplifies the fruit of the spirit more- and the acts of sinful nature less?
My church supports two baptist ophanages. Why don't you realize we are capable of doing many things.
quote:
I think that given what Paul wrote about in the acts of sinful nature- particularly hatred, discord, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy, it is very difficult for a Christian to get deeply involved in politics and avoid having to worry about the sinful nature.
What you think is of little concern to me. We as Christians have one living in us who is greater than he who is in the world. You may be so immature in your walk that you can't handle getting involved in politial matters but you are not the standard by which I measure others.
quote:
So the best option is to- aside from cheerfully voting- just stay out of politics. If you do get involved in politics, please don't go around saying that people are bad Christians if they don't get that involved. At best, this only serves to stir up dissension in the Church.
The topic is babies being called "punishment" when God says they are a blessing from Him. Chistians hate what God hates. God hates lies told about him.
BTW your participation in the current events political threads tell me that you involve yourself when you want to. It also appears to me that your involvement deals with your spending your time telling Christian they need to remain silent about the murder of the innocent.
quote:
In reality, James was written in regards to correcting the injustices we see in front of us.
And here you have contradicted yourself. We know abortion is in front of us. God through the pen of James tells us according to you and I agree to work to correct it - not remain passive.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/8/2008 12:40:30 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/8/2008 1:27:13 PM
|
|
|
StephK
Posts: 1843
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
|
quote:
And don't forget that you were once a six year old kid. We take so many things for granted in this world. I take for granted that my mom didn't abort me; you take for granted that you got food on your plate.
If you only knew how hard it was for my single mother who was very ill most of the time I was growing up you would know I don't take having my basic needs met for granted. I have seen God provide miraculously more than once when there was nothing and no earthly options available.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/8/2008 3:35:56 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1373
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I get paid "while" I post and when I sleep. I work my money.
I do, too. Likely as hard as you. Google "analyst" and "work hours" or "100 hours per week".
quote:
To know the right thing to do and not do it is a sin. (that is not limited to our use of time or money - it includes our voices and our typed words on this forum. For me to remain silent while you disreguard human life would be for me a sin)
Human life isn't our problem, it is God's problem. Our concern is simply to do God's will. Why make things complicated?
quote:
Romans 13 - Study This
1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well. 4 The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience. 6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid so they can keep on doing the work God intended them to do.
So in other words, if the government says abortion is ok, then we should choose to not participate in it, and help others avoid participating in it, but not turn into rabid chipmunks about what the government does.
quote:
I don't vote for people I know who willingly lie.
Certainly, Bush willingly lied to the public about Valerie Plame. And McCain has lied on occasion, too. Not to mention Clinton, Carter, Hillary, and essentially, every Republican or Democratic politician of the past 150 years.
quote:
Paul spent a great deal of his time collecting money for suffering saints. God tells us that we are to speak up for those who have no voice and to seek justice for them. Your argument is full of hot air.
Oh, we should. But, again, why choose to get in bed with the same people who claim that pro-abortion folks are murderers and should receive the death penalty? Why choose to get in bed with folks who favor showing graphic images to children- then contact the ACLJ and accuse police officers of unlawful arrests when they get caught?
quote:
My church supports two baptist ophanages. Why don't you realize we are capable of doing many things.
Couldn't you support a third one if you devoted more time to actually doing God's will, rather than campaigning?
quote:
What you think is of little concern to me. We as Christians have one living in us who is greater than he who is in the world. You may be so immature in your walk that you can't handle getting involved in politial matters but you are not the standard by which I measure others.
What you are concerned about really doesn't matter at the end of the day. What matters is what the Holy Spirit is instructing us to do through Paul- and that's that you have no place telling other Christians that they are bad people for not getting as involved in politics as you.
quote:
The topic is babies being called "punishment" when God says they are a blessing from Him. Chistians hate what God hates. God hates lies told about him.
Who is lying about God? And who cares what some politician off in Washington says?
quote:
BTW your participation in the current events political threads tell me that you involve yourself when you want to. It also appears to me that your involvement deals with your spending your time telling Christian they need to remain silent about the murder of the innocent.
A Christian website shouldn't be a place where everybody sits together and agree that group XYZ is evil, and as a result, I find myself playing devil's advocate.
I don't want people to be silent on abortion- I just want people to stop seeing the same overused arguments day in and day out. If you want change, come up with something new.
quote:
And here you have contradicted yourself. We know abortion is in front of us. God through the pen of James tells us according to you and I agree to work to correct it - not remain passive.
I think your mischaracterization here does a good job of showing why your interpretation of the Bible is inconsistent. If I see someone having an abortion right in front of me, I will try to stop them. When I see a homeless guy in front of me, I make sure he gets food and knows about the homeless shelter my church runs.
You feel that, beyond stopping people you encounter who are trying to have abortions, that we should use the government to pass laws against this. However, you do not feel that the government should prevent other injustices that Jesus instructs us to correct- like hunger.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/9/2008 7:47:39 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 1930
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
blessedinnyc,
Your youth and inexperience shows.
quote:
I don't want people to be silent on abortion- I just want people to stop seeing the same overused arguments day in and day out. If you want change, come up with something new.
It sure shoulds like you want us to! The agrument is not overused. Come to Miss. my dear and I will show you how "we Chrisitans" have worked to make abortion in our state the hardest to get.
There are ways to work around RvW that make it extremely difficult to get an abortion. Such as a 24 hour wait after meeting with a doctor inorder to have one. Making places that can preform an abortions on demand live up to such strict guidelines that only 1 is able to exist in the entire state. Both parents must give concent for someone under 18 to have one.
Now when you begin to put all that together you can see that for MOST people in our state that is going to require an out of town "stay". Not only must you pay for an abotion but now you must plan an extra day off work/out of school and pay for a hotel room and meals. For many now that means you drive well over 100 miles and at over $3.00 per gallon that added cost to the individual. Not only that but it requires that you bring someone else with you to drive you. Meaning "two" of you must take off work/out of school, pay for a hotel and eat.
See honey. Some of us do know how to think wisely about this matter and take concrete steps to insure that it's going to be very hard on the individual who decides it's time to kill that baby because they view the baby as punishment or inconvenient.
I think you are a liberal who simply does not "want" Christians to be involved in "justice for the unborn". That's what your actions say to me.
___________
Now as far as "this topic" goes. Words have meaning. To lable a baby as "punishment" is a huge deal here.
Remember when Bill Clinton decided to tell the world he didn't have sexual relations with Monica. Now an entire generation of folks don't view oral sex as sex. Simply because "one person" went public and tried to change the meaning of the word "sex".
When people look at innocent baby and decide it's OK to call them a "punishment" then those people have some deep moral problems.
quote:
You feel that, beyond stopping people you encounter who are trying to have abortions, that we should use the government to pass laws against this.
Prov. 6
16 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
Remember Romans 13 and the reason God ordained the government. It was to punish evil doers.
quote:
However, you do not feel that the government should prevent other injustices that Jesus instructs us to correct- like hunger
Hunger in and of itself in scripture is not an injustice. In FACT the bible calls hunger "good" if it forces a man to work. And a command to the church is that if a man does not work nor should he eat - which means he will go hungry. Hunger in and of itself is not injustice. Nor is a full belly justice.
quote:
A Christian website shouldn't be a place where everybody sits together and agree that group XYZ is evil, and as a result, I find myself playing devil's advocate.
You said it "Devil's advocate". Yes we Christians do sit around and agree that murder of the innocent is evil. Yes we do this because God says it is. That's something we "Christians" have in common. We hate what God hates. God hates the sin of murder of the innocent. So do we who are born again because we have the "same spirit" living within us.
we also sit around and agree that adultry, stealing, being a false witness and so on are wrong because God said it's wrong.
BTW Obama is a "false witness" because he said a baby is punishment. That's telling a falsehood on another. God said a baby is a blessing from Him.
I don't "play devil's advocate" when it comes to saying that God is wrong.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/9/2008 8:23:19 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/10/2008 3:02:55 PM
|
|
|
adelphi_sky
Posts: 68
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
|
I tell you. As an African American, reading some of these posts makes me almost as upset as watching the movie Mississippi Burning. And people can't accept that fact that we have a very long way to go as far as understanding each other. I'm sorry, but to say that there are many parallels between slavery and abortion is just plain ignorance. What is obvious is that slavery deals with lives OUTSIDE of the womb. Another obvious observation would tell you you that slavery was economic. Abortion is not about economics. Yes, slaves were murdered. But unlike unborn babies. Often times the choice was not hard to kill a slave. Especially if they got sick on a slave ship. Sometimes they were thrown overboard just because there were too many. The choice to have an abortion takes much thought and grief for the individual. Trust me, I have a friend who went through the ordeal. Slavery was sanctioned by Christians. Abortion was not unless I'm mistaken. The offspring of slaves were highly valued and encouraged because it was a sign of wealth for the slave owner. Abortion doesn't encourage birth at all. I can go on and on about there NOT being many parallels between slavery and abortion.
Also, PW13 states " No matter how someone may feel about their spouse.....the law does not give the right to murder them on demand. (that is what RvW is about murder on demand of a certain group of people) "
While RvW may be an angry and bitter old man, it's a far reach to ascribe him to inciting murder in peoples' hearts. To make a statement like is not only reckless, it is hateful and slanderous as well. Two wrongs don't make a right. Unless you know the man personally and have witnessed a murder based off of his order, then by all means call the police. Because that means he is an accessory to murder. If not, you hold no court to convict him as you have with that statement. Have you no mercy or compassion or even pity for someone who has lost hope? Check your own heart.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/10/2008 5:34:43 PM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 1163
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
|
quote:
It sure shoulds like you want us to! The agrument is not overused. Come to Miss.
Stopt right there. From Mississippi!! Oh my Gosh. I know your neighborhood. My husband is from Mississippi. I was just there in summer 2007.
John Grisham, the author of "Time to Kill", etc. from Mississippi was just on a program on Channel 2 PBS. How the State Gov't has became CRUEL. He is speaking against them. He is also a Christian!
I got pictures of the babies in Mississippi! I took so many, I was amazed at how good they treated the babies that are here!
How do you upload pics up here!
quote:
I will show you how "we Chrisitans" have worked to make abortion in our state the hardest to get.
I got pics of how "we Chrisitans" have worked to make everything hard to get!
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 4/10/2008 5:53:33 PM >
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/10/2008 5:39:11 PM
|
|
|
SuspenseWriter
Posts: 206
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
While RvW may be an angry and bitter old man, it's a far reach to ascribe him to inciting murder in peoples' hearts. To make a statement like is not only reckless, it is hateful and slanderous as well. Two wrongs don't make a right. Unless you know the man personally and have witnessed a murder based off of his order, then by all means call the police. Because that means he is an accessory to murder. If not, you hold no court to convict him as you have with that statement. Have you no mercy or compassion or even pity for someone who has lost hope? Check your own heart.
Um..."RvW" aren't the initals of a person. It's shorthand for "Roe vs. Wade", the landmark 1973 Supreme Court case that legalized the practice of abortion.
Just sayin'. Carry on.
_____________________________
John Robinson
writer of suspense...obviously!
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Babies are Punishment - 4/10/2008 5:56:16 PM
|
|
|
ljmac
Posts: 878
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
I tell you. As an African American, reading some of these posts makes me almost as upset as watching the movie Mississippi Burning. And people can't accept that fact that we have a very long way to go as far as understanding each other. I'm sorry, but to say that there are many parallels between slavery and abortion is just plain ignorance. What is obvious is that slavery deals with lives OUTSIDE of the womb. Another obvious observation would tell you you that slavery was economic. Abortion is not about economics. Yes, slaves were murdered. But unlike unborn babies. Often times the choice was not hard to kill a slave. Especially if they got sick on a slave ship. Sometimes they were thrown overboard just because there were too many. The choice to | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
