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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/7/2008 10:17:24 AM
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Evangel70
Posts: 242
Joined: 10/28/2006
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quote:
I believe that God has called some Christians to even be in political office and to use that position inorder to help prevent decay.
How would a Christian be able to maintain his/her integrity as a follower of Jesus and 1) Get elected or 2) Remain Christ-like while in office? For example, a follower of Christ would not be able to "smear" his/her opponent or lie about what his/her opponent did or did not do. They would not be able to make promises they could not keep or promise to change legislation over which they had no power. They would have to be extra vigilent to guard what they say, how they act, what their campaign members say and do, etc. because it all reflects their "Chrisitianity".
While it may be statistically possible to not compromise your belief system in order to become politically involved, I would maintain that it would take a "Paul" or "Peter" to pull that off. I have yet to see a "Christian" politician that represented the Christian faith in a manner that was "above reproach". Keep in mind that George W. Bush, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Dick Cheney, Barach Obama and John McCain, among others, ALL claim to be "Christians" yet their "politics" are about as different as day and night.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/7/2008 12:19:24 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 741
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
ljmac,
 Forgive me. It was more than uncharitable.
Perhaps, one of them is from Bangladesh?
Accepted.
I'm quite sure she is. And I believe she lived in one of the orphanages run by Mother Teresa's nuns.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/7/2008 12:33:12 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 741
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Evangel70, I couldn't agree with you more! You don't change things from the outside in, you change them from the inside out.
When Peter and John started preaching the gospel they went to the temple but not to tell the priests, the Pharisees, the Sadducees that they were wrong but rather to proclaim the truth for all to hear so that they could make the right choice. They did it by preaching the truth.
Same thing goes for today. Even if Roe v Wade was overturned (highly unlikely by the way) do you really think that would stop abortions? If you recall abortions were going on long before they became legal. No the way you change society is by change the minds of the people around you, in your community. You do this by lovingly presenting the truth and allow them to make the right choice.
Now when it comes to politics and the presidency I believe the best thing to do is to vote for the person who will do the best for the country, who ever that may be. Sometimes this means voting for the person who will do the least amount of damage.
As far as I can tell the Democrats want to increase taxes but any economics expert will tell you that when a society is headed for or in a recession tax increases only serve to make the recession worse.
Also lets take a look at how democrats run things. They have been in control of the congress for the last year and what has happened in this last year? Unemployment has risen, the stock market has fallen, the housing market has collapsed and then there was the sub prime mortgage fiasco. People want to try and blame Bush for all this but when it comes down to it Congress is responsible for a lot more than people like to admit.
And voting independent doesn't send a message to anyone. Both parties already know that Conservatives are not happy this election year but they don't give a rat's behind. If all Conservatives vote independent it would guarantee a Democratic victory.
Anyone who understands abortion issues and Death Roe knows overturning it would not "stop abortion." That is a common misconception spread by abortion lovers attempting to cause panic among the ignorant.
Overturning Death Roe would leave abortion up to the states, exactly as it was before. Prior to Death Roe there were hundreds of thousands of legal abortions. Places that loved abortion like NY had a thriving killing business as they do today. Other places more interested in justice had many restrictions on it.
Overturning Death Roe also says something about us as a people and a nation. Do we really want to be a nation that is so unjust that we offer no protection to the innocent?
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/7/2008 12:42:32 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 652
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
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quote:
Anyone who understands abortion issues and Death Roe knows overturning it would not "stop abortion." That is a common misconception spread by abortion lovers attempting to cause panic among the ignorant.
Can a preisdent even stop it, doesnt it have to be the Supreme Court?
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/7/2008 12:55:46 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 521
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Anyone who understands abortion issues and Death Roe knows overturning it would not "stop abortion." That is a common misconception spread by abortion lovers attempting to cause panic among the ignorant.
Can a preisdent even stop it, doesnt it have to be the Supreme Court?
Yup. Either the decision must be overturned or a constitutional ammendment must be passed and then ratified by enough states to make it the new law.
However unless we start talking to people and working to change their attitudes this is very, very unlikely to happen.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/7/2008 1:55:51 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1814
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
I would maintain that it would take a "Paul" or "Peter" to pull that off.
Remember Paul and Peter were sinners who were saved just like you and I. They simply did what God told them to do. They were not "greater" than many of our Christians today. Their role was simply differant. They were simply slaves to Christ like the rest of us are.
One of my old pastors was in political power. He is the reason it's so very hard to get an abortion here in Mississippi. (we have the strictest abortion laws in the country. He may not have been able to overturn RvW but he has certainly put a dent in the number of abortions that occur in this state)
Daniel is a great example in scripture of someone who was a statesman yet didn't allow it to corrupt his morals or have him do things that God was displeased with.
quote:
How would a Christian be able to maintain his/her integrity as a follower of Jesus and 1) Get elected or 2) Remain Christ-like while in office? For example, a follower of Christ would not be able to "smear" his/her opponent or lie about what his/her opponent did or did not do. They would not be able to make promises they could not keep or promise to change legislation over which they had no power. They would have to be extra vigilent to guard what they say, how they act, what their campaign members say and do, etc. because it all reflects their "Chrisitianity".
Believe it or not it's not very hard if you are a person of conviction. I don't see it any differantly than I do being a business person. We run up on the same kinds of issues.
quote:
I have yet to see a "Christian" politician that represented the Christian faith in a manner that was "above reproach".
I know of two whom I would take a stand for because I know them very well. I also know the reputation they have among their peers. Their peers "agree" that they are fine Christian men. I am sure there are others but I cannot take a stand for them because I don't know them well enough.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/7/2008 2:05:41 PM >
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/7/2008 5:53:56 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 741
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Anyone who understands abortion issues and Death Roe knows overturning it would not "stop abortion." That is a common misconception spread by abortion lovers attempting to cause panic among the ignorant.
Can a preisdent even stop it, doesnt it have to be the Supreme Court?
Supreme Court action is the most likely scenario to killing Death Roe. The President has more control over Roe than any elected official as the President appoints SC justices. But it is a complex situation. A majority of Democrats can kill a pro-life appointment to Federal courts and they have done that many times. Sometimes one doesn't know how a judge may rule on an abortion issue.
Let's not forget that GWB has been very successful in battling abortion in issues not directly related to the courts. Mexico City policy, UN policy and the Conner Peterson law are a few examples.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/9/2008 6:39:24 PM
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lpt
Posts: 144
Joined: 6/8/2006
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
IMO the greatest tragedy of the religious right is that they have reduced Christianity to a political party whose main concern are overturning Roe v. Wade and keeping gays from getting civil rights....
"Gays" have all the civil rights anyone else has. Some people just don't want them to have special rights that go beyond what the rest of us have. And we don't want "marriage" to be redefined to reflect their misunderstanding of the world.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/9/2008 6:48:32 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 521
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lpt
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
IMO the greatest tragedy of the religious right is that they have reduced Christianity to a political party whose main concern are overturning Roe v. Wade and keeping gays from getting civil rights....
"Gays" have all the civil rights anyone else has. Some people just don't want them to have special rights that go beyond what the rest of us have. And we don't want "marriage" to be redefined to reflect their misunderstanding of the world.
I think the problem largely comes down to a couple of different things. One, as Evangel70 put it, Christians have become a politcal party in league with the Republicans. The other problem is our hesitance to step up and chastise those of our number who get in front of a camera and say something stupid.
We need to break off from being beholden to the republican party and get back to doing what's right in regards to voting. Find the best person for the job and encourage others to vote for that person regardless of what party they belong to. We have to make it known that we are not a political group we are Christians and that means something wildly different.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/11/2008 4:26:20 PM
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wtsyes
Posts: 8
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline
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Although I agree with your point that he has had many different views over the years, I do think that his base views are more toward conservative christian views. He may say things at one point or vote another that lead to believe differently, but if given the choice to pick conservative christian or a variation off to one side or another, he would choose conservative christian. We need to pray for him and lobby him to line up with the beliefs that we have, and we should line up with God.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/12/2008 5:26:21 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3316
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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I disagree, the Bible says whatever you do,i it to the glory of God........................... Besides we are christians who can vote, and have a great duty to do the think that fits with a Christian and the morals given to us by the word and the Holy Spirit. We have a voice thank the good Lord. Early Christians did not have a " Vote Nero" choices. We have been given much, and much is expected.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
I think the problem largely comes down to a couple of different things. One, as Evangel70 put it, Christians have become a politcal party in league with the Republicans. The other problem is our hesitance to step up and chastise those of our number who get in front of a camera and say something stupid.
We need to break off from being beholden to the republican party and get back to doing what's right in regards to voting. Find the best person for the job and encourage others to vote for that person regardless of what party they belong to. We have to make it known that we are not a political group, we are Christians and that means something wildly different.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! 
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/12/2008 5:33:33 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/12/2008 5:28:23 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I think that the conservatives will end up voting and voting big for McCain, not because they think he is great, but that he is the lessor of two evils.
There is just no way I could vote for Clinton or Obama, nor is their anyway I could not vote.
Thanks
RC
If I were an American, I would vote Ron Paul.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/12/2008 7:19:18 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 242
Joined: 10/28/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Besides we are christians who can vote, and have a great duty to do the think that fits with a Christian and the morals given to us by the word and the Holy Spirit. We have a voice thank the good Lord.
No one is saying we shouldn't vote. I agree with you, that we live in a unique time and nation that allows us to have a voice, however small, in how we are governed and by whom. It would be a shame not to exercise that priviledge.
Where Christians go wrong is when they judge another believer's faith on something as subjective as political choices. One Christian may believe that the only important issues are where a candidate stands on abortion and gay marriage, and another Christian may believe that where a candidate stands on issue like the ending the war in Iraq, finding a solution to an economic recession, and becoming better stewards of the planet are the most important issues. You may disagree with my choice and I may disagree with yours but BOTH of us should feel free to vote for whomever we please without having their walk with God questioned.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/13/2008 10:50:02 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 521
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
Besides we are christians who can vote, and have a great duty to do the think that fits with a Christian and the morals given to us by the word and the Holy Spirit. We have a voice thank the good Lord.
No one is saying we shouldn't vote. I agree with you, that we live in a unique time and nation that allows us to have a voice, however small, in how we are governed and by whom. It would be a shame not to exercise that priviledge.
Where Christians go wrong is when they judge another believer's faith on something as subjective as political choices. One Christian may believe that the only important issues are where a candidate stands on abortion and gay marriage, and another Christian may believe that where a candidate stands on issue like the ending the war in Iraq, finding a solution to an economic recession, and becoming better stewards of the planet are the most important issues. You may disagree with my choice and I may disagree with yours but BOTH of us should feel free to vote for whomever we please without having their walk with God questioned.
I both salute and thank you for the wisdom you just wrote.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/13/2008 1:11:55 PM
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dinomax55
Posts: 259
Joined: 6/22/2007
From: O-H-I-O
Status: offline
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Good posts all.. I enjoyed 'reading' your conversation.
I agree that Christians should not be seen as a political party, or even political capital. It's important that we as believers remember or responsibility is not to affect the government, but through sharing the gospel to change people's hearts.
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/13/2008 1:15:04 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1521
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I think that the conservatives will end up voting and voting big for McCain, not because they think he is great, but that he is the lessor of two evils.
There is just no way I could vote for Clinton or Obama, nor is their anyway I could not vote.
Thanks
RC
I agree.
_____________________________
Stephanie
"If one starts with an impersonal beginning, the answer to morals eventually turns out to be the assertion that there are no morals." ~Francis Schaeffer
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/14/2008 12:00:09 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 741
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
Besides we are christians who can vote, and have a great duty to do the think that fits with a Christian and the morals given to us by the word and the Holy Spirit. We have a voice thank the good Lord.
No one is saying we shouldn't vote. I agree with you, that we live in a unique time and nation that allows us to have a voice, however small, in how we are governed and by whom. It would be a shame not to exercise that priviledge.
Where Christians go wrong is when they judge another believer's faith on something as subjective as political choices. One Christian may believe that the only important issues are where a candidate stands on abortion and gay marriage, and another Christian may believe that where a candidate stands on issue like the ending the war in Iraq, finding a solution to an economic recession, and becoming better stewards of the planet are the most important issues. You may disagree with my choice and I may disagree with yours but BOTH of us should feel free to vote for whomever we please without having their walk with God questioned.
An aborted child can't grow up to protest war, can't help make the economy grow, and can't appeciate wildlife. By denying someone the right to live, you steal from them all the things you say are important. A child without the right to live has no rights at all.
Anyone who supports a candidate who believes in legalized abortion should not be surprised if their walk questioned. 50 million dead and they haven't had enough.
< Message edited by ljmac -- 4/14/2008 1:01:28 AM >
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/14/2008 9:21:42 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1814
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Anyone who supports a candidate who believes in legalized abortion should not be surprised if their walk questioned.
Amen!
Or destroying the insitution of "family" that God ordained.
I believe people who profess to be Christians but are also closet liberals "wish" we Christians would be silent about these terrible sins in our own country. I think some Christians place more faith in the government than they do God and that is why they want us to remain "silent" over certain issues. They "trust" the liberal democrats to be their provider and not God. They don't want to follow God's way.
I also think some people want us to remain silent about abotion because they fear if those babies are born into this world it could mean "they" lose some of their benefits.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/14/2008 9:31:01 AM >
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/14/2008 9:34:53 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3316
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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When your dead your dead. If you are going through hardtimes you have hope. I do not even get the two being compared. I wonde, out of sight out of mind. I wonder how many people think of the pain babies go through in the murder process. It must be terrible, especially the brain sucking one. All of the liberals, obama, hillbill, and others whine about torture being inhumane and they think it is ok to suck out the brains of a little baby. And the othe methods of posiioning them and whaching thier body apart. Where is the logic in that? It makes me sick! How can someone be agianst one and not the other?
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
Besides we are christians who can vote, and have a great duty to do the think that fits with a Christian and the morals given to us by the word and the Holy Spirit. We have a voice thank the good Lord.
No one is saying we shouldn't vote. I agree with you, that we live in a unique time and nation that allows us to have a voice, however small, in how we are governed and by whom. It would be a shame not to exercise that priviledge.
Where Christians go wrong is when they judge another believer's faith on something as subjective as political choices. One Christian may believe that the only important issues are where a candidate stands on abortion and gay marriage, and another Christian may believe that where a candidate stands on issue like the ending the war in Iraq, finding a solution to an economic recession, and becoming better stewards of the planet are the most important issues. You may disagree with my choice and I may disagree with yours but BOTH of us should feel free to vote for whomever we please without having their walk with God questioned.
An aborted child can't grow up to protest war, can't help make the economy grow, and can't appeciate wildlife. By denying someone the right to live, you steal from them all the things you say are important. A child without the right to live has no rights at all.
Anyone who supports a candidate who believes in legalized abortion should not be surprised if their walk questioned. 50 million dead and they haven't had enough.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/14/2008 9:58:44 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 521
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Anyone who supports a candidate who believes in legalized abortion should not be surprised if their walk questioned.
Amen!
Or destroying the insitution of "family" that God ordained.
I believe people who profess to be Christians but are also closet liberals "wish" we Christians would be silent about these terrible sins in our own country. I think some Christians place more faith in the government than they do God and that is why they want us to remain "silent" over certain issues. They "trust" the liberal democrats to be their provider and not God. They don't want to follow God's way.
I also think some people want us to remain silent about abotion because they fear if those babies are born into this world it could mean "they" lose some of their benefits.
That's a fairly arrogant attitude. One could also argue that any who supports a candidate who believes in giving the most tax breaks to the wealthy and no help to the poor shouldn't be surprised if and when their walk is questioned. Tit for tat and all that you know.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/14/2008 10:18:21 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1814
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
One could also argue that any who supports a candidate who believes in giving the most tax breaks to the wealthy and no help to the poor shouldn't be surprised if and when their walk is questioned.
You can't give "tax breaks" to people who don't pay taxes.
You also can't say that the Bush is NOT sending out money to the poor when the tax checks are going into the mail pretty soon.
I on the other hand won't be getting a check. It appears that I pay too much in taxes.
What I stated above is "common knowledge" for tax payers. We know because we are the ones who are paying the bills for people who "don't work".
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/14/2008 10:24:49 AM >
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/14/2008 11:45:27 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 521
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
One could also argue that any who supports a candidate who believes in giving the most tax breaks to the wealthy and no help to the poor shouldn't be surprised if and when their walk is questioned.
You can't give "tax breaks" to people who don't pay taxes.
You also can't say that the Bush is NOT sending out money to the poor when the tax checks are going into the mail pretty soon.
I on the other hand won't be getting a check. It appears that I pay too much in taxes.
What I stated above is "common knowledge" for tax payers. We know because we are the ones who are paying the bills for people who "don't work".
The point I was making is that your argument can be turned against you. There are people here who have expressed the opinion that there should be NO governmental programs to help the poor. Since the Bible advocates helping the poor one could then question the walk of those people because they don't seem to be all that interested in helping the people God said to.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/14/2008 12:29:01 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1521
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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There are limits in the Bible who were to receive help. I believe the primary responsibility was for the fathers to provide and then family members provide for their own. The truth is the father's role has been usurped in a lot of these programs to the detriment of the family. It has not helped to get people through a tough time but it has instead fostered generational dependence to stay in their circumstances.
_____________________________
Stephanie
"If one starts with an impersonal beginning, the answer to morals eventually turns out to be the assertion that there are no morals." ~Francis Schaeffer
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RE: Republicans shattered this year - 4/17/2008 12:23:19 PM
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legalnicki
Posts: 50
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
IMO the greatest tragedy of the religious right is that they have reduced Christianity to a political party whose main concern are overturning Roe v. Wade and keeping gays from getting civil rights. To the un-churched, the religious right has as much credibility as Ralph Nader or Ron Paul and their followers.
As for McCain or any other politician having different viewpoints over the years, I'm amazed that people are surprized by this. Do you have the same views that you had 10 or 20 or even 5 years ago? I know very few people who do not adapt their views as they grow, mature or simply become more informed about the things they used to believe were true (or not true). I would be very suspect of any politician who still holds the same views they had 20 or 30 years ago.
.....
Perhaps if we followed the example of the early church, we wouldn't need to place our faith in a political party to do what only God can. 
Amen to this post, on all points.
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