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ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies

My apologies to all who replied to my comments...I've had to go through a difficult certification process for my business and it was all consuming this week. I haven't had any time to read here at all.

I'll hit a few things tonight, and return tomorrow.

From Eph 4....

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1-No scripture doesn't say, "Only God has immortality." *(see NOTE below)
2- If a "translator" comes to the text with an a priori belief...
3- I don't just accept things. I get my doctrine from the Bible.

Point #1:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
I think this verse says everything quite clear on this point. I don't see how anyone could refute that.

God is a spirit. We have both spirit and physical bodies. Our physical body dies.

Our bodies aren't immortal:
Agreed...yet you state that our souls are later on in this posting. How do you handle the verse that tells us that only God has immortality?

I've seen this argument many times, and because one believes the soul is immortal, there is only one explanation that makes it work...Scripture must certainly be referring only to the body, not the soul/spirit, because our soul is immortal.

This interpretation shows how each of us interprets the Bible according our beliefs. If only God has immortality, it is impossible for any of us to have an immortal soul. Otherwise, this verse has no place in the Bible. Yet, those who believe in the immortal soul cannot accept this, therefore, they must find a way to explain that the soul IS immortal in spite of the fact that the Scriptures clearly says that only God is immortal.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
If the soul is immortal, why then do we need a resurrection? We are already in heaven.

Our souls aren't in heaven if we are alive on earth. We will be resurrected because God promises that.

The discussion of the immortal soul rests on what happens after we die. I ask for an orange, you throw me an apple.

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
But what then do we do with this verse...
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Men can't kill our souls. Our souls survive the death of the body:
As I asked before...how do you handle the verse that says that only God is immortal?

Hezekiah said, “But thou hast in love to my soul (nephesh) delivered it from the pit of corruption” (Isaiah 38:17).

“saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God” (Revelation 6:9).
Revelation is symbolic. When it suits people, a literal interpretation is taken. Consider this verse...Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Can blood talk? No...again, this is symbolic...and pretty in the same way.
To take that verse from Revelation as literal, this means that those who died for His word were now placed under an altar and have to wait there crying out until the resurrection.

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
Let me explain. All of us, (me included) have a certain set of beliefs which were taught to us. These beliefs determine how we read/interpret the Bible. Yet we all say the exact same thing (see points 2 & 3 above). We all get our doctrine from the Bible. May I ask this...how is it we all believe something different if we get our beliefs/doctrines from the Bible. I get my beliefs from the Bible too.

Interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Exactly my point! Perhaps you would care to address the major problem that now presents itself...I've been on forums for over 10 years. I've talked to many different people of many different beliefs, and they all say the same thing as you just said, and they all believe they have the truth, just as you and I also believe we do. Yet, we have how many different beliefs??? Look at how many are wrong. Look at how many claim that they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I can boldly claim that almost all of them are not guided by the Holy Spirit because they all disagree, something which is impossible if the Holy Spirit IS guiding them. Something is definitely wrong with this picture. I'll tell you what is wrong...no one is concerned that they might be the one in error. The only interest is in proving others to be wrong by presenting a better "legal argument." Therefore, the best communicator is proven to be correct, which is not the way to settle a discussion of the Scriptures.

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
The problem is, although we all claim that the Bible is our foundation, each Church has a different foundational belief to their wall that determines how they will interpret the Bible. If I believe the 10 Commandments still stand, I will see the Bible/NT in a much different light than one who believes they have been abolished. We cannot help but arrive at different conclusions, as our conclusions must be colored by the foundation that has been put in place.

Yeah, well, are you going to tell us that you've found the one true church? I don't believe I'm relying on a church for truth. I'm relying on the Holy Spirit to guide me in my understanding of the Bible.
We all feel that we belong to the "right" Church. Otherwise, we wouldn't be attending that Church. How many are concerned that their Church may be wrong? Almost no one.

If you were taught any of what you believe by attending Church, then you have relied on your Church for your beliefs, because they colored your beliefs by teaching you. It is the same for all of us. I don't know anyone who studied the Bible, figured out their entire set of beliefs, then found a Church that agreed with them.

And, as I mentioned in my previous paragraph...you rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you, and so does everyone who stands in disagreement with you on these forums and on many other forums. Again...do you see the problem with saying that? Obviously, the wrong spirit is influencing many of us. How can you be right when someone who stands in disagreement with you also claims to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit and also claims to be correct in his interpretation. Who can discern who is correct? WE all need to be concerned that we stand in error. Is there anyone who is reading this besides me who is concerned by such great numbers of people claiming to have truth yet all disagree??? Who wants to be certain that they are correct, even if it mean they are truly wrong? Anyone willing to step out on that limb? It is doubtful.

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
Any such discussion of any doctrinal belief can only be solved by going back to the foundation upon which the belief is built. We must all search to see if our foundation is correct. There are over 400 denominations. Only one can be right.

Or none. Generally, the churches that claim to be the one true church are further from truth than the rest!
I think we can agree on this point!

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
None of us know which Church that is, but we all believe that our Church is correct. There is now one problem...if you believe you are right, and I believe I am right, and we believe something different, and another person walks into the room who believes yet something else entirely different...what do we do now? Point fingers at each other and argue over who is right? That won't solve anything...which is why there are endless pages of discussions on various topics on this and many other boards. So what do we do now?

We go to scripture and rely on the Holy Spirit! And you will still claim that your interpretation is right.

No, I claim as you do that I think my beliefs are correct. But, are you concerned at all that you may be wrong? I certainly am. I would sincerely like to find a group of believers who feel this way, and feel it so strongly that they are willing to dig very deep into the Scriptures in search of the truth, as there is so much error out there that we should all be trembling with fear.

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
I say we look for the foundation, let's dig down to the bottom and work our way up. The problem is, no one really knows how to determine what the real foundation is.

The Bible is very clear about our foundation:

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11)
Agreed? Why then is there so much disagreement between those who claim that this is their foundation. As I've repeated several times...THIS IS A PROBLEM.

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
I'm going to start in one place for the moment. The Bible says that only God has immortality. What do we do with that statement? How can we be immortal (souls) if only God has immortality (and yes, I have already quoted the verse I was told did not exist). And how can the soul be destroyed if it is immortal. These two verses that I have quoted in this posting seem to be irrefutable, yet I know someone will find an explanation, so let's hear it please.

The Bible indicates that the soul of man is immortal. It is his body that goes to the grave. The body appears to be sleeping; only God can see our to spirits.

James says the body without the spirit is dead not the spirit itself:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)


The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise the Lord that seek him; your heart shall live forever.(Psalm 22:26)
Yet the Scriptures say that only God is immortal. We cannot get away from that fact no matter what we say, do, or believe. If our spirit/soul is immortal, then we are immortal...period. Our consciousness would exist in our soul making us immortal as that would be the very core of our existence, the body would merely be a temporary house. If any part of us is immortal, then we are immortal.


* NOTE: I've just had surgery, I'm on medication for pain, and I've not slept well. I hope some Christian apologists will respond when I'm not able.
I hope all is well, and may everyone pray for your recovery!

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ORIGINAL: HisPriest

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ORIGINAL: MND88

Hi everyone. I have always been taught that after we die we either got to heaven or to hell. Recently a friend of mines that is part of the SDA religion told me about soul sleep. I just wanted to know what biblical backup can I use to show that after we die, there is no soul sleep? Thanks everyone

Is a good think that you ask, but is even better if you research the word of God. But first of all you need to pray so the Holy Spirit prepare your heart and your mind to take the truth; I notice that what you want to know is something to prove your friend wrong, instead you should be looking for truth don't you think so?

What is the soul? according to the word of God

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. {of the dust...: Heb. dust of the ground}

dust + breath of life = soul

without the breath of life we are not soul
Or breath of life without the dust there is no soul

Notice that God give the dust in the form of Adam the breath of life, He did not give him a mind, He give adam life, and when we die, this breath of life goes back to the one who gave it; there is no "spiritual mind" that goes to heaven! just the power of God that keep us alive, returns to God

Notice that every soul that dies the spirit goes back to God, good or evil!

God is in heaven, think about it evil cannot be in heaven

The Bible teaches us the soul is not immortal

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ORIGINAL: Aphobos

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ORIGINAL: meerkat

This argument seems to be a theology or view rather than quoting what scripture actually says.

Actually, it is both. The statement outlines my theology, which in turn is derived from what scripture teaches. My comments were intended to clarify a misunderstanding in a previous post (one in which scripture references were also lacking). If you would like, I can provide the biblical support for my position. That is, if you're willing to consider the evidence with an open mind.

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Some questions/comments regarding your statements:-

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People don't suffer eternal punishment for rejecting Christ. Rather, they do so on account of their sin.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death.

Death, in scripture, is a separation of sorts. In physical death, the soul is separated from the body. In spiritual death, man is separated from God.

God said to Adam: "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen 3:16b-17)

Did Adam fall dead in the day that he ate of the tree? No. So, then, either God is a liar or death in that instance was not physical. In fact, it was a spiritual death. Adam was separated spiritually from God -- a fact that is underscored by his expulsion from Eden.

In Him,

~Aphobos

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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies

Bob, you certainly missed the point. God did not say whether the death would be physical or spiritual, yet most people assume the original meaning meant a physical death, which is why there is so much confusion about this verse.

Since he didn't die a physical death within that 24 hour period, it is now assumed that the verse implied a spiritual death. The verse I quoted offers a "possible" although not a definite explanation in regards to the physical death, since it tells us that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord.

There are numerous instances in the Bible where the fulfillment of a verse has a dual application. I suspect that this verse may be one of those.

I'm going to step out on a limb and question the spiritual death theory for a moment. Adam sinned, and sin separates us from God. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins. If the real meaning of this verse is that Adam died a spiritual death, then Adam took the punishment himself.

You and I and the rest of the world are sinners. Are we now spiritually dead? Wouldn't this imply that there is no hope for us? I must question this interpretation. I can see how one might imply that this could be a possible conclusion, but is it accurate? The more I think about it, the more I doubt it. I hope to hear some of your explanations in regards to this matter.

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You and I and the rest of the world are sinners. Are we now spiritually dead? Wouldn't this imply that there is no hope for us? I must question this interpretation. I can see how one might imply that this could be a possible conclusion, but is it accurate? The more I think about it, the more I doubt it. I hope to hear some of your explanations in regards to this matter.

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1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.