RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (Full Version)

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earthless -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 7:18:25 PM)

It is a fallacy to say that a born-again believer does not need to repent of their sins, sins committed while they are now believers.

It is also true that the Holy Spirit will convict born-again believers of their unrepented sins - a believer will not be able to live in peace with himself because of unconfessed sins.

A born-again believer does not lose their salvation because of sin, but they do lose fellowship with the Lord because of unconfessed, unrepented sin.

AGAIN

Because a true born-again believer has the Holy Spirit, he/she will not be at peace nor able to continue long without confessing and repenting.

A born-again believer may and will fall on board... but will not fall over-board.

The Lord's trees are evergreen - and what is His, no one can snatch from His head. Nothing created nothing in existence.



rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 7:23:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
A born-again believer does not lose their salvation because of sin, but they do lose fellowship with the Lord because of unconfessed, unrepented sin.


Unless that person who continues in sin was never born again in the first place, and the refusal to do as instructed in Scripture was just an indication of their true state.

You know like those poor folks in Matthew 7 the ones that Jesus said to them; (Mat 7:21) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven".

Thanks
RC



earthless -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 7:30:35 PM)

Yes, RC.. but like we both know - they were never born-again believers. Outward appearances can be deceiving. Consider Judas. For three years, he was part of Christ's inner circle. From all outward appearances, he was a true follower of Christ. Yet, Jesus characterized Judas as "a devil" (John 6:70).



bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 8:37:30 PM)

quote:

Oh boy! oh boy do I agree with that. You should run and hide now because I agree with you.


Wow mcleod.... is this a first, surly we agree on something else.

Bob



GraceBro -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 9:41:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular.

The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed.


Hi RC, out of respect for you and my Christian brothers and sisters I will offer my feelings on your topic. I don't wish to argue, but wanted a clear presentation of what I believe so others don't make up what they believe it to be.

Repentence? True repentance is turning from unbelief in Christ to belief in Christ. i.e. accepting the Gospel. If we stop a sin, there is no guarantee we won't fall back into it. Does that mean we didn't truly repent the first time? No, it just means we need to approach God and discover what it is about that sin that we believe will give us something more than what we already have in Christ.

Confess sins? Yes, if by confession we mean agreeing with God that we did sin. But, also agreeing with God as to what He did with our sins. He "remembers them no more."

Asking God to forgive us? First of all, we didn't ask Him to forgive us the first time around. Nobody asked God to send Jesus to die on the Cross. He did that out of His love for us. Secondly, the wages of sin is death, not an apology. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Where is the shed blood in asking forgiveness? Finally, Christ died once for all. Is it in act of faith to ask Jesus to do what He has already done and to request what we already have? I don't believe it is.

It is not our confession, repentance and asking forgiveness that teaches us to say no to ungodliness. It is our resting in the fact that, in Christ, we are forgiven and then trusting in the Holy Spirit to guide us from within. And if the Holy Spirit is guiding a believer He is not going to lead us into a life of sin. That doesn't mean we will become sinless, but we should see a significant diminishing of our sins. After all, if we have been given everything for life and godliness and been blessed with every spiritual blessing what the world can only offer through sin will become less attractive. We have to see ourselves as God see us; sinless, holy, blameless and forgiven.

This labeling of the finished work of Christ as "hyper forgiveness" comes across as a straw man propped up so everybody can read their own definition into it and then tear it down. I haven't read all the posts, but I wouldn't be surprised if things like "license to sin" haven't been offered up. For those that understand the finished work, we don't see it as a license to sin, but as a reminder of how terrible sin is. Sin deserves death, not an apology. And none of us have a life worthy enough to offer to God as a sacrifice. That is why when we sin, we see it as a reminder of how thankful we should be to Christ because He paid a debt, ours, that we couldn't pay. The sin issue between man and God is over. It has to be for us to have a relationship with God. Otherwise we spend our lives focused on our flesh and not on Jesus and the Spirit.

If we can't have agreement on this subject I hope we can have clarity.

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Hebrews 10:11-14

Grace and Peace



Jhud -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 10:58:16 PM)

quote:

Jhub, would not you agree that Scripture instructs us to seek forgiveness and confess our sins, and to repent of those sins?


Sure - didn't I say that?



bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 11:21:54 PM)

Hi GraceBro... I can pretty much agree with all you have written.

Bob



map4 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 11:35:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Hi GraceBro... I can pretty much agree with all you have written.

Bob



Bob,
Just want to say I love your sig and your picture!!

Back to the discussion...



bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/8/2008 11:37:32 PM)

Thanks map4!

Bob



Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 12:03:11 AM)

quote:

Do you think it is necessary to confess sin to God or to ask God for forgiveness if a Christian commits a sin?


Absolutely.

quote:

Or do you think that a Christian who commits sin is just automatically forgiven?


Not at all.

Christ said something very significant in this regard:

"If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me ... He that is washed needeth not save [except] to wash his feet, but is clean every whit [altogether, completely]: and ye are clean, but not all" (Jn. 13:8,10).

What was Christ teaching us?

1. The one who is saved is washed -- washed in the blood of the Lamb.

2. The one who is saved is clean -- perfectly righteous with the imputed righteousness of Christ.

3. The one who is not saved is unclean (just like Judas, thus "not all").

4. The one who is saved will have his "feet" soiled daily -- contact with this world will cause us to sin, the feet symbolizing our souls.

5. In order to maintain fellowship with Christ (1 Jn. 1:5-7), we must allow Him to wash our "feet" or our souls daily. This means allowing His Word to convict us of our sins (Heb. 4:12,13), confessing them to Him (1 Jn. 1:9), repenting of our sins, and seeking the fulness of the Spirit to overcome these sins (Eph. 5:18). If we do not do so, we have no part with Him.



GraceBro -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 12:58:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi GraceBro... I can pretty much agree with all you have written.


Hi Bob, thanks... I know it can be tough proclaiming the finished work of Christ with all the misunderstanding around. Being "outnumbered" can be demoralizing at times. Just remember...

"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:18-21

...we have been reconciled to God. Our sins are remembered no more. We have Christ's righteousness.

Grace and Peace



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 12:58:41 AM)

GraceBro, your post is very helpful!



GraceBro -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 1:00:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
GraceBro, your post is very helpful!


Thanks Ephesians4_32... Glad it helped.

Grace and Peace



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 2:07:05 AM)

This is going to be mostly opinion because I don't have the luxury of long research times....

Confession and Repentence are required for the forgiveness of sins. If a church or a person either A) extend forgiveness without repentence or B) teach that God does, they are dancing on very thin ice at best. God does not forgive sins without confession and repentence, and the church should not either. Now, this is to be seperated from something along the lines of someone who offends us or commits a wrong against us. We as people are to forgive those who have sinned against us so that our heavenly father will forgive us as well. That command is given without any qualifiers of repentence. It would be nice if that happened every time.............. but unfortunately that is not the case. Forgive people who sin against you regardless... people who sin against God need to repent first.

Adam



mcleod -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 11:01:44 AM)

Bob

quote:

Wow mcleod.... is this a first, surly we agree on something else.

Bob


We probably do, but like I wrote you better beware of what you agree with me on.

For I'm known as person whom my wife says who can hold a grudge for a long time. My reply to her was, will if God can keep it until I confess the sin. So can I[:D] keep against that person who have treated me rotten. Until they confess their sin they did to me.
That doesn't mean that I have a mean anger against everyone. But to a person who has wrong me (and know that this wrong also) I will not go to great lenghts in conversation towards them. Just my nature and something I ask God to help me in everyday.
But does get to me when you tell someone that the words they used were hurting and they say back to you. Something like this;" to bad so sad you had it coming to you. Which they haven't read James lately where the writer states; "We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says. he is a perfect man, able to keep is whole body in check".



bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 11:36:46 AM)

mcloed...I might make you mad at me sometime but just remember I love you brother.

Bob



Zhi -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 12:22:52 PM)

We should also remember that Christianity is a relationship, and sin is a wrong done to God. How long would a marriage last if the spouses just assumed they were forgiven when they wronged their partner? How long would a friendship last if the friends just assumed they were forgiven when one wronged the other?



bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 12:42:58 PM)

quote:

We should also remember that Christianity is a relationship, and sin is a wrong done to God. How long would a marriage last if the spouses just assumed they were forgiven when they wronged their partner? How long would a friendship last if the friends just assumed they were forgiven when one wronged the other?


But if our spouse is loving and working hard to keep the relationship strong and they still make those small mistakes; are we not willing to forgive because we know their heart is in the right place? We do this without them having to say that they are sorry.

Bob



Zhi -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 1:04:19 PM)

I don't think God would have a problem forgiving things done "with our heart in the right place" either. We're talking about sin, not misunderstandings.



rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 1:11:24 PM)

GraceBro,

PLease help me here; If all sin including future sin is forgiven unconditionally, without confession or asking God for forgiveness then why;

Did jesus show us to ask forgivness in the prayer example of prayer;

(Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

If all sin is already forgiven (including future sin) without qualification they why did Jesus give the following requirement for forgiveness of our sins;

(Mat 6:14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

(Mat 6:15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If confessing of our sins to God is not required for forgiveness then why did John say;

(1Jo 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If there is no conditions that will bring fourth forgiveness (For Christians) then why did James write;

(Jam 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If all sin is forgiven (including future sin) automatically and unconditionally then why did Paul write;

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Thanks
RC



bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 2:03:09 PM)

quote:

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Receiving the knowledge of the truth and accepting Christ are two different things all togeather.

Bob



Odeliya -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 2:04:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

GraceBro,

PLease help me here; If all sin including future sin is forgiven unconditionally, without confession or asking God for forgiveness then why;....


because if only the sins that we confessed and asked for forgiveness are forgiven then nobody would go to Heaven.

We all die will unconfessed and unknown sins on our conscience. To get dramatic:
If I gets struck and instantly killed by a semi while driving on a highway and taking an eye off the road for a split second to check on a cute looking man in another car, am I forgiven?

You , Rcjames, and I might (most likely we will, based on what i see in your attitude and , I admit, my own) die with unconfessed sins on our account.



purush -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 3:52:45 PM)

purushotham for pray



URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 4:00:50 PM)

What a silly and peculiar people we Christians are.

We coin a term and then build a whole theology around it.

There is no Hyper or Hypo forgiveness. There is just forgiveness.

And Christ died not only for the forgiveness of our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world. Forgiveness is a done deal. There is nothing you can do to add to it or take away from it.



Zhi -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/9/2008 4:16:57 PM)

This isn't about whether or not we're forgiven, it's about whether or not we should confess our sins. Obviously, we are forgiven, but that does not negate the necessity of confession. My husband may have already forgiven me if I wrong him, but in order to repair and nurture our relationship, I still need to apologize, because there's still a rift there. Whether or not we are contrite and repentant is the difference between a rebellious child and a child who occassionally messes up.



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