RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined

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URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 4:27:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames rileykins, When we are saved all prior sins are forgiven and forgotten. How many of your sins were in the future when Christ died on the cross?

JimboFletch -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 4:27:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud It's interesting because I seem to find myself agreeing and disagreeing here with both sides. I think confessing, repenting, and seeking forgiveness are an important part of obeying Christ, but I think once we are born again, and made new creatures, salvation is complete and there is nothing I can do to add or detract from it. A sin does not have the power to cause me to be 'unborn' from God's family. However, ongoing sin without repentance would be an indicator that a rebirth had never occurred. I also think sin left without repentance breaks our fellowship with God and stunts our spiritual growth and effectiveness. It certainly causes a rift in our relationship.

JimboFletch -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 4:30:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames rileykins, When we are saved all prior sins are forgiven and forgotten. How many of your sins were in the future when Christ died on the cross? Just a thought: I have antiseptic in my medicine cabinet and I've used it on past cuts. What use is it if I cut myself today and leave the medicine cabinet closed. That past application gonna do me much good?

SD456 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 5:37:19 PM)
I haven't personally met anyone who believes this way, but I couldn't believe in it. My conscience never feels good if I sin and I feel cleansed when I take it to God. Not to mention I find the help I need to overcome or learn from such and such. An early poster brought up the idea of the Hebrews sacrificing constantly for sins and Jesus said He was the sacrifice once and for all, but I don't think sacrificing for sins is the same as asking for forgiveness.. He's our dad, we're His kids and it's good for us to realize when we blow it and good for our character to take responsibility for our wrongs in repentance.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 5:58:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven How many of your sins were in the future when Christ died on the cross? When CHrist died 2000 years ago, all my sins were in the future. To recieve the forgiveness of my sins comitted before I became a Christian, I had to believe, and repent. To recieve forgiveness for sins I commited after I became a Christian; Scripture tells me to confess and seek forgiveness for those sins and to repent. Thanks RC

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 6:23:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven How many of your sins were in the future when Christ died on the cross? When CHrist died 2000 years ago, all my sins were in the future. To recieve the forgiveness of my sins comitted before I became a Christian, I had to believe, and repent. To recieve forgiveness for sins I commited after I became a Christian; Scripture tells me to confess and seek forgiveness for those sins and to repent. Thanks RC Seems like He gave us a better deal before we got saved. Believe and repent vs. Confess, seek forgiveness, and repent. So, when we believe and repent, our sins are forgiven, but from that point on we loose that forgiveness if we sin and do not confess, seek more forgiveness and repent?

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 6:51:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Seems like He gave us a better deal before we got saved. Believe and repent vs. Confess, seek forgiveness, and repent. So, when we believe and repent, our sins are forgiven, but from that point on we loose that forgiveness if we sin and do not confess, seek more forgiveness and repent? Scripture plainly teaches that when God forgives a sin, it is forgiven, gone, does not exist. So when a Christian sins they are instruched to confess that sin, repent, etc. to recieve forgiveness for that sin. In writing to Christians the Apostle John says; (1 John 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness Thanks RC.

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 7:08:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Seems like He gave us a better deal before we got saved. Believe and repent vs. Confess, seek forgiveness, and repent. So, when we believe and repent, our sins are forgiven, but from that point on we loose that forgiveness if we sin and do not confess, seek more forgiveness and repent? Scripture plainly teaches that when God forgives a sin, it is forgiven, gone, does not exist. So when a Christian sins they are instruched to confess that sin, repent, etc. to recieve forgiveness for that sin. In writing to Christians the Apostle John says; (1 John 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness Thanks RC. Quoting 1 john 1:9 is like a suspect lawyering up, it ends the current discussion and brings in a whole new dynamic. Unfortunately that is a dynamic that would most likely not be acceptable here. Perhaps you could answer this question, since you are uncomfortable answering my last. You say that once God forgives a sin, it is forgiven. But what happens if you commit that same sin again?

Bluethread -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 7:52:07 PM)
I do believe in complete redemption. This appears to be what Paul is talking about in Romans 5. That said We must remember that that leads to Romans 6. Even if we are saved from the eturnal consequences of our sin, that does not remove the blessings and curses in this life. If we eat dog poop and we throw up, why would we want to eat it again. Of course some times we do, but eventually we learn not to or the curses associated with that behavior do us in. That, in my opinion, is why it is important to follow the "ceremonial" commands, so I don't forget that eating dog poop is not a good thing.

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 8:18:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread I do believe in complete redemption. This appears to be what Paul is talking about in Romans 5. That said We must remember that that leads to Romans 6. Even if we are saved from the eturnal consequences of our sin, that does not remove the blessings and curses in this life. If we eat dog poop and we throw up, why would we want to eat it again. Of course some times we do, but eventually we learn not to or the curses associated with that behavior do us in. That, in my opinion, is why it is important to follow the "ceremonial" commands, so I don't forget that eating dog poop is not a good thing. Generally, and for most, eventually the consequences of our sins alone begin to show us that God is right, and that to chose our own way does not end in pleasantness. [8D]In your case I would have hoped that process would have been almost instantaneous! Personally I would not have had to wait for the throw up...

Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/10/2008 9:16:28 PM)
quote: I think confessing, repenting, and seeking forgiveness are an important part of obeying Christ, but I think once we are born again, and made new creatures, salvation is complete and there is nothing I can do to add or detract from it. A sin does not have the power to cause me to be 'unborn' from God's family. That is correct. But sinning without confession and repentance can cause you to lose fellowship with the triune Godhead. The issue is on-going fellowship or communion or koinonia with a holy God, not sonship (which cannot be altered). The apostle John deals with this issue in 1 John 1 & 2 and makes it very clear that if we say that we have fellowship with God, and "walk in darkness" (sin), we lie. Also if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive them, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And that is the only way to maintain fellowship with God. Therefore the issue is not sonship but fellowship. There are many natural sons who cannot change that father-son relationship. but they are out of fellowship with their fathers because of their own sins.

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 9:31:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: I think confessing, repenting, and seeking forgiveness are an important part of obeying Christ, but I think once we are born again, and made new creatures, salvation is complete and there is nothing I can do to add or detract from it. A sin does not have the power to cause me to be 'unborn' from God's family. That is correct. But sinning without confession and repentance can cause you to lose fellowship with the triune Godhead. The issue is on-going fellowship or communion or koinonia with a holy God, not sonship (which cannot be altered). The apostle John deals with this issue in 1 John 1 & 2 and makes it very clear that if we say that we have fellowship with God, and "walk in darkness" (sin), we lie. Also if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive them, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And that is the only way to maintain fellowship with God. Therefore the issue is not sonship but fellowship. There are many natural sons who cannot change that father-son relationship. but they are out of fellowship with their fathers because of their own sins. But, I thought that Christians ARE in the light. We are IN Jesus, and Jesus IS the light. In order to walk in the dark, we would have to loose our salvation, something you just agreed cannot happen. "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 10:00:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Quoting 1 john 1:9 is like a suspect lawyering up, it ends the current discussion and brings in a whole new dynamic. Unfortunately that is a dynamic that would most likely not be acceptable here. It really matters not a hoot in a holler if it is not accepted here on the forums, It matters that it is Scripture and that I am obedient to it. (Luke 6:46)And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? quote: Perhaps you could answer this question, since you are uncomfortable answering my last. You say that once God forgives a sin, it is forgiven. But what happens if you commit that same sin again? Then you ask forgiveness, confess, and repent of that sin and also the sin of lying to God about repenting the time before. Thanks RC

GrahamCracker -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 11:19:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular. The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed. Opinions please? Thanks RC edited for spelling The idea is stupid and completely unbiblical. The idea is that the only forgiveness we need is that which affects our eternal destiny and that God never punishes here on the earth for earthly sins. While the Bible speaks of forgiveness for sins with eternal consequences and sins with heavenly consequences, I will agree that it is not always clear which is intended. I think that's where they make the mistake.

mcleod -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 11:30:15 AM)
Just like I had yesterday. A person whom we were talking about sinning and asking for forgiveness. I said first you need to realise that you have sinned. The way in which to do that is give a quick summary at the end of the day of you coming into contact with an individual and how you treated them or spoke to them. That person's comment back to me is why do that, when you just need to say God forgiven me of the sins that I commited. I said well the writer in Hebrews wrote that it is first to die then it's judgement. The responce I recieved from that was; I will not remember their sins no more. I asked him this; how can you repent of a sin in which you have no knownledge in doing and to see in which way to act as be pleasing unto the Lord. There was no comment after that. Infact changed the subject. I believe that their are so-called christian who have thought in their mind they have no wrong doings. This individual has the same thought pattern. For they brag that never had a lying tongue on them. Nor have any problems with anyone. Which I have a hard time with that type person because I don't see any humblness in them.

SD456 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 12:18:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GraceBro quote: (Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins (Heb 10:27)But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries This is the passage I can get few to look at and consider. One last thing... This passage is written to those who still think that a Christian needs to continually ask forgiveness, not the other way around as it often presented. What is the "knowledge of truth" being wilfully sinned against? The answer is within the same chapter. "Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10::17-18 The knowledge of truth is that our sins are remembered no more and there are no more sacrifices for sin. This says to put away your confession booths, 1 John 1:9ing, altar calls, rosary beads, short accounts, or whatever sacrifice you perform to deny the finished work. If you continue with your sacrifices, you are effectively saying that Christ's once and for all sacrifice was not enough to satisfy God. Therefore, if you won't put faith in that "no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Now I'm gone... Grace and Peace That's a very good understanding of that verse, thank you, Grace Bro. I believe that if we do not have the faith that there needs to be no more sacrifice for sins, then we will be plagued with fear of judgment and fire, a fear that God doesn't want His children to be plagued with. I still believe that confession of wrong doing is necessary for our character and for restoring relationships that have been harmed, but it is not necessary as a form of 'works' to attain God's forgiveness. Confession is for our good not for God's.

SD456 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 12:38:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: I think confessing, repenting, and seeking forgiveness are an important part of obeying Christ, but I think once we are born again, and made new creatures, salvation is complete and there is nothing I can do to add or detract from it. A sin does not have the power to cause me to be 'unborn' from God's family. That is correct. But sinning without confession and repentance can cause you to lose fellowship with the triune Godhead. The issue is on-going fellowship or communion or koinonia with a holy God, not sonship (which cannot be altered). The apostle John deals with this issue in 1 John 1 & 2 and makes it very clear that if we say that we have fellowship with God, and "walk in darkness" (sin), we lie. Also if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive them, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And that is the only way to maintain fellowship with God. Therefore the issue is not sonship but fellowship. There are many natural sons who cannot change that father-son relationship. but they are out of fellowship with their fathers because of their own sins. But, I thought that Christians ARE in the light. We are IN Jesus, and Jesus IS the light. In order to walk in the dark, we would have to loose our salvation, something you just agreed cannot happen. "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 Yes, I was just going to bring up those verses. We WALK IN the light, not the darkness, and according to Psalms it is a light that gets ever brighter. That verse in 1 John which Ezra brought up is speaking about unbelievers who are still walking in darkness but who are saying, "I'm a christian - I get to live eternally!" because that was a big problem in the early church with many pagans liking the idea of eternal life and forgiveness, even wanting to be a part of all the sharing of food and money that was going around, but not committing their lives to Christ. It is the same reason that 1 John states "If you say you have no sin you call the Lord a liar." He was again addressing the problem about pagan unbelievers who wanted to be part of the fellowship but did not believe they really needed a savior. These verses are not speaking to believers because believes would not say they have not sinned and they would not 'walk in darkness'.

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 1:19:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Quoting 1 john 1:9 is like a suspect lawyering up, it ends the current discussion and brings in a whole new dynamic. Unfortunately that is a dynamic that would most likely not be acceptable here. It really matters not a hoot in a holler if it is not accepted here on the forums, It matters that it is Scripture and that I am obedient to it. (Luke 6:46)And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? quote: Perhaps you could answer this question, since you are uncomfortable answering my last. You say that once God forgives a sin, it is forgiven. But what happens if you commit that same sin again? Then you ask forgiveness, confess, and repent of that sin and also the sin of lying to God about repenting the time before. Thanks RC The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Our faith is IN Jesus Christ. And in Jesus Christ we HAVE forgiveness of sins. Our forgiveness is a present reality. "To the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." Ephesians 1:6-8 Did you see that? We HAVE forgiveness. It doesn't say we had it, or that we will have it, it says we HAVE it. Man simply cannot make himself acceptable to God. But the Good News is that God has done for us, that which we cannot do for ourselves.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 1:37:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Our faith is IN Jesus Christ. And in Jesus Christ we HAVE forgiveness of sins. Our forgiveness is a present reality. So now you are saying one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ (be a Christian) to have his sins forgiven. So then everyone is forgiven for everything forever. That reeks of universalism, and I do hope that you just "Mis-spoke" and do not truly believe that. Thsnks RC

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 1:47:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Our faith is IN Jesus Christ. And in Jesus Christ we HAVE forgiveness of sins. Our forgiveness is a present reality. So now you are saying one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ (be a Christian) to have his sins forgiven. So then everyone is forgiven for everything forever. That reeks of universalism, and I do hope that you just "Mis-spoke" and do not truly believe that. Thsnks RC Where in the world did you see me say one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be forgiven? What I am saying is that it is only through belief in Jesus that we HAVE forgiveness. It is you who are saying that it is NOT only through Jesus that we Have forgiveness, but that there is something we need to do, to add to what He has provided. Our forgiveness is IN Him. When you have Him, you Have forgiveness of sins.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 2:34:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Where in the world did you see me say one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be forgiven? What I am saying is that it is only through belief in Jesus that we HAVE forgiveness. It is you who are saying that it is NOT only through Jesus that we Have forgiveness, but that there is something we need to do, to add to what He has provided. Our forgiveness is IN Him. When you have Him, you Have forgiveness of sins. I am glad you cleared that up. You posted this; quote: The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Now you change your mind and say that we must believe to be forgven; you can't have it both ways. It is dependent on us (our belief in Christ as instructed in Scripture) that brings about salvation and forgiveness. It is also dependent on us ( and our continued being obedient to Scripture) (confession, asking forgiveness, and repentance) that brings forgiveness for sins committed after salvation. Thanks RC

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 3:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Where in the world did you see me say one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ to be forgiven? What I am saying is that it is only through belief in Jesus that we HAVE forgiveness. It is you who are saying that it is NOT only through Jesus that we Have forgiveness, but that there is something we need to do, to add to what He has provided. Our forgiveness is IN Him. When you have Him, you Have forgiveness of sins. I am glad you cleared that up. You posted this; quote: The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Now you change your mind and say that we must believe to be forgven; you can't have it both ways. It is dependent on us (our belief in Christ as instructed in Scripture) that brings about salvation and forgiveness. It is also dependent on us ( and our continued being obedient to Scripture) (confession, asking forgiveness, and repentance) that brings forgiveness for sins committed after salvation. Thanks RC lol. Me thinks you are playing word games now. If what I have written is not for you , then perhaps it is for others. Peace my friend.

rileykins -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 3:46:54 PM)
Quoting 1 john 1:9 is like a suspect lawyering up, it ends the current discussion and brings in a whole new dynamic. Unfortunately that is a dynamic that would most likely not be acceptable here. Hi URForgiven You got that right! rileykins

Bluethread -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 3:48:41 PM)
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. We see here that not only the faith is ours. Therefore salvation is totally in Adonai's hands and we are moved to repentence(recognition, restitution and reformation) by Adonai. Now, how does Adonai do this? Ro 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Ha Meshiach. So, it is exposure to the Word(written, spoken, in spirit or in flesh) that leads to faith. It is not a guarantee but increases the odds.

rileykins -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 4:01:01 PM)
The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Our faith is IN Jesus Christ. And in Jesus Christ we HAVE forgiveness of sins. Our forgiveness is a present reality. "To the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." Ephesians 1:6-8 Did you see that? We HAVE forgiveness. It doesn't say we had it, or that we will have it, it says we HAVE it. Man simply cannot make himself acceptable to God. But the Good News is that God has done for us, that which we cannot do for ourselves. AMEN!! Absolutely, 100% right on!! rileykins

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