RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined

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GrahamCracker -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 4:04:40 PM)
quote: So now you are saying one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ (be a Christian) to have his sins forgiven. So then everyone is forgiven for everything forever. That reeks of universalism, and I do hope that you just "Mis-spoke" and do not truly believe that. Thsnks RC RC, In one sense that is true, but before you upchuck, let me clarify. The NT (1 John I believe?) tells us that Jesus is the propitiation not only for us but for the entire world. That is not to suggest that the whole world is saved but rather that God doesn't roast us on the spot (a lightning strike leaving a bare smudge on the floor remaining) for our sin. It would explain why God doesn't kill the whole lot of us even when some of us exceed the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ's sacrifice allows God to withhold His wrath until the very end of time. He will punish (for eternity) all of those who do not believe in Him.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 8:24:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rileykins The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Our faith is IN Jesus Christ. And in Jesus Christ we HAVE forgiveness of sins. Our forgiveness is a present reality. "To the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." Ephesians 1:6-8 Did you see that? We HAVE forgiveness. It doesn't say we had it, or that we will have it, it says we HAVE it. Man simply cannot make himself acceptable to God. But the Good News is that God has done for us, that which we cannot do for ourselves. AMEN!! Absolutely, 100% right on!! rileykins So a person does not have to have faith that Christ is? God gives us the faith, but whether we utilize that faith to obtain forgiveness for ourselves or not is up to us.(unless you happen to be a Calvinist) Thanks RC

URForgiven -> ] (4/11/2008 8:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: rileykins The point being my friend is that you have made your forgiveness dependent upon yourself, and not the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the opposite of faith in God, it is faith in yourself and your own ability to make yourself acceptable to God. Our faith is IN Jesus Christ. And in Jesus Christ we HAVE forgiveness of sins. Our forgiveness is a present reality. "To the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." Ephesians 1:6-8 Did you see that? We HAVE forgiveness. It doesn't say we had it, or that we will have it, it says we HAVE it. Man simply cannot make himself acceptable to God. But the Good News is that God has done for us, that which we cannot do for ourselves. AMEN!! Absolutely, 100% right on!! rileykins So a person does not have to have faith that Christ is? God gives us the faith, but whether we utilize that faith to obtain forgiveness for ourselves or not is up to us.(unless you happen to be a Calvinist) Thanks RC We do not utilize faith to obtain forgiveness. The day you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, you did so by faith. Our faith is in Christ and nothing and no one else. It is a package deal. By faith we accept Christ, and in Christ is forgiveness, redemption, and the big one...eternal life. We HAVE this forgiveness [and eternal life!], because we are in Him and He is in us. Ephesians 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace" Colossians 1:14 "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Hebrews 9:22 "...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Our faith is IN Jesus Christ, and in Him is forgiveness of sins.

Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 9:54:55 PM)
quote: But, I thought that Christians ARE in the light. We are IN Jesus, and Jesus IS the light. In order to walk in the dark, we would have to loose our salvation, something you just agreed cannot happen. "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 quote: Yes, I was just going to bring up those verses. We WALK IN the light, not the darkness, and according to Psalms it is a light that gets ever brighter. That verse in 1 John which Ezra brought up is speaking about unbelievers who are still walking in darkness but who are saying, "I'm a christian - I get to live eternally!" because that was a big problem in the early church with many pagans liking the idea of eternal life and forgiveness, even wanting to be a part of all the sharing of food and money that was going around, but not committing their lives to Christ. It is the same reason that 1 John states "If you say you have no sin you call the Lord a liar." He was again addressing the problem about pagan unbelievers who wanted to be part of the fellowship but did not believe they really needed a savior. These verses are not speaking to believers because believes would not say they have not sinned and they would not 'walk in darkness'. What makes you both think that any part of the first epistle of John (or any of his epsitles) are written to pagan unbelievers? There is absolutely nothing in this epistle to indicate that John is addressing unbelievers. Where in the world do people get such strange ideas? It looks like someone introduced this novelty somewhere along the way, and now we find people parroting this. As a matter of fact, there is not a single epistle in the New Testament written to unbelievers. To teach otherwise is to pervert the truth. In fact, John begins his epistle by stating that the reason he is writing these things is that those reading his epistle may have fellowship (communion, or koinonia) with him and with the Father and the Son. No pagan unbeliever can be ecouraged to have fellowship with other Christians or with the trinue Godhead, since a sinner must first be born again and be washed in the blood of Christ and clothed with His righteousness. Each and every teaching in John's epistle is to Christians. Christians who are children of God, yet capable of sinning. Therefore they are taught that in order to maintain fellowship or communion with God they must confess their sins and be forgiven on a daily (if not more frequent) basis. The spiritual lesson of Christ's foot-washing of those who were already clean re-inforces this teaching. Read John 13:1-10.

bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 10:57:57 PM)
If the message in Hebrews 10 is not written to unbelievers then the doctrine of OSAS can be thrown out the window. Because it would be apparent the we could walk away from Christ. Bob

bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/11/2008 11:03:56 PM)
And the same could be said for Galatians 1:6: Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: How can a saved person walk away to death? Bob

1love1God1way -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 12:09:59 AM)
Bob, Not so sure this is the right forum for that discussion.

bob97 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 1:24:00 AM)
quote: As a matter of fact, there is not a single epistle in the New Testament written to unbelievers. To teach otherwise is to pervert the truth. Ben...I was just responding to Ezra's comment regarding unbelievers. Bob

1love1God1way -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 1:36:03 AM)
I was just worried this was going to turn into a OSAS conversation. Carry on!

Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 1:44:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 If the message in Hebrews 10 is not written to unbelievers then the doctrine of OSAS can be thrown out the window. Because it would be apparent the we could walk away from Christ. bob: No part of the epistle to the Hebrews, including chapter 10, and no part of Galatians is written to unbelievers. For proof, you may turn to Heb. 10:19 and meditate on it. It speaks of "BRETHREN", not "aliens and enemies". Again, in Galatians 1:11 we read "But I certify you, BRETHREN". Paul always addressed believers as "brethren". Only those who are children of God are brothers and sisters in Christ. At the same time, the New Testament is very clear. Christians can and do sin, even though they are equipped and empowered not to do so. Therefore Christians must confess their sins and repent even after they are saved. The great apostle Peter was saved the day he believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. However, he denied the Lord three times in spite of his desire to never betray Him. Peter did, however, repent and was forgiven. In anticipation of this, Jesus said to him (Luke 22:32) "and when thou art converted, strengthen thy BRETHREN". The word "converted" here is the Greek epistrepho which literally means "turned again" or "turned about", and refers to Peter's repentance for his failure. Peter was a saved man at the time that he denied Christ.

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 9:03:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: But, I thought that Christians ARE in the light. We are IN Jesus, and Jesus IS the light. In order to walk in the dark, we would have to loose our salvation, something you just agreed cannot happen. "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 quote: Yes, I was just going to bring up those verses. We WALK IN the light, not the darkness, and according to Psalms it is a light that gets ever brighter. That verse in 1 John which Ezra brought up is speaking about unbelievers who are still walking in darkness but who are saying, "I'm a christian - I get to live eternally!" because that was a big problem in the early church with many pagans liking the idea of eternal life and forgiveness, even wanting to be a part of all the sharing of food and money that was going around, but not committing their lives to Christ. It is the same reason that 1 John states "If you say you have no sin you call the Lord a liar." He was again addressing the problem about pagan unbelievers who wanted to be part of the fellowship but did not believe they really needed a savior. These verses are not speaking to believers because believes would not say they have not sinned and they would not 'walk in darkness'. What makes you both think that any part of the first epistle of John (or any of his epsitles) are written to pagan unbelievers? There is absolutely nothing in this epistle to indicate that John is addressing unbelievers. Where in the world do people get such strange ideas? It looks like someone introduced this novelty somewhere along the way, and now we find people parroting this. As a matter of fact, there is not a single epistle in the New Testament written to unbelievers. To teach otherwise is to pervert the truth. In fact, John begins his epistle by stating that the reason he is writing these things is that those reading his epistle may have fellowship (communion, or koinonia) with him and with the Father and the Son. No pagan unbeliever can be ecouraged to have fellowship with other Christians or with the trinue Godhead, since a sinner must first be born again and be washed in the blood of Christ and clothed with His righteousness. Each and every teaching in John's epistle is to Christians. Christians who are children of God, yet capable of sinning. Therefore they are taught that in order to maintain fellowship or communion with God they must confess their sins and be forgiven on a daily (if not more frequent) basis. The spiritual lesson of Christ's foot-washing of those who were already clean re-inforces this teaching. Read John 13:1-10. If you are trying to say that everything written is about Believers, then I have to disagree. It may be written TO and for believers, but that in no way means it is always speaking about Believers. Not to get sidetracked here...but 1 John is specifically addressing the problem of Gnostics who were infiltrating the Brethren. They were denying that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, because they believed that all flesh is evil. These are the ones who are described as "they who walk in darkness".

Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 11:16:35 AM)
quote: Not to get sidetracked here...but 1 John is specifically addressing the problem of Gnostics who were infiltrating the Brethren. They were denying that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, because they believed that all flesh is evil. These are the ones who are described as "they who walk in darkness" This is not for getting sidetracked, but so that Christians are clear that the instructions regarding sinning and forgiveness in the epistles are addressed to them, not pagan unbelievers who are not "brethren". As to the Gnostics, that reference is found in the second epistle of John and not the first! And once again, John is writing to believers, not to the Gnostics. He is warning believers about deceivers, not the other way around. All the epistles are written to and for believers, and we dare not disregard the instructions regarding sin and dealing with sin after we are saved.

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 11:18:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: Not to get sidetracked here...but 1 John is specifically addressing the problem of Gnostics who were infiltrating the Brethren. They were denying that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, because they believed that all flesh is evil. These are the ones who are described as "they who walk in darkness" This is not for getting sidetracked, but so that Christians are clear that the instructions regarding sinning and forgiveness in the epistles are addressed to them, not pagan unbelievers who are not "brethren". As to the Gnostics, that reference is found in the second epistle of John and not the first! And once again, John is writing to believers, not to the Gnostics. He is warning believers about deceivers, not the other way around. All the epistles are written to and for believers, and we dare not disregard the instructions regarding sin and dealing with sin after we are saved. Yep, that's true. Thanks RC

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 12:05:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: Not to get sidetracked here...but 1 John is specifically addressing the problem of Gnostics who were infiltrating the Brethren. They were denying that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, because they believed that all flesh is evil. These are the ones who are described as "they who walk in darkness" This is not for getting sidetracked, but so that Christians are clear that the instructions regarding sinning and forgiveness in the epistles are addressed to them, not pagan unbelievers who are not "brethren". As to the Gnostics, that reference is found in the second epistle of John and not the first! And once again, John is writing to believers, not to the Gnostics. He is warning believers about deceivers, not the other way around. All the epistles are written to and for believers, and we dare not disregard the instructions regarding sin and dealing with sin after we are saved. He is writing to Believers about Gnostics and their teaching...He is warning Believers against the teaching of the Gnostics. What is it you disagree with?

SD456 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 1:26:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra What makes you both think that any part of the first epistle of John (or any of his epsitles) are written to pagan unbelievers? There is absolutely nothing in this epistle to indicate that John is addressing unbelievers. Where in the world do people get such strange ideas? It looks like someone introduced this novelty somewhere along the way, and now we find people parroting this. As a matter of fact, there is not a single epistle in the New Testament written to unbelievers. To teach otherwise is to pervert the truth. In fact, John begins his epistle by stating that the reason he is writing these things is that those reading his epistle may have fellowship (communion, or koinonia) with him and with the Father and the Son. No pagan unbeliever can be ecouraged to have fellowship with other Christians or with the trinue Godhead, since a sinner must first be born again and be washed in the blood of Christ and clothed with His righteousness. Each and every teaching in John's epistle is to Christians. Christians who are children of God, yet capable of sinning. Therefore they are taught that in order to maintain fellowship or communion with God they must confess their sins and be forgiven on a daily (if not more frequent) basis. The spiritual lesson of Christ's foot-washing of those who were already clean re-inforces this teaching. Read John 13:1-10. It was not written to unbelievers, it was a letter written to the church in answer to a problem that was happening. If you do any study on 1 John which goes into history and culture of the times, you will find that the problem with unbelievers wanting to be part of the 'club' so to speak was real. John was addressing this problem, and yes, knowing that these unbelievers were in the ranks, he was speaking directly to them - though the letter itself was written to the church. Again, believing that true believers are going to be walking in darkness goes against scripture, as we are children of light who walk in the light. And true believers will not say, 'they have no sin,' as we all know we do have sin and are saved from sin. I've already described the problem that was ocurring. Pagans and unbelievers were wanting to join the church because of the sharing of food, money and materials things and because of the promise of eternal life,etc., Yet they didn't believe they were 'walking in darkness' or had sin they had to repent of. They just wanted all the benefits that this new 'club' was enjoying. John was addressing this problem and then giving them the answer - they need to confess that they have sins, repent and then Jesus would forgive them. Not to mention there were other false teachings going around that was saying we have no sin also, and he was addressing these teachings. So he was addressing a two-fold problem. He was not addressing believers because he thought they were walking in darkness, because we do not. That idea is unscriptural. I'm sorry that this idea offends you, but any study of the books of 1 John will tell you the exact same thing.

Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 2:04:59 PM)
quote: What is it you disagree with? What I disagree with, and strongly object to is: 1. That you wish to suggest that instructions for dealing with sin given to believers are really not for believers, but for pagan unbelievers. 2. That because believers are supposed to walk in the light (not sin) they will always walk in the light (be sinlessly perfect). 3. That believers are not to examine themselves daily to see if there is any sin in their lives. 4. That believers are not to come to God in repentance seeking His forgiveness, as often as necessary (sometimes several times in one day). 5. That a saved sinner cannot sin, and therefore need not repent. Or worse yet, that he can and will sin, yet need not repent and confess his sins, simply by claiming "Oh, I am walking in the light!" or "Oh, I was already forgiven when I got saved!". Sin is a serious issue among genuine Christians -- those who are saved yet yield to the flesh from time to time. Attempting to dismiss this by suggesting that they are always "walking in the light" is not only utterly false but dangerous. "There is a sin unto death" and that applies to believers, not unbelievers. Unbelievers are already under condemnation and face eternal death unless they repent. Every epistle is addressed to Christians, and the instructions are directed to Christians. The only message for unbelievers is the Gospel.

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 9:03:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: What is it you disagree with? What I disagree with, and strongly object to is: 1. That you wish to suggest that instructions for dealing with sin given to believers are really not for believers, but for pagan unbelievers. 2. That because believers are supposed to walk in the light (not sin) they will always walk in the light (be sinlessly perfect). 3. That believers are not to examine themselves daily to see if there is any sin in their lives. 4. That believers are not to come to God in repentance seeking His forgiveness, as often as necessary (sometimes several times in one day). 5. That a saved sinner cannot sin, and therefore need not repent. Or worse yet, that he can and will sin, yet need not repent and confess his sins, simply by claiming "Oh, I am walking in the light!" or "Oh, I was already forgiven when I got saved!". Sin is a serious issue among genuine Christians -- those who are saved yet yield to the flesh from time to time. Attempting to dismiss this by suggesting that they are always "walking in the light" is not only utterly false but dangerous. "There is a sin unto death" and that applies to believers, not unbelievers. Unbelievers are already under condemnation and face eternal death unless they repent. Every epistle is addressed to Christians, and the instructions are directed to Christians. The only message for unbelievers is the Gospel. Well, I see there is plenty you disagree with. I fail to see the corollation between your disagreements and what is being discussed, however. 1. There are no instructions for dealing with sin given to believers in 1 John. There is a reason for that. Sin had already been dealt with, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Something Believers were very well aware of. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 2. No one has said that believers are "supposed" to walk in the light, what we are saying is that Believers can "only" walk in the light. Jesus is the light. We are in Jesus. Therefore, we walk in the light. In order to no longer walk in the light we would have to no longer be in Jesus. If you believe this is possible, then that is an entirely different problem altogether. "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12 3. There is nothing about the Believer examining himself in 1 John. 4. Believers do not come to God. We are in God and He is in us. It is only as we rely on Him and are led by Him, that we do not sin. Jesus Christ has forgiven our sins through his shed blood on the cross, why would we insult Him by asking Him to do what He already has? "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit�just as it has taught you, remain in him." 1 John 2:26,27 5. I have not seen anyone say any of theses things. I certainly would never say that I do not sin. All we are saying is that we do not confess [agree with God] in order to get forgiveness. We agree with God [confess] that our behavior, attitude, whatever it is that He is pointing out to us, is inconsistent with who we now are as Children of God. It is then that true repentance takes place. "How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!" 1 John 3:1 We are butterflies...that doesn't mean we do not sometimes act like the old worm that we were. We are all works in progress...but we remain butterflies. If you choose to believe that God does not forgive unless you have confessed all your sins, that is, of course, your right. But if truth will set you free, then the opposite is also true, that error will bind you. To be bound or to be free is the choice we have as free persons under the Grace of Jesus Christ. Peace

Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/12/2008 9:43:50 PM)
quote: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 2. No one has said that believers are "supposed" to walk in the light, what we are saying is that Believers can "only" walk in the light. By quoting this verse, you have exposed the fallacy of your belief. Note carefully that John says "But IF we walk in the light, as He is in the light..." The corresponding and converse thought is "But IF we DO NOT walk in the light, as He is in the light..." Walking in the light is simply a metaphor for living in obedience to Christ and His Word. The Christians "walk" is his manner of life. Unless you can claim that you are sinlessly perfect, you do not always live in obedience to Christ and His Word. Therefore you do not always walk in the light. And unless you are claiming to be sinlessly perfect, you must come to God in repentance, and for the forgiveness of your sins, to maintain fellowship with Him. The fact that a Christian is "in Christ" does not exempt him from repentance. Sonship is not automatically fellowship, hence all the exhortations to "walk in the Spirit" rather than "after the flesh". quote: Jesus is the light. We are in Jesus. Therefore, we walk in the light. It looks and sounds logical and even plausible, but this statement is false. And Scripture refutes it in the same epistle. Notice further that John addresses his hearers and readers as "my little children" (1 Jn. 2:1). This is also how God regards us, therefore it is addressed to believers or children of God. And then he says "these things write I unto you that ye sin not". If Christians were "always walking in the light" (sinlessly perfect) as you claim, then John would not be making such a statement about sinning. This further exposes your fallacy. It looks like you have presented and promoted a number of fallacies in your comments in this thread. I trust you will go back to Scripture and see the light (pun intended).

SD456 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/13/2008 2:11:41 AM)
I would have to disagree with you there, Ezra. I believe that when a christians falls to a temptation and sins, they are not 'walking in darkness." Walking in darkness is something that unbelievers do and is a consistent state of unregenerated sinfulness. Paul clearly states: Eph 5:8 for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord According to Paul we are no longer 'darkness', we are now light. Falling into a sin does not put us back into a state of darkness, it simply means we need to confess that sin and turn away from it and continue walking in the light, which we never left to begin with. In this verse: 1John 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin John is speaking about the difference between those who are not truly saved because they still walk in darkness and won't admit they have sin and those who are truly saved and walk in light. One group will not have fellowship and the other group will have fellowship. Again, he's writing this to the church (to christians) and addressing the problem of false teaching and false believers entering the church.

Ezra -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/13/2008 3:10:02 PM)
quote: I would have to disagree with you there, Ezra. I believe that when a christians falls to a temptation and sins, they are not 'walking in darkness." "Walking in darkness" is a metaphor for sinning. When Scripture states (1 Jn. 1:5) that "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all", it speaks not only of the brightness of His glory, but His absolute holiness and righteousness. The opposite of light is darkness, and the opposite of holiness is sin. Both these thoughts are combined here. To sin is to "walk in darkness". Please see Eph. 4:17-32, where the phrase "having the understanding darkened" is used in connection with sinning. All the "works of the flesh" exhibit this. Because Christians are capable of yielding to the flesh, they are exhorted in the epistles to "walk in the Spirit", and to "walk in the Spirit" is to "walk in the light". Thus 1 Jn. 2:9 states: "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now... But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes". This is addressed to "brethren" and "little children (vv.7 & 12). Whenever we fail to walk in the Spirit, we walk in darkness. Notice that the apostle John uses the conditional "if" while addressing genuine believers. "If" is always followed by "then". "If not" is also followed by "then". As long as the old sin nature remains in believers, the "if...then" condition remains.

SD456 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/13/2008 5:31:56 PM)
I understand what you're saying, thank you for your comments, but I disagree. In John Wesleys Explanatory Notes on the Book of 1 John, Wesley clarifies who is spoken about in the 1st chapter, and in his opinion it is speaking about those who are unsaved, as he says "any child of man before His blood has cleansed us": 1 Jo 1:8 If we say (Any child of man, before his blood has cleansed us) - We have no sin, the truth is not in us (Neither in our mouth nor in our heart). Because 1st Jhn, like other letters, is addressing very specific problems and false teachings coming into the church. Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the bible also states that 1 Jhn is speaking about those who are not truly saved, but who attempt to say they are. He goes on to say that there is no truth in either their profession of faith or in their practice. This is definately not speaking about believers, but to those who have never been regenerated, those who are infiltrating the church on a phony pretense.: Now there may be those who may pretend to great attainments and enjoyments in religion; they may profess to have communion with God; and yet their lives may be irreligious, immoral, and impure. To such the apostle would not fear to say: They lie, and do not the truth. They belie God; for he holds no heavenly fellowship or intercourse with unholy souls. What communion hath light with darkness? They belie themselves, or lie concerning themselves; for they have no such communications from God nor accesses to him. There is no truth in their profession nor in their practice, or their practice gives their profession and pretences the lie, and demonstrates the folly and falsehood of them. I will have to stick with my first belief, and that is 1 John 1 is addressing a problem in the church and not saying that born-again believers walk in darkness. We do not.

SD456 -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/13/2008 5:47:14 PM)
quote: To sin is to "walk in darkness". Please see Eph. 4:17-32, where the phrase "having the understanding darkened" is used in connection with sinning. Eph 4 is speaking about unbelievers whose understanding is darkened because they are unregenerated and unsanctified. Yes, unbelievers do have a darkened understanding - solely because they do not know Christ and thus are not children of light. It goes on to say that unbelievers are separated from the life of God. 4:18 They (unbelievers) are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God We are not like that. We walk in light because we are children of light. And unbelievers' understanding is darkened because satan has blinded their minds: 2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers But Jesus says: John 8: 12 I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. So though we trip-up, fall into a temporary sin, we haven't left the path of light, unless we willfully turn away from Christ and reject Him. Because he has Col 1:13 ....rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves We are IN the kingdom of light, the Kingdom of His son, no matter if we temporarily fall into sin. That's our home now. We don't walk in darkness because that infers that our understandings are darkened as unbelievers. If we're truly saved, that isn't possible.

URForgiven -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/13/2008 5:57:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 2. No one has said that believers are "supposed" to walk in the light, what we are saying is that Believers can "only" walk in the light. By quoting this verse, you have exposed the fallacy of your belief. Note carefully that John says "But IF we walk in the light, as He is in the light..." The corresponding and converse thought is "But IF we DO NOT walk in the light, as He is in the light..." Walking in the light is simply a metaphor for living in obedience to Christ and His Word. The Christians "walk" is his manner of life. Unless you can claim that you are sinlessly perfect, you do not always live in obedience to Christ and His Word. Therefore you do not always walk in the light. And unless you are claiming to be sinlessly perfect, you must come to God in repentance, and for the forgiveness of your sins, to maintain fellowship with Him. The fact that a Christian is "in Christ" does not exempt him from repentance. Sonship is not automatically fellowship, hence all the exhortations to "walk in the Spirit" rather than "after the flesh". quote: Jesus is the light. We are in Jesus. Therefore, we walk in the light. It looks and sounds logical and even plausible, but this statement is false. And Scripture refutes it in the same epistle. Notice further that John addresses his hearers and readers as "my little children" (1 Jn. 2:1). This is also how God regards us, therefore it is addressed to believers or children of God. And then he says "these things write I unto you that ye sin not". If Christians were "always walking in the light" (sinlessly perfect) as you claim, then John would not be making such a statement about sinning. This further exposes your fallacy. It looks like you have presented and promoted a number of fallacies in your comments in this thread. I trust you will go back to Scripture and see the light (pun intended). sigh It is your belief that walking in the light means sinless perfection, not mine, so that would make it your fallacy. The passage you quote, if you read it in its entirety, says exactly what we have been saying all along. It is all Jesus...and none of us. "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense�Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 1, 2 It doesn't say anything about walking in the darkness because we mess up, it doesn't say anything about being out of fellowship, and it certainly doesn't say confess that sin or else. What does it say? "If anybody does sin we HAVE One who defends us, Jesus Christ. HE is the Righteous One and He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins." Could it be any clearer? I believe you have everything you need to come to an understanding of the truth, if that is your desire. If that is your desire. Peace

rcjames -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/13/2008 8:21:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 2. No one has said that believers are "supposed" to walk in the light, what we are saying is that Believers can "only" walk in the light. By quoting this verse, you have exposed the fallacy of your belief. Note carefully that John says "But IF we walk in the light, as He is in the light..." The corresponding and converse thought is "But IF we DO NOT walk in the light, as He is in the light..." Walking in the light is simply a metaphor for living in obedience to Christ and His Word. The Christians "walk" is his manner of life. Unless you can claim that you are sinlessly perfect, you do not always live in obedience to Christ and His Word. Therefore you do not always walk in the light. And unless you are claiming to be sinlessly perfect, you must come to God in repentance, and for the forgiveness of your sins, to maintain fellowship with Him. The fact that a Christian is "in Christ" does not exempt him from repentance. Sonship is not automatically fellowship, hence all the exhortations to "walk in the Spirit" rather than "after the flesh". quote: Jesus is the light. We are in Jesus. Therefore, we walk in the light. It looks and sounds logical and even plausible, but this statement is false. And Scripture refutes it in the same epistle. Notice further that John addresses his hearers and readers as "my little children" (1 Jn. 2:1). This is also how God regards us, therefore it is addressed to believers or children of God. And then he says "these things write I unto you that ye sin not". If Christians were "always walking in the light" (sinlessly perfect) as you claim, then John would not be making such a statement about sinning. This further exposes your fallacy. It looks like you have presented and promoted a number of fallacies in your comments in this thread. I trust you will go back to Scripture and see the light (pun intended). sigh It is your belief that walking in the light means sinless perfection, not mine, so that would make it your fallacy. The passage you quote, if you read it in its entirety, says exactly what we have been saying all along. It is all Jesus...and none of us. "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense�Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 1, 2 It doesn't say anything about walking in the darkness because we mess up, it doesn't say anything about being out of fellowship, and it certainly doesn't say confess that sin or else. What does it say? "If anybody does sin we HAVE One who defends us, Jesus Christ. HE is the Righteous One and He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins." Could it be any clearer? I believe you have everything you need to come to an understanding of the truth, if that is your desire. If that is your desire. Peace So you really think you can recieve forgiveness and become a Christian without excersing your faith and repenting. Amazing. Thanks RC

Doghouse -> RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined (4/14/2008 7:02:39 AM)
I have to chuckle to myself when I read some of the posts here. It sounds to me that some here think that Christianity can be practiced with mere profession, but with no real conversion. To which I say - what's the point? Its like saying that we are going to pass a law that the bottom light of a traffic light in the US is now the color "glouch". And any color that resembles the color of the bottom light of a traffic light is now a shade of "glouch". What have we really changed? Have we converted the traffic light to something else by re-labeling the color to "glouch"? I am thinking that the instruction of Christianity is about being saved and healed. From what? From sin, and the wages of living as a secular human, and not a Spirit-filled believer. The difference between these is the equivalent of changing the lens in the bottom light of the traffic light to really make it pink or blue, and not merely renaming the existing color "glouch". In the equivalent conversion to pink or blue, we are converted - from a wretched reprobate to a saved Christian. This by the process of participating in faith and living it, not just speaking it or dabbling in it. We cannot take sin and re-label it to something else post-salvic event (whatever you believe this to be - Baptism, Altar Call, whatever...) and have it be acceptable. Good thread RC - I am kind of like you; surprised at the quality of Christian instruction going on out there in some denominations, congregations, or individuals (wherever such nonsense as "hyper-forgiveness" is coming from...)

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