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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/14/2008 12:41:15 PM
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rileykins
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quote:
To sin is to "walk in darkness". Please see Eph. 4:17-32, where the phrase "having the understanding darkened" is used in connection with sinning. All the "works of the flesh" exhibit this. Because Christians are capable of yielding to the flesh, they are exhorted in the epistles to "walk in the Spirit", and to "walk in the Spirit" is to "walk in the light".
Eph.4:17-32
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
This passage is not describing believers. WE are not alienated from the life of God, the usaved are. The hearts of the unsaved are blinded.
When a believer sins they do so right smack in the light! God calls us children of light. We WERE of the darkness, walking therein, but no longer. And we don't go from being in the light one minute to being in darkness the next anymore than we can go from being in Christ one minute to being cut off from His body the next!
For ye WERE sometimes darkness BUT NOW are ye light in the Lord: ephs.5:8
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Thess.5:5
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col.1
While we may be prone on occassion to yielding to the flesh, never ever do we (believers) cease to be all that God says we are in Christ.
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/14/2008 2:06:47 PM
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rileykins
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"While we may be prone on occassion to yielding to the flesh, never ever do we (believers) cease to be all that God says we are in Christ."
And that included the believers at Corinth and what a mess they were! Yet how does the Lord through Paul address them?
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
For all these saint's problems, sins and failures, does Paul ever once tell them that they need to confess their sins and repent if God is to forgive them? Does Paul tell them that they have fallen out of fellowship with God? As far as I know he does not. If keeping up with keeping short accounts ala 1John 1:9 is such an important doctrine then surely it needed to be applied to this bunch! But what does Paul do instead. Does he call them to an altar call in which they are to beg God to forgive them while they redidicate, reconscreate themselves and promise God that they will try harder to behave themselves? Does Paul tell them that they need to attend Promise Keepers? No. He first reminds them of who they are in Christ and beseeches them on that basis to act like the saints that they already are! That's the real answer to sin in the life of a saint. Know who you are in Christ believe it, let who God says you now are in His Son be your reality and act upon that. Is it bitterness or anger that has you in it's grip. God says to put it away. Why because if you don't you'll "fall out of fellowship" with the Lord. No. But because God for Christ's sake has forgiven you. Is it the sin of coverteousness that has you ensalved? Learn as Paul did how to be content whether in much or little. Let godliness with contentment be your greatest treasure. Why because if you don't God will turn his back on you? No. Because you've been made complete in Christ that's why. Because you've been given all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, and when it's Christ who is your all in all and when you have everything you need in Him that will ever be of any real worth and lasting value whatsoever, why do you need to covet the things of this world. Things which are only temporary and which have no real lasting value and can never ever satisfy the hungry heart, or truly quench a thirsty soul.
o.k. that's all I have time for now.
rileykins
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/15/2008 6:44:54 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
"While we may be prone on occassion to yielding to the flesh, never ever do we (believers) cease to be all that God says we are in Christ."
And that included the believers at Corinth and what a mess they were! Yet how does the Lord through Paul address them?
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
For all these saint's problems, sins and failures, does Paul ever once tell them that they need to confess their sins and repent if God is to forgive them? Does Paul tell them that they have fallen out of fellowship with God? As far as I know he does not. If keeping up with keeping short accounts ala 1John 1:9 is such an important doctrine then surely it needed to be applied to this bunch! But what does Paul do instead. Does he call them to an altar call in which they are to beg God to forgive them while they redidicate, reconscreate themselves and promise God that they will try harder to behave themselves? Does Paul tell them that they need to attend Promise Keepers? No. He first reminds them of who they are in Christ and beseeches them on that basis to act like the saints that they already are! That's the real answer to sin in the life of a saint. Know who you are in Christ believe it, let who God says you now are in His Son be your reality and act upon that. Is it bitterness or anger that has you in it's grip. God says to put it away. Why because if you don't you'll "fall out of fellowship" with the Lord. No. But because God for Christ's sake has forgiven you. Is it the sin of coverteousness that has you ensalved? Learn as Paul did how to be content whether in much or little. Let godliness with contentment be your greatest treasure. Why because if you don't God will turn his back on you? No. Because you've been made complete in Christ that's why. Because you've been given all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, and when it's Christ who is your all in all and when you have everything you need in Him that will ever be of any real worth and lasting value whatsoever, why do you need to covet the things of this world. Things which are only temporary and which have no real lasting value and can never ever satisfy the hungry heart, or truly quench a thirsty soul.
o.k. that's all I have time for now.
rileykins
Good stuff rileykins!
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/18/2008 3:05:37 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed. I don't have time to read 5 pages of comments so if I reiterate what someone else said, sorry.
This seems to be connected with the WOF movement. They are so hyper-sensitive to what is being said that they cannot even state plain facts if they are can somehow be construed as negative. Confessing sin becomes a negative confession, thus tieing God's hands from moving in their life and giving free reign to the devil. IOW, their speach is more powerful than God himself.
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 6:16:12 PM
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deliveredarling
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I suppose this is the real battle of deception here. We don't have to ask for forgiveness? Sounds just like a genie in a bottle. We can do whatever we want and claim to be Christians. i suppose Jesus didn't mean it when He said , "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish,". Luke 13:5. And the following parable allows a saved person to sin without repentance and not be cut down?
I'm not sure that those advocating this "doctrine" realize how arrogant and prideful the sound. I mean no offense in saying this. Do you really believe that Christ suffered the death of the cross so that we could sin, (spit in his face) and not even offer up an apology? It sure seems that this lacks any reverence for the Almighty. the scriptures that have been provide certainly ascribe to the hope that is offered from Grace, but does not support that we don't have to ask for forgiveness. repent or die is pretty clear.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 6:25:33 PM
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Bluethread
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I would support those who say we don't "have to" do anything in particular to be saved. But, if we are part of the family of Adonai, we will want to do certain things, believing that Abba(Papa) knows what is best for us.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 6:53:29 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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ORIGINAL: LCannon
quote:
"Talk is cheap, show me your faith without obedience and I will show you my faith by my obedience." James 2:17,18
Cannon,
What version are you quoting from? In every Bible I've read it is worded something to this effect, "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith."
Yours sounds more like a paraphrase. And although I think their is a correlation between obedience and works, they do not mean the same thing.
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 7:12:34 PM
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Heavendweller
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Once, at the end of a women's Bible study, we started to offer prayer requests. I spoke about asking forgiveness for something I had done wrong. The pastor's wife responded, "You don't need to ask forgiveness. Christ has already forgiven you when He died upon the cross."
As the discussion continued, I came to realize that she believed that "It is finished" means we need not repent of our sins or ask forgiveness once we have been "saved."
I read something recently which jumped out at me and what I think applies to this conversation. "To say that a man cannot sin because he is justified is very much the same thing as to state that no action, whether sinful in itself or not, can be imparted to the justified Christian as sin."
If one believes that the faith they had upon regeneration is enough to carry them through life, and nothing, absolutely no sin however deplorable, can effect their salvation, they could easily aquire an attitude of "hyper forgiveness." Their reasoning is that God will not hold any sin against me since I'm already saved, and He cannot go back on His promise, therefore...If I never repent after being "saved" I will still go to Heaven.
Such is the fruit of...hate to say but at risk of being unpopular OSAS. Why should a Christian ask forgiveness if they think that upon salvation (however a Christian views that, and there are diverse opinions on this forum), they have an automatic ticket to Heaven? Why fight the good fight of the faith? Why put to death the deeds of the flesh? Why take up one's cross daily?
MAN, THAT'S JUST TOOOOO HARD! Why bother if I'm already guaranteed full entrance past those pearly gates? I can have my cake and eat it too. All without any sacrifice.
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 7:16:45 PM
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Bluethread
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Heavendweller:
Those of us who dwell here on earth need to repent of certain activities, since there are curses that follow from those activitiies.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 7:56:07 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Once, at the end of a women's Bible study, we started to offer prayer requests. I spoke about asking forgiveness for something I had done wrong. The pastor's wife responded, "You don't need to ask forgiveness. Christ has already forgiven you when He died upon the cross."
As the discussion continued, I came to realize that she believed that "It is finished" means we need not repent of our sins or ask forgiveness once we have been "saved."
I read something recently which jumped out at me and what I think applies to this conversation. "To say that a man cannot sin because he is justified is very much the same thing as to state that no action, whether sinful in itself or not, can be imparted to the justified Christian as sin."
If one believes that the faith they had upon regeneration is enough to carry them through life, and nothing, absolutely no sin however deplorable, can effect their salvation, they could easily aquire an attitude of "hyper forgiveness." Their reasoning is that God will not hold any sin against me since I'm already saved, and He cannot go back on His promise, therefore...If I never repent after being "saved" I will still go to Heaven.
Such is the fruit of...hate to say but at risk of being unpopular OSAS. Why should a Christian ask forgiveness if they think that upon salvation (however a Christian views that, and there are diverse opinions on this forum), they have an automatic ticket to Heaven? Why fight the good fight of the faith? Why put to death the deeds of the flesh? Why take up one's cross daily?
MAN, THAT'S JUST TOOOOO HARD! Why bother if I'm already guaranteed full entrance past those pearly gates? I can have my cake and eat it too. All without any sacrifice.
Heavendweller
The question is, "why would a Christian ask for what they already have?"
Do you not believe that Christs sacrifice was sufficient? Were not all of your sins in the future when Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross? And without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
It appears that you believe that getting your sins forgiven is what gets you into Heaven. That would explain a lot of what you say.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 8:51:35 PM
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deliveredarling
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Faith gets us into heaven. If we don't have the faith, we don't have the works that show the result of our faith. We are called to be holy as He is holy. Our works should be a result of that. To say that i can go and get drunk, use drugs, cuss like a sailor, sleep with hundreds of people and say i walk in the light because I'm forgiven is delusional. Being saved does not offer me or any other saved person the right to do what we please. We were bought at a price. Scripture simply does not back up what you are saying. Read the letter to the seven churches in Revelations and see if you still feel the same.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 9:08:33 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Faith gets us into heaven. If we don't have the faith, we don't have the works that show the result of our faith. We are called to be holy as He is holy. Our works should be a result of that. To say that i can go and get drunk, use drugs, cuss like a sailor, sleep with hundreds of people and say i walk in the light because I'm forgiven is delusional. Being saved does not offer me or any other saved person the right to do what we please. We were bought at a price. Scripture simply does not back up what you are saying. Read the letter to the seven churches in Revelations and see if you still feel the same.
If you are talking to me, Scripture absolutely backs up what I am saying. It is what you are saying that is not supported by Scripture.
The shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins is throughout the Old and NT. All a precurser to Jesus Christ, the ultimate and final sacrifice for sins.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/22/2008 11:56:26 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Heavendweller:
Those of us who dwell here on earth need to repent of certain activities, since there are curses that follow from those activitiies.
Amen!!
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:03:04 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Faith gets us into heaven. If we don't have the faith, we don't have the works that show the result of our faith. We are called to be holy as He is holy. Our works should be a result of that. To say that i can go and get drunk, use drugs, cuss like a sailor, sleep with hundreds of people and say i walk in the light because I'm forgiven is delusional. Being saved does not offer me or any other saved person the right to do what we please. We were bought at a price. Scripture simply does not back up what you are saying. Read the letter to the seven churches in Revelations and see if you still feel the same.
Excellent post!! "You were bought with a price, therefore glorify God in your bodies." "I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:14:59 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The question is, "why would a Christian ask for what they already have?"
Do you not believe that Christs sacrifice was sufficient? Were not all of your sins in the future when Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross? And without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
It appears that you believe that getting your sins forgiven is what gets you into Heaven. That would explain a lot of what you say.
URForgiven,
So I ask, have you ever asked Christ to forgive you of anything since you have been a Christian? Why did Christ bother to instruct us to ask for forgiveness in Matthew 6:14 & 15, if our Lord thought it was pointless?
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 6:27:29 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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In looking up repentance, I have not found anywhere that says, upon salvation, there is no more need of forgiveness. I have found the opposite.
James 4: 8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands you sinners: and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Rev. 3:19
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Matt. 3:2
Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Matt 3:7-8
But when He saw many of the pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, " You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with your repentance."
Luke 24:47
And that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Are the advocates saying this is only to the sinners and not to the saints? Am I understanding that correctly?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 8:49:09 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The question is, "why would a Christian ask for what they already have?"
Do you not believe that Christs sacrifice was sufficient? Were not all of your sins in the future when Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross? And without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
It appears that you believe that getting your sins forgiven is what gets you into Heaven. That would explain a lot of what you say.
URForgiven,
So I ask, have you ever asked Christ to forgive you of anything since you have been a Christian? Why did Christ bother to instruct us to ask for forgiveness in Matthew 6:14 & 15, if our Lord thought it was pointless?
Heavendweller
When you have answered my questions, then I will answer yours. Peace.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 8:51:39 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
In looking up repentance, I have not found anywhere that says, upon salvation, there is no more need of forgiveness. I have found the opposite.
James 4: 8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands you sinners: and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Rev. 3:19
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Matt. 3:2
Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Matt 3:7-8
But when He saw many of the pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, " You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with your repentance."
Luke 24:47
And that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Are the advocates saying this is only to the sinners and not to the saints? Am I understanding that correctly?
Christian repentance is turning away from your independence and self-sufficiency, and turning to dependence upon Christ and His sufficiency.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 10:39:29 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
GraceBro,
PLease help me here; If all sin including future sin is forgiven unconditionally, without confession or asking God for forgiveness then why;
Did jesus show us to ask forgivness in the prayer example of prayer;
(Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
If all sin is already forgiven (including future sin) without qualification they why did Jesus give the following requirement for forgiveness of our sins;
(Mat 6:14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
(Mat 6:15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
If confessing of our sins to God is not required for forgiveness then why did John say;
(1Jo 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If there is no conditions that will bring fourth forgiveness (For Christians) then why did James write;
(Jam 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
If all sin is forgiven (including future sin) automatically and unconditionally then why did Paul write;
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Excellent verses R.C., and very appropriate for this discussion.
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 10:41:11 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5689
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The question is, "why would a Christian ask for what they already have?"
Do you not believe that Christs sacrifice was sufficient? Were not all of your sins in the future when Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross? And without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
It appears that you believe that getting your sins forgiven is what gets you into Heaven. That would explain a lot of what you say.
I have been reading over your post and I have a question.
Since you believe that a Christian who commits a sin is automatically forgiven and all is whell withe that person, then you are suggestiong that the person can go to a mall pull out a gun, shoot someone in the head, and walla he is forgiven. He can then shoot another in the head, and walla he is forgiven, he can shoot another in the head and walla he is forgiven. On the way home he rapes a child, automatically forgiven, robs a bank, automatically forgiven, whatever, anutomatically, and walla he is forgiven.
He is then involved in an accident, dies and goes home to heaven, Godd, and the angels with a clean slate and God says, Well done my true and faithful servant?
What a load of whatchamacallit.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 10:48:47 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1138
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The question is, "why would a Christian ask for what they already have?"
Do you not believe that Christs sacrifice was sufficient? Were not all of your sins in the future when Jesus Christ shed His blood on the cross? And without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
It appears that you believe that getting your sins forgiven is what gets you into Heaven. That would explain a lot of what you say.
I have been reading over your post and I have a question.
Since you believe that a Christian who commits a sin is automatically forgiven and all is whell withe that person, then you are suggestiong that the person can go to a mall pull out a gun, shoot someone in the head, and walla he is forgiven. He can then shoot another in the head, and walla he is forgiven, he can shoot another in the head and walla he is forgiven. On the way home he rapes a child, automatically forgiven, robs a bank, automatically forgiven, whatever, anutomatically, and walla he is forgiven.
He is then involved in an accident, dies and goes home to heaven, Godd, and the angels with a clean slate and God says, Well done my true and faithful servant?
What a load of whatchamacallit.
Thanks
RC
Your veiled attempts to re-write my words to fit your own dogma, are just silly.
You simply have no concept of what it means to have the life of Christ living in and through you.
Your sins are forgiven, Repentance is dependency upon Jesus Christ. If, in your mind, Jesus Christ leads those who depend on Him to sin, then I do not know your Jesus Christ, nor do I wish to.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 11:20:05 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5689
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Your sins are forgiven, Repentance is dependency upon Jesus Christ. If, in your mind, Jesus Christ leads those who depend on Him to sin, then I do not know your Jesus Christ, nor do I wish to.
I am a little confused here, are you saying that even if a person wants to repent that Christ may not want him to stop sinning?
I am saying that if we, as a Christian, sin: then we should be convicted of that sin, confess that sin and repent of that sin; what in the world are you trying to say?
Thanks
RC
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 11:42:37 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2001
Joined: 8/30/2007
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"repentance is dependency upon Jesus Christ"
Show me where in the Bible is says this.
Dependency on Christ is the result of pursuing a relationship with Him. Repentance has nothing to do with dependency. He doesn't cause us to sin- He forgives us for sinning, when we ask. If we are not His children , we wouldn't need to ask for forgiveness
Even tho you concede that we won't want to sin after we become His children, we still will sin. So how do you suppose that the sin goes away? We've done something wrong and He just magically makes it go away? What if you didn't learn from that sin and keep repeating it because you were never sorry in thew first place. Why do you suppose He tells the churches in Revelations, which are full of believers, to repent? Because they were walking right and spitting white? This is just so unfathomable to me that people believe this.
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Luke 8:16
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:11:54 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I haven't personally met anyone who believes this way, but I couldn't believe in it. My conscience never feels good if I sin and I feel cleansed when I take it to God. Not to mention I find the help I need to overcome or learn from such and such.
SD,
I hear ya. Isn't the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives to convict us of our sin? If there is no conviction for my sin, or if I ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit when I've sinned, then eventually I am risking having a hardened heart toward my Lord.
This whole premise of not asking forgiveness for sins wouldn't work very well in my household. There have been many times over the course of my marriage when I have hurt my husband, sometimes by an unkind word, sometimes by selfishness, sometimes by ignoring his needs and not considering his opinion. I need not go into specifics, I think you get my drift. If over the course of the years, I never told him I was sorry, never asked for his forgiveness, our marriage would have fallen apart.
There are even more serious examples of sin which rupture and separate a marriage. One is adultery. Read the heartfelt sadness and hurt that many spouses are enduring due to this sin on our forum. If someone would instruct these spouses who have sinned so grievously against their husband or wife not to say they're sorry and ask forgiveness for their unfaithfulness, their advice would be a recipe for disaster! And if someone would tell the offended spouse that it is unneccessary and wrong for them to want to hear and see a demonstration of contrition from the one who committed adultery, their advice would be a recipe for disaster. I can just imagine a Christian marriage counselor telling the hurt spouse, "What? Do you think your wife should say she is sorry for cheating on you this past year? Don't you realize that Christ already forgave her for this sin? If He isn't expecting to hear her ask for forgiveness of this sin, why should you? Do you think yourself better than Jesus Christ?" Yeah, that would go over just fine.....NOT!
I hope my example through common sense prooves the ridiculousness of Hyper Forgiveness thinking.
Heavendweller
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RE: HYPER-FORGIVENESS; Real or imagined - 4/23/2008 12:16:39 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2103
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
A growing doctrine that I will tag as Hyper-Forgiveness seems to be getting more and more pppular.
The short short of it is that if a person is a Christian then they are automatically forgiven for any sins they may commit; no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed.
Opinions please?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
If you are a Christian, you ARE forgiven for any and all sins you have or may commit.
"Automatically" is a poor term. You are instantly forgiven, but it is by the Father's conscious decree, by his grace, through your faith, on the basis of Christ's work on your behalf. ... hardly "automatic."
Now... as for these:
quote:
no repentance needed, no confession nedded, no asking God for forgiveness needed
It depends on your definition of "needed."
Are these works INHERENT to a saving faith? Yes.
Do these works ALWAYS flow out of a saving faith? Yes.
Will ALL people who are saved do these things? Yes.
Are these works EVIDENCE to fellow humans of the faith you claim? Yes.
Are these "needed to be tacked on in addition to your faith" before you will be saved / before God actually forgives you / before God will accept you / before God will love you / etc? No.
Does God "need to see these things to know if your faith is real"? No.
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Put another way...
A Christian does not "need to" do these things to be saved.
However, a person who does not do these things is not a Christian.
< Message edited by TheoJunkie -- 4/23/2008 12:24:27 PM >
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-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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