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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 8:45:40 AM
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restored08
Posts: 77
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
John did baptize with water and preach the remission of sin....
If John's baptism resulted in the remission of sin, then Jesus could have stayed in heaven and not endure the shame and the cross.
Didn't John preach repentance from sin, not remission?
No one said that John's baptism resulted in the remission of sin.
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness and preach repentance for the remission of sin.
And reading a dictionary every now and then will show you that remit and repent means basically the same thing.
he taught about repentance so that people would turn away from their sins.
And, yes, Jesus did have to endure what he did for us. When He did what He did, we were still not automatically saved, we had to confess and claim salvation.
And where did you read that Jesus was first in heaven (I mean before His death, resurrection and accension)?
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 8:53:15 AM
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restored08
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/7/2008
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[/quote]
I do not think that salvation and water baptism go hand and hand.
[/quote]
Mark 16:16
[He that believeth and if baptized[code][G907/code] shall be saved, etc.../color]
And if you have a bible dictionary and look up the reference code in my bible it gives for the definition in this particular scripture washed. And usually to wash something would denote water was involved, right?
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 8:57:36 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3708
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quote:
And reading a dictionary every now and then will show you that remit and repent means basically the same thing.
restored08, in theological terms, repentance and remission are not even close to being identical.
Repentance is a change of mind and course.
Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense.
You can have the first without the second and still be lost, even if you get dunked 100 times a day.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 9:04:46 AM
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restored08
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
restored08, in theological terms, repentance and remission are not identical.
Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense.
I'm not a theologist or anything but my bible dictionary gives basically the same meaning for both words, to stop, cancel, change or desist.
As for pardon and forgive they're the same
pardon--To excuse or [u]forgive for a fault.
forgive- to[u] pardon, excuse or claim requital for a fault.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 9:16:51 AM
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restored08
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/7/2008
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quote:
[the agent there is a man/quote]
I'm not claiming to be right with all comments that I make. I assumed that these forums were to share and help enlightened people with scriptural discussions. Now I started this post because I wanted more understanding about it. And yes I've been in Christian Worship for years. But that wouldn't mean that I or anyone has full understanding of the entire bible nor a particular subject. We are all still learning no matter how long you've been in Christian Worship( I say this because I assume that's what meant when you use CW if I'm wrong, correct me)
But by saying the agent is a man are you saying because God is not doing the baptizing that it's irrelevant.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 9:19:28 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3708
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
restored08, in theological terms, repentance and remission are not identical.
Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense.
I'm not a theologist or anything but my bible dictionary gives basically the same meaning for both words, to stop, cancel, change or desist.
As for pardon and forgive they're the same
pardon--To excuse or [u]forgive for a fault.
forgive- to[u] pardon, excuse or claim requital for a fault.
I don't know how else to say this, repentance and remission are two different things. One YOU do, the other JESUS had to do because you AREN'T ABLE to satisfy God's demands.
Repentance is a change of YOUR mind and YOUR course.
Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense BY JESUS.
You can have the REPENTANCE without REMISSION and still be LOST, even if you get dunked 100 times a day.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 9:27:04 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 383
Joined: 3/22/2008
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It is entirely possible to be water baptized and not be saved. But, it is entirely impossible to be Spiritually baptized and not be saved.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 9:48:33 AM
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restored08
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is entirely possible to be water baptized and not be saved. But, it is entirely impossible to be Spiritually baptized and not be saved.
I do like that. That is so true.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 10:39:59 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
And where did you read that Jesus was first in heaven (I mean before His death, resurrection and accension)?
seriously 
Book of John starting with verse 1.
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 10:58:55 AM
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restored08
Posts: 77
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
And where did you read that Jesus was first in heaven (I mean before His death, resurrection and accension)?
seriously
Book of John starting with verse 1.
Thank you for that, doinkdom.
But wouldn't it be true to say that Jesus himself didn't come directly from heaven because He was born flesh and lived in a fleshly body, as you and I do?
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 11:19:30 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3279
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
And where did you read that Jesus was first in heaven (I mean before His death, resurrection and accension)?
seriously
Book of John starting with verse 1.
Thank you for that, doinkdom.
But wouldn't it be true to say that Jesus himself didn't come directly from heaven because He was born flesh and lived in a fleshly body, as you and I do?
You are serious.
Directly from heaven - you mean just *poof* and He appeared on earth one day?
Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, born of the virgin Mary
The Nicene Creed does a much better job of expressing the diety of Christ.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 11:22:05 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3279
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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btw, we gotta tie this back into water baptism or we're gonna get in trouble in here with baptism being the real topic and all. 
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 11:48:20 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3279
Joined: 4/12/2005
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thank you m'am
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 12:27:44 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 969
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is entirely possible to be water baptized and not be saved. But, it is entirely impossible to be Spiritually baptized and not be saved.
I like this too. If it's possble to be water baptized and not be saved, then it must be possible to be water baptized and be saved. What did the man do different who was baptized and saved? Obviously nothing since there is nothing that man can do that results in salvation. Therefore, baptism is not a work, since what man does in baptism is not what brings about salvation. It is what God does in baptism that results in salvation.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 12:34:46 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3708
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is entirely possible to be water baptized and not be saved. But, it is entirely impossible to be Spiritually baptized and not be saved.
I like this too. If it's possble to be water baptized and not be saved, then it must be possible to be water baptized and be saved. What did the man do different who was baptized and saved? Obviously nothing since there is nothing that man can do that results in salvation....
Therefore, one either enters the water saved before baptism or only enters the water lost before getting dunked.
People who were baptized by John did not get saved by the water - and that includes Jesus who did not need salvation. He did it as a sign - just as we who are His redeemed do it as a sign and a testimony in honor of Him.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 12:51:19 PM
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restored08
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
And where did you read that Jesus was first in heaven (I mean before His death, resurrection and accension)?
seriously
Book of John starting with verse 1.
Thank you for that, doinkdom.
But wouldn't it be true to say that Jesus himself didn't come directly from heaven because He was born flesh and lived in a fleshly body, as you and I do?
You are serious.
Directly from heaven - you mean just *poof* and He appeared on earth one day?
Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, born of the virgin Mary
The Nicene Creed does a much better job of expressing the diety of Christ.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
yes i was serious. i've been saved for 15 years but i've only been studying the bible maybe 6 of those 15 years. so i'm still learning like a lot other people are, including you. but it makes me not want to continue to comment in these threads because people like you make me feel like you have to be all knowing. and if you don't know something, it's ridiculed and criticize like there's no room for error. but thank you anyway for enlightening me.
tell me where i can find this creed.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 12:55:35 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3279
Joined: 4/12/2005
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You can google the Nicene Creed and read it online.
If you have been studying the bible for so long and a Christian for so many years - don't you attend a church that teaches these things?
I'm just asking because it sounds like you have been reyling on your own reasoning for scripture, when in fact scripture does interpret scripture and makes itself very clear.
Forgive any offense on my part please.
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 1:17:30 PM
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restored08
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
You can google the Nicene Creed and read it online.
If you have been studying the bible for so long and a Christian for so many years - don't you attend a church that teaches these things?
I'm just asking because it sounds like you have been reyling on your own reasoning for scripture, when in fact scripture does interpret scripture and makes itself very clear.
Forgive any offense on my part please.
I've been studying the bible but hadn't gotten around studying a lot of things such as this creed. i'd never heard of this creed. the church i go to is a very new ministry and i just joined this church about 5 months ago. i had been visiting different churches, trying to find a good fit for me and i finally found one. and no i haven't been relying on my own reasoning, i am filled with the Holy Spirit that reveals to me the meaning of scripture. i do admit that sometimes it's hard for me to submit to what's revealed to me because I'm not totally right. I'm growing. but not to tell my life story. but i do thank you alot. that's why i registered to these forums , to learn and continue in spiritual growth and i thank God for you.
and also can i find this particular creed in my bible?
< Message edited by restored08 -- 4/10/2008 1:25:11 PM >
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:05:34 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 383
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is entirely possible to be water baptized and not be saved. But, it is entirely impossible to be Spiritually baptized and not be saved.
I like this too. If it's possble to be water baptized and not be saved, then it must be possible to be water baptized and be saved. What did the man do different who was baptized and saved? Obviously nothing since there is nothing that man can do that results in salvation. Therefore, baptism is not a work, since what man does in baptism is not what brings about salvation. It is what God does in baptism that results in salvation.
No. It is what we do with Jesus, that results in salvation. Believe and be saved, or not believe and not be saved. Baptism is not a work of man, it is a work of the Spirit...and it has nothing to do with water.
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 4/10/2008 2:12:27 PM >
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:09:59 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 383
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is entirely possible to be water baptized and not be saved. But, it is entirely impossible to be Spiritually baptized and not be saved.
I like this too. If it's possble to be water baptized and not be saved, then it must be possible to be water baptized and be saved. What did the man do different who was baptized and saved? Obviously nothing since there is nothing that man can do that results in salvation....
Therefore, one either enters the water saved before baptism or only enters the water lost before getting dunked.
People who were baptized by John did not get saved by the water - and that includes Jesus who did not need salvation. He did it as a sign - just as we who are His redeemed do it as a sign and a testimony in honor of Him.
Well said Jimbo.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:11:36 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
And if you have a bible dictionary and look up the reference code in my bible it gives for the definition in this particular scripture washed. And usually to wash something would denote water was involved, right?
Often, but not necessarily. Titus 3:5 speaks of washing (I interpret "cleansing") by the HS. Physical water isn't mentioned.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:24:52 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2298
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
And where did you read that Jesus was first in heaven (I mean before His death, resurrection and accension)?
seriously
Book of John starting with verse 1.
Thank you for that, doinkdom.
But wouldn't it be true to say that Jesus himself didn't come directly from heaven because He was born flesh and lived in a fleshly body, as you and I do?
You are serious.
Directly from heaven - you mean just *poof* and He appeared on earth one day?
Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, born of the virgin Mary
The Nicene Creed does a much better job of expressing the diety of Christ.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
yes i was serious. i've been saved for 15 years but i've only been studying the bible maybe 6 of those 15 years. so i'm still learning like a lot other people are, including you. but it makes me not want to continue to comment in these threads because people like you make me feel like you have to be all knowing. and if you don't know something, it's ridiculed and criticize like there's no room for error. but thank you anyway for enlightening me.
tell me where i can find this creed.
I can understand, but please be patient with us here. It helps to know where people are in their walk and whether they are attacking or questioning doctrines, etc. All of us run into people now and then that come across the wrong way and I think I've been guilty of that a lot. I've learned a lot and don't let comments directed at my intelligence bother me as much as they used. My husband used to tell me I needed to stop posting if I was going to end up in tears. I want you to know that I have learned an incredible amount of Bible knowledge here by comparing what people are saying to what I can read in my Bible. I hope you'll decide to stay.
The creed( a creed is no good if it isn't based on the Bible):
Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]*; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic**, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins***. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
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