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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:30:19 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So if someone has not yet been born of the Spirit, are they 1/2 born again? Since there are two births taught that must be done to enter into the kingdom of heaven, if only one of them is done, wouldn't that person be.... half saved?
Good point!! If by saying "water" Jesus means physical birth, then everyone in the world is already half way to heaven. 
GD, that is pure foolishness that is beneath you and you know it.
There is no "again" until the second birth. The "again" is spiritual.
Then if birth of water is not even important to see the kingdom of God, then why would Jesus even waste his breath in mentioning it?
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:31:49 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8793
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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The point is that it is a c omparison. Everyone is born of water. however, that is not enough. You have to be born of water (original birth) and then born of the Spirit (2nd birth, rebirth, born again)
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:34:41 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
The point is that it is a c omparison. Everyone is born of water. however, that is not enough. You have to be born of water (original birth) and then born of the Spirit (2nd birth, rebirth, born again)
everyone is born of water? Even aborted babies?
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:36:12 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3279
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Thanks Ephesians4_32...hope that helps you out restored08
This might help, too: The purpose of a creed is to act as a yardstick of correct belief. The creeds of Christianity have been drawn up at times of conflict about doctrine: acceptance or rejection of a creed served to distinguish believers and deniers of a particular doctrine or set of doctrines.
_____________________________
Religion is about me. Gospel is about Jesus -- Mark Driscoll
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:36:15 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2292
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
restored08, in theological terms, repentance and remission are not identical.
Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense.
I'm not a theologist or anything but my bible dictionary gives basically the same meaning for both words, to stop, cancel, change or desist.
As for pardon and forgive they're the same
pardon--To excuse or [u]forgive for a fault.
forgive- to[u] pardon, excuse or claim requital for a fault.
I don't know how else to say this, repentance and remission are two different things. One YOU do, the other JESUS had to do because you AREN'T ABLE to satisfy God's demands.
Repentance is a change of YOUR mind and YOUR course.
Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense BY JESUS.
You can have the REPENTANCE without REMISSION and still be LOST, even if you get dunked 100 times a day.
Amen!
It clarifies things if we realize that the Greek word for "remission" (aphesis) is the same as for "forgiveness." His BLOOD pays for and washes our sins away. It is what He did (gave His life), not what we do(get baptized), that saves us.
"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" - Matthew 26:28
But thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ, "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" - Ephesians 1:7
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:39:19 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2292
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
The point is that it is a c omparison. Everyone is born of water. however, that is not enough. You have to be born of water (original birth) and then born of the Spirit (2nd birth, rebirth, born again)
everyone is born of water? Even aborted babies?
Everyone to whom Jesus is speaking has been born of water. He isn't speaking to aborted babies or those who have already died a physical death.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:41:25 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So if someone has not yet been born of the Spirit, are they 1/2 born again? Since there are two births taught that must be done to enter into the kingdom of heaven, if only one of them is done, wouldn't that person be.... half saved?
Good point!! If by saying "water" Jesus means physical birth, then everyone in the world is already half way to heaven.
GD, that is pure foolishness that is beneath you and you know it.
There is no "again" until the second birth. The "again" is spiritual.
Then if birth of water is not even important to see the kingdom of God, then why would Jesus even waste his breath in mentioning it?
If you are reading this, then you have been born of water.
Jesus was explaining to Nick that, that was not enough. Being born into this physical world is not enough. Exactly because salvation is a spiritual matter. Salvation is the restoration of the Spirit of God within man. The Spirit that was lost in Adam.
It is not enough to be born naturally, one must be born again of the Spirit. The Spirit IS life...eternal life. That Spiritual life is the answer to the condition of all who are born naturally. We are all born dead [spiritually] and in need of life.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:46:37 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1190
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what did the baptism ritual mean to the jew? why did Jesus do it?
btw the mainline denom that my grandparents belonged to and my parents and....never used creeds for teaching. never heard of them till quite aways into my adult life.
my church teaches this about baptism, the pastor literally says one sentence: "if you're a christian and haven't been baptized, then you should" that's it. now if you decide to get baptized, THEN you go to a class to learn about it.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:47:04 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
Joined: 1/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
The point is that it is a c omparison. Everyone is born of water. however, that is not enough. You have to be born of water (original birth) and then born of the Spirit (2nd birth, rebirth, born again)
everyone is born of water? Even aborted babies?
Everyone to whom Jesus is speaking has been born of water. He isn't speaking to aborted babies or those who have already died a physical death.
How do u know this? He was only speaking to Nicodemus at the time, and ur right, he had already ben born of water, so why even mention birth of water if it refers to a natural birth? It makes little sense. It is a very strange way to describe the natural birth, especially since this usage does not appear anywhere else in Scripture or in ordinary speech. The context also seems to support that Jesus informed Nicodemus that the new birth was a birth of water AND of Spirit, not just Spirit, but two components. A comparison of verses 3 and 5 seems to show that the new birth is equivalent to being born of water and of the Spirit. Also it would appear that if birth of water as a natural birth, then Jesus told Nicodemus to do something which he had already done, which again makes no sense, or he told him to doa physical impossibility, if this was the case, then Nicodemus's question was a very good one, and Jesus would not have rebuked him. It also seems very unnecessary to say we must be born into this world since everyone obviously already has been.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 2:55:27 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 97
Joined: 1/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
So if someone has not yet been born of the Spirit, are they 1/2 born again? Since there are two births taught that must be done to enter into the kingdom of heaven, if only one of them is done, wouldn't that person be.... half saved?
Good point!! If by saying "water" Jesus means physical birth, then everyone in the world is already half way to heaven.
GD, that is pure foolishness that is beneath you and you know it.
There is no "again" until the second birth. The "again" is spiritual.
Then if birth of water is not even important to see the kingdom of God, then why would Jesus even waste his breath in mentioning it?
Because He said you can't be born only once to see the Kingdom of God. You have to be born again.
Will you share your view of how one is born again?
Correct! Simply being born - and being born a Jew - and keeping the Law and rituals - and sacrifices - and anything else you can think of is not enough to be saved. It takes being born AND being born again.
I completely agree
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 3:01:49 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
what did the baptism ritual mean to the jew?
Good question. Jews did/do not baptize other Jews. They feel that they are already clean, being Gods chosen people and all. The only purpose of baptism for Jews, was to make clean Gentiles, who wished to convert to Judaism.
Jews only Baptize Gentiles.
You can imagine their surprise then, to see John the Baptist baptizing Jews. I am sure they were dumbfounded and also furious. I believe this was to show that Jews were also unclean. That they were just like everyone else.
After Jesus death and resurrection, Gentiles, and a lot of others also, logically thought that it was necessary to become a Jew first, in order to be a Believer in Jesus. This is why you see Gentiles asking to be water baptized in Acts
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 3:18:16 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
what did the baptism ritual mean to the jew?
Good question. Jews did/do not baptize other Jews. They feel that they are already clean, being Gods chosen people and all. The only purpose of baptism for Jews, was to make clean Gentiles, who wished to convert to Judaism.
Jews only Baptize Gentiles.
You can imagine their surprise then, to see John the Baptist baptizing Jews. I am sure they were dumbfounded and also furious. I believe this was to show that Jews were also unclean. That they were just like everyone else.
After Jesus death and resurrection, Gentiles, and a lot of others also, logically thought that it was necessary to become a Jew first, in order to be a Believer in Jesus. This is why you see Gentiles asking to be water baptized in Acts
HUH???????
They thought that they needed to become a Jew in order to be a Follower of the Way [Christians]. For a Gentile to become a Jew they needed to be baptized with water.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 3:23:17 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
what did the baptism ritual mean to the jew?
Good question. Jews did/do not baptize other Jews. They feel that they are already clean, being Gods chosen people and all. The only purpose of baptism for Jews, was to make clean Gentiles, who wished to convert to Judaism.
Jews only Baptize Gentiles.
You can imagine their surprise then, to see John the Baptist baptizing Jews. I am sure they were dumbfounded and also furious. I believe this was to show that Jews were also unclean. That they were just like everyone else.
After Jesus death and resurrection, Gentiles, and a lot of others also, logically thought that it was necessary to become a Jew first, in order to be a Believer in Jesus. This is why you see Gentiles asking to be water baptized in Acts
HUH???????
I'm quite lost on this one, too. 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 3:32:11 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I kinda thought when Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age," that He..., well..., meant just that.
quote:
what did the baptism ritual mean to the jew?
Yes?
The question I was answering was...
What did the baptism ritual mean to the Jew?
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 3:41:25 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3708
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I kinda thought when Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age," that He..., well..., meant just that.
quote:
what did the baptism ritual mean to the jew?
Yes?
The question I was answering was...
What did the baptism ritual mean to the Jew?
But you ended with a most unusual comment about the reason Gentiles requested baptism. I think they wanted baptism because it was explained to them that Jesus commanded it.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 3:49:18 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I kinda thought when Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age," that He..., well..., meant just that.
quote:
what did the baptism ritual mean to the jew?
Yes?
The question I was answering was...
What did the baptism ritual mean to the Jew?
But you ended with a most unusual comment about the reason Gentiles requested baptism. I think they wanted baptism because it was explained to them that Jesus commanded it.
I think many were under the belief that they needed to convert to Judaism. This was a common belief among many early converts.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 4:04:34 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3708
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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The vast majority of early Christians were Jewish. Those Christians were the sole source of information on becoming a Christian. And when the Gospel began to be shared with numbers of Gentiles, the question about conversion to Judaism was quickly settled by Church leaders (in the book of Acts).
Personally, I don't think many Gentiles ever were confused over the need to become Jews first.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 4:08:31 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1190
Status: offline
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the epistles address the NOT needing to become circed etc many times.
people were coming to jhn to be baptized before Jesus said to do it. then Jesus. what was that all about?
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 4:13:51 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The vast majority of early Christians were Jewish. Those Christians were the sole source of information on becoming a Christian. And when the Gospel began to be shared with numbers of Gentiles, the question about conversion to Judaism was quickly settled by Church leaders (in the book of Acts).
Personally, I don't think many Gentiles ever were confused over the need to become Jews first.
Who do you suppose Paul was addressing in most of his writings?
This is a non issue for me. I certainly would not want to see two brothers become less over it. Major on the majors, minor on the minors. Peace.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 4:20:01 PM
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restored08
Posts: 77
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
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[/quote]
yes i was serious. i've been saved for 15 years but i've only been studying the bible maybe 6 of those 15 years. so i'm still learning like a lot other people are, including you. but it makes me not want to continue to comment in these threads because people like you make me feel like you have to be all knowing. and if you don't know something, it's ridiculed and criticize like there's no room for error. but thank you anyway for enlightening me.
tell me where i can find this creed.
[/quote]
I can understand, but please be patient with us here. It helps to know where people are in their walk and whether they are attacking or questioning doctrines, etc. All of us run into people now and then that come across the wrong way and I think I've been guilty of that a lot. I've learned a lot and don't let comments directed at my intelligence bother me as much as they used. My husband used to tell me I needed to stop posting if I was going to end up in tears. I want you to know that I have learned an incredible amount of Bible knowledge here by comparing what people are saying to what I can read in my Bible. I hope you'll decide to stay.
The creed( a creed is no good if it isn't based on the Bible):
Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]*; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic**, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins***. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
[/quote]
Eph4_32, thank you so much. and do pray for me my real name is beverly.
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RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism - 4/10/2008 4:21:39 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3708
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The vast majority of early Christians were Jewish. Those Christians were the sole source of information on becoming a Christian. And when the Gospel began to be shared with numbers of Gentiles, the question about conversion to Judaism was quickly settled by Church leaders (in the book of Acts).
Personally, I don't think many Gentiles ever were confused over the need to become Jews first.
Who do you suppose Paul was addressing in most of his writings?
This is a non issue for me. I certainly would not want to see two brothers become less over it. Major on the majors, minor on the minors. Peace.
To save a large post, read Acts 15. The leaders came together for the purpose of addressing this issue and sent letters to the Gentile believers about becoming Jews. The idea for them becoming Jews first came, not from the Gentile believers, but from the outside (Jewish converts that were legalists).
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