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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 8:22:38 PM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
this person is on the sex registry as a sex offender for "attempted sexual battery without violence".
You know, this is something the OP said that struck me as odd, and perhaps it's an implication that he is attempting to make light of the crime the guy in his church was guilty of.
"Attempted sexual battery without violence"...just wondering how that works? The definition of Sexual Battery is:
"The forced penetration of or contact with another person’s or the perpetrator’s sexual organs. See also rape."
Just wondering how you attempt to do this to someone without violence. To me, the "forced" part is what makes the crime violent.
Was the charge reduced in order to get a conviction? Sometimes what happens is worse than what is charged due to evidence and the ability to convict.
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Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 10:37:18 PM
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Qtman
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Check out this link. Maybe it will answer the question and explain the position of people like RCjames, myself and others.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 1:54:08 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
and when i read thru his paper work from the courts etc....it stated that they had consentual sex,but later she cried rape.
Court paperwork leaves out many details relevant to the case. The complaint, if that's what you're reading, is only a synopsis of the police report. There is so much more that all the reports will not cover. Has the guy completed sex offender treatment? If so, is he following all of his relapse prevention plan? Can he tell you about his deviant fantasies? Are you willing to hear them and not judge him?
As for the question of charges being reduced for a conviction. Unfortunnately, this happens all too frequently. I've seen far too many crim sex cases plead out to lesser charges, still crim sex, but not requiring commitment to prison. Instead, the offender gets probation and a stayed prison sentence. For some it works well. Unfortunately far too many earn their way to prison because they aren't willing to change (repent) and, sometimes, they gain new victims.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 8:22:34 AM
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percussionlover
Posts: 83
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yes....this guy has completed sex offender treatment etc...he's been off probation now for over 5 years. when he was sentenced,he was sentenced for 5 years probation. which included sex offender treatment.part of the sex offender treatment was to take a polygraph every 6 months while the offender is on probation to see if he or she has been reoffending etc...if they have been,then its investigated & more than likely its a violation & that individual is sent back to prison. this person was never issued a tracking device etc...cause he wasnt a child molestor etc...this guy did everything he was supposed to do & more what was required of him. i recently spoke with his former probation officer who said he was excellent when it came to compliance & never had a problem with him during the 5 years of his probation & never got complaints etc...from the public. when i spoke to his treatment therapist,he said that he never failed a polygraph during the time he was on probation or treatment.............(by the way...the polygraph results for sex offenders in his state is public record)
his treatment therapist went on to say that he finished his treatment early cause he felt didnt need it anymore,cause during this time is when he got saved etc.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
and when i read thru his paper work from the courts etc....it stated that they had consentual sex,but later she cried rape.
Court paperwork leaves out many details relevant to the case. The complaint, if that's what you're reading, is only a synopsis of the police report. There is so much more that all the reports will not cover. Has the guy completed sex offender treatment? If so, is he following all of his relapse prevention plan? Can he tell you about his deviant fantasies? Are you willing to hear them and not judge him?
As for the question of charges being reduced for a conviction. Unfortunnately, this happens all too frequently. I've seen far too many crim sex cases plead out to lesser charges, still crim sex, but not requiring commitment to prison. Instead, the offender gets probation and a stayed prison sentence. For some it works well. Unfortunately far too many earn their way to prison because they aren't willing to change (repent) and, sometimes, they gain new victims.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 2:53:16 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10241
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
this guy did everything he was supposed to do & more what was required of him. i recently spoke with his former probation officer who said he was excellent when it came to compliance & never had a problem with him during the 5 years of his probation & never got complaints etc...from the public. when i spoke to his treatment therapist,he said that he never failed a polygraph during the time he was on probation or treatment.............(by the way...the polygraph results for sex offenders in his state is public record)
his treatment therapist went on to say that he finished his treatment early cause he felt didnt need it anymore,cause during this time is when he got saved etc.....
Good! Wonderful!
I have forgiven some big stuff, and been forgiven some big stuff. I am so not against forgiveness! However, if at one time in their life, a person does something that makes them (or SHOULD make them) ineligible to work in certain ministries, then so be it. There are plenty of church ministries available for all kinds of people and all kinds of giftings.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 4:04:07 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1053
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quote:
percussionlover
yes....this guy has completed sex offender treatment etc...he's been off probation now for over 5 years. when he was sentenced,he was sentenced for 5 years probation. which included sex offender treatment.part of the sex offender treatment was to take a polygraph every 6 months while the offender is on probation to see if he or she has been reoffending etc...if they have been,then its investigated & more than likely its a violation & that individual is sent back to prison. this person was never issued a tracking device etc...cause he wasnt a child molestor etc...this guy did everything he was supposed to do & more what was required of him. i recently spoke with his former probation officer who said he was excellent when it came to compliance & never had a problem with him during the 5 years of his probation & never got complaints etc...from the public. when i spoke to his treatment therapist,he said that he never failed a polygraph during the time he was on probation or treatment.............(by the way...the polygraph results for sex offenders in his state is public record)
his treatment therapist went on to say that he finished his treatment early cause he felt didnt need it anymore,cause during this time is when he got saved etc.....
I'm glad to hear he has completed sex offender treatment and that the polygraph was a required component of the program. I'm guessing that if you were able to speak to the therapist and the probation officer, that there must be a very close relationship. Otherwise, there would be a confidentiality violation.
As I said before, I worked with a sex offender caseload for five years as a probation officer. I know many men and women who have completed treatment that I believe would never reoffend. With one individual, I came to his defense when a group of mother's became upset because the man's wife was a girl scout troop leader. The man never attended any of the meetings, was never around any of the girls during scout events. Because of his conviction, he did not want to bring problems to the troop. However, one of the mother's, the wife of a cop, found out that he was registered and thre a fit that the wife of an offender was the troop leader for the girl scouts. During a conversation with this particular irate mother, she asked if I would be willing to allow him to watch my kids. I told her I would. I said this with confidence because I know the man. I know him intimately as i have worked with him to dig through his personal garbage and remove the mask. The irate mother only saw the monster she wanted to see thanks to the registry.
Again, while your heart seems to be in the right place, advising people to "get over it," places the public in great danger. Again, we need to get to know each other just as Christ knows us.
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You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 4:54:22 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16594
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quote:
i recently spoke with his former probation officer who said he was excellent when it came to compliance & never had a problem with him during the 5 years of his probation & never got complaints etc...from the public.
his treatment therapist went on to say that he finished his treatment early cause he felt didnt need it anymore,cause during this time is when he got saved etc.....
How were you able to receive this information without breaking confidentiality laws?
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 4:58:44 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9263
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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That's kind of what I'm wondering...
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Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 5:05:57 PM
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percussionlover
Posts: 83
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quote:
How were you able to receive this information without breaking confidentiality laws?
the info wasnt confidential...it was public record.the only thing i was told was that he completed the sex offender treatment program early & that he passed all his polygraphs....there was no confidentiality broke.the probation officer said he was an excellent client with no problems etc...that i stated before...
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/20/2008 5:14:53 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1053
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quote:
the info wasnt confidential...it was public record.the only thing i was told was that he completed the sex offender treatment program early & that he passed all his polygraphs....there was no confidentiality broke.the probation officer said he was an excellent client with no problems etc...that i stated before...
Wrong. None of this is public record. If your state allows polygraph results to be public record, I'm sure it does not disclose the questions asked and the answers to them. As I said, the only way you can have access to this is if you and the offender are so close that he signed a release for you to get it, or if you signed a release to be a community support person as part of his treatment. If you were told that he completed early and passed polygraphs, you are getting the standard answer to indicate he jumped through all the right hoops.
How well do you really know this person?
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You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/21/2008 8:53:44 AM
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bluestone
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I have had the priviledge to serve on a Grand Jury a couple of times.
We had several molestation cases involving church incidents.
Music minister, three youth ministers, and a Sr. Pastor. (ones I remember in detail)
once the crime ocurred, and they were arrested and investigated, it was discovered some had done the same thing a past churches, but the families were "hushed up" and the men given the opportunity to resign and move on to other churches!!
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/21/2008 9:26:35 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
once the crime ocurred, and they were arrested and investigated, it was discovered some had done the same thing a past churches, but the families were "hushed up" and the men given the opportunity to resign and move on to other churches!!
If a parents child is raped and burtalized, I do not see any way for them to be "hushed up". No way, no how.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/21/2008 10:07:49 AM
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bluestone
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They were told the pastor had been removed and would never pastor again,(in all cases) and that he was in jail already (in one case).
In one case, cash was given to the family.
Only one of these was actual rape, the others involved fondling.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/21/2008 10:17:10 AM
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WalkingwithHim2
Posts: 2334
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quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
quote:
How were you able to receive this information without breaking confidentiality laws?
the info wasnt confidential...it was public record.the only thing i was told was that he completed the sex offender treatment program early & that he passed all his polygraphs....there was no confidentiality broke.the probation officer said he was an excellent client with no problems etc...that i stated before...
So are you his attorney, the victim's attorney, the judge, the court stenographer or his probation officer...if not you have NO idea what the actual court records say. And if you somehow gained access to that paperwork it appears as though someone has broken either the chain of evidence or breached confideniality.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/21/2008 12:59:41 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1053
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
bluestone
I have had the priviledge to serve on a Grand Jury a couple of times.
We had several molestation cases involving church incidents.
Music minister, three youth ministers, and a Sr. Pastor. (ones I remember in detail)
once the crime ocurred, and they were arrested and investigated, it was discovered some had done the same thing a past churches, but the families were "hushed up" and the men given the opportunity to resign and move on to other churches!!
quote:
If a parents child is raped and burtalized, I do not see any way for them to be "hushed up". No way, no how.
Thanks
RC
Oh how I wish I could say this does not happen over and over again. Look at the scandal within the Catholic church. How many of those priests are on the registry? How many of them have been charged and ocnvicted? They were moved on after being discovered. In eveangelical churches things are not much different. All too often when someone is caught, they move on. Emotions run high and people want to handle it within their congregation. Once the problem leaves, we wash our hands of him/her and praise the Lord that he/she is not our problem anymore.
We MUST remember if something like this occurs in our congregation that we have to bring the police into the matter. Failure to do so will allow the offender to move on and begin grooming another pool of victims.
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You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/21/2008 11:30:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3794
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
once the crime ocurred, and they were arrested and investigated, it was discovered some had done the same thing a past churches, but the families were "hushed up" and the men given the opportunity to resign and move on to other churches!!
If a parents child is raped and burtalized, I do not see any way for them to be "hushed up". No way, no how.
Thanks
RC
For every one reported act of pedophilia 30 go unreported... The sex scandal in the Catholic Chuch was "hushed up" for who knows how many years and probably still is in some places... Most of the time the victims feels it's best to remain silent... That's what I did, my mother did(she was molested by a member of the church leadership in her own fathers church) and two of my children did untill the police talk to them and then the other two spoke up...
John
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/22/2008 9:25:06 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5043
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
For every one reported act of pedophilia 30 go unreported... The sex scandal in the Catholic Chuch was "hushed up" for who knows how many years and probably still is in some places... Most of the time the victims feels it's best to remain silent... That's what I did, my mother did(she was molested by a member of the church leadership in her own fathers church) and two of my children did untill the police talk to them and then the other two spoke up...
Speaking as a parent, I would never be hushed up, nor do I understand how any parent could be hushed up by any anount of money or spiritual intimidation.
I would be camped on the District Attorney's door step until an investigation was made. I would not gossip about it. tell anyone else, or go public with it, but would go to the authorities. If it had anything to do with Church leadership I would also (not instead of the DA), but also go to Pastor/Board of my Church.
Over the years I have always had great sucess with the authorities when a problem involced the harm of children.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/22/2008 1:15:55 PM >
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/22/2008 10:36:36 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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OUr Gov. is trying to pass a law to make rape of a child under the age of 12 a crime punishable by death. It seems our state is not the first to do this either. HMMM I wonder how much a child molestor could control himself if he knew he could die for his crime.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/22/2008 11:00:32 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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From: United States of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
OUr Gov. is trying to pass a law to make rape of a child under the age of 12 a crime punishable by death. It seems our state is not the first to do this either. HMMM I wonder how much a child molestor could control himself if he knew he could die for his crime.
I think they would do it anyways, but it would keep the prisons from being clogged with them, if we could do away with longwinded appeal processes.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/22/2008 11:03:36 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 10812
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
OUr Gov. is trying to pass a law to make rape of a child under the age of 12 a crime punishable by death. It seems our state is not the first to do this either. HMMM I wonder how much a child molestor could control himself if he knew he could die for his crime.
I think they would do it anyways, but it would keep the prisons from being clogged with them, if we could do away with longwinded appeal processes.
I am afraid I have to agree with Bluestone. It has been my experience that punishment or possible punishment does not deter many criminals from pursuing their livelihood or their desires. If it did the prisons would be empty.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/22/2008 11:56:35 AM
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P31W
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I have not attended a church that "didn't have" a child molester in it's midst for decades now.
To date none have give us any problems or even "tried" to associate with the children/youth. They know that there are always going to be certain members of the congregation watching them.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/22/2008 3:08:49 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1053
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
2monkeysmom
OUr Gov. is trying to pass a law to make rape of a child under the age of 12 a crime punishable by death. It seems our state is not the first to do this either. HMMM I wonder how much a child molestor could control himself if he knew he could die for his crime.
It's another panacea. Politicians promising to make laws to deter crime and make their constituents feel safe. Child molesters, perverts, etc, just like drug addicts, are not deterred by what could happen. Not until they are caught, anyway. Even then, they aren't deterred. They're, hopefully, just confined.
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You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/22/2008 8:10:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3794
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
For every one reported act of pedophilia 30 go unreported... The sex scandal in the Catholic Chuch was "hushed up" for who knows how many years and probably still is in some places... Most of the time the victims feels it's best to remain silent... That's what I did, my mother did(she was molested by a member of the church leadership in her own fathers church) and two of my children did untill the police talk to them and then the other two spoke up...
Speaking as a parent, I would never be hushed up, nor do I understand how any parent could be hushed up by any anount of money or spiritual intimidation.
I would be camped on the District Attorney's door step until an investigation was made. I would not gossip about it. tell anyone else, or go public with it, but would go to the authorities. If it had anything to do with Church leadership I would also (not instead of the DA), but also go to Pastor/Board of my Church.
Over the years I have always had great sucess with the authorities when a problem involced the harm of children.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
I trust you wouldn't, but the sad fact is that 80% of the time it's a family member and only one time out 30 is it reported... That's a lot of parents looking the other way... The victim's advocate person said I was the first parent who spent more than a hour or two with her regarding the case for my children in years. Since they didn't have to testify the court allowed me to represent them...
For the record I went public... And the look on the Youth Pastor's face when I told him it about my nephew was of complete shock... My nephew (who faced up to 10 charges of 288a) was helping out with the youth while raping my children... One of the greatest allies of the pedophile is keeping things under raps...
As well... I had to complain to the State Attorney General in Sacramento in order for the local DA to do something... He was released on his own OR initially… Soon he had to post 15K… From my research I found the normal bail for one count was 25K and for more than 2 counts it was 50K. He was facing 8 counts. He pleaded those down to 4 and later 2 more where added on behalf of my daughter, which later were pleaded to nothing… Don’t ask…. ;( All in all he received 1 year in county and 6 years probation. Regardless that the during the 45 day eval at San Quentin they declared him a Class A Predator. 2 and half years later he didn’t register his move and the very diligent Detective Currant who had been there from the start track him down and he ended up getting 13 year and 4 months and the most he can shave off his term is 15%...
John
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/23/2008 2:36:49 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3856
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Percussion:
What is it that your friend wants to do that he is being prevented from doing Re: church and ministry?
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