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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/11/2008 2:51:36 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
There is nothing magical that happens when an embryo implants, it just continues to develop; and a definition of personhood can't be derived based on survival rates.
Actually, I would say quite a few "magical" things happen (to both baby and mom) at implantation. I don't disagree with your take on the implications of implantation to the determination of personhood. But it really is quite a monumental event in the development of the unborn.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/11/2008 3:06:54 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Well, I believe that your body can be alive but you're not.
Can the reverse be true? Hmmm...
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/11/2008 3:08:53 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Interesting question!
Another question could be, "When does personhood end?" There are certain medical bioethicists who believe that severely handicapped people have lost their "personhood". The case of Terri Scaivo comes to mind -
Well, I believe that your body can be alive but you're not.
Perhaps so...
But at what point does one lose their "personhood". The distinction between simply being a "human" and being a "person" is one used by certain bioethicists who seem to want to remove basic human rights from the severely handicapped. To me this seems no less heartless than "abortion on demand".
Well, some believe that life begins at brain function and ends when brain function ceases. I think the severly handicapped still have brain function (according that that stance)... a "vegetable" would not though. Now, the people who think that rationality, reason, self-consciousness, ability to communicate, etc. are criteria for "life," that probably would mean that they think some severely handicapped aren't people.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/11/2008 3:12:02 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2908
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Interesting question!
Another question could be, "When does personhood end?" There are certain medical bioethicists who believe that severely handicapped people have lost their "personhood". The case of Terri Scaivo comes to mind -
I have always wondered this as well.
Looking into my Mothers' eyes about a week before she died, I just knew she wasn't there anymore.
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 When you go through menopause they don't tell you what you are becoming. I think I'm becoming my Dad.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/11/2008 3:17:33 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Now, the people who think that rationality, reason, self-consciousness, ability to communicate, etc. are criteria for "life," that probably would mean that they think some severely handicapped aren't people.
And by the same criteria, (rationality, reason, self-consciousness, ability to communicate) some bioethicists argue that new-born babies are candidates for "post-natal" abortion. Peter Singer of Princeton is the bioethicist I have heard make these kind of outrageous assertions.
Clearly, not only the definition of when life begins and ends is a critical issue - but now the distinction of "personhood" becomes an issue - both at the beginning of life as well as the end of life.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/11/2008 3:17:43 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Actually, I would say quite a few "magical" things happen (to both baby and mom) at implantation. I don't disagree with your take on the implications of implantation to the determination of personhood. But it really is quite a monumental event in the development of the unborn.
Well I agree they are fanatastic and phenomenal, but nonetheless readily explainable by biology, no magic required.
Yes, hence my quotes. Still, our understanding of the biology behind God's design does not make it any less miraculous, IMO.
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DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
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thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/11/2008 3:24:17 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Interesting question!
Another question could be, "When does personhood end?" There are certain medical bioethicists who believe that severely handicapped people have lost their "personhood". The case of Terri Scaivo comes to mind -
I have always wondered this as well.
Looking into my Mothers' eyes about a week before she died, I just knew she wasn't there anymore.
I understand what you are saying and I agree that when someone has either suffered from disease, accident, or old age it may seem like there is no conciousness there even though the person may be breathing on their own and their heart is beating on its own.
There problem I have is where a person (doctor, lawyer, medical ethicist, or concerned relative) makes the decision to end a life. It seems to me that when that occurs we are allowing a person to take the place of God as the One from whom life is given and taken away. I have this concern whether we are talking about a pre-born fetus or comatose patient.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 1:21:18 AM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
Pre-implantation, there is no external human impact that I know of which determines if an embryo will spontaneously abort or not.
One of the mechanisms of action of birth control pills is that it can cause the uterus to be such that a fertilized egg (baby) will not implant, which would be an external cause.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 1:33:42 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
Pre-implantation, there is no external human impact that I know of which determines if an embryo will spontaneously abort or not.
One of the mechanisms of action of birth control pills is that it can cause the uterus to be such that a fertilized egg (baby) will not implant, which would be an external cause.
I think a good thing to note here is that not everyone buys the "fact" that bc causes this to happen, including some doctors and scientitsts. I do believe that there are things humans do all that time that cause their own miscarriages/spontaneous abortions-- they just didn't know they were doing it (or did it).
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 2:12:45 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
I think a good thing to note here is that not everyone buys the "fact" that bc causes this to happen, including some doctors and scientitsts
But it is still *fact* that it is designed and intended to to this, and it is stated by the makers themselves.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 6:08:16 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
I think a good thing to note here is that not everyone buys the "fact" that bc causes this to happen, including some doctors and scientitsts
But it is still *fact* that it is designed and intended to to this, and it is stated by the makers themselves.
If the makers themselves state it, that doesn't make it true-- that goes for everything.  Even the literature conflicts about it. The fact is that they SAY this or that, not that it is so. Some don't believe that it is so. It's fine if people do; all I'm saying is that not everyone believes it or holds it. I suspect it may work that way for some women, but not all.
Do you have a reference for the literature that says this mechanism does not exist? I have read much literature that supports it, including the Physician's Desk Reference.
Just how common of a practice is it for doctor's to recommend/prescribe a drug of some kind to someone that may have a side affect or mechanism of action stated by the manufacturer and/or PDR that the person would take issue with, but the doctor recommends/prescribes it anyway because the doctor does not believe what the manufacturer/PDR says?
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 6:18:33 PM
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called2valor
Posts: 73
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Psalm 139
13 For it was You who created my inward parts;
You knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You,
because I have been remarkably and wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
and I know [this] very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You
when I was made in secret,
when I was formed in the depths of the earth.
==================
When David is writing here from inspiration of the Spirit, even before he was born he WAS a "me" and an "I" even before he was born and as he was forming.
"Me" and "I" is surely personhood.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 7:03:56 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2343
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: called2valor
Psalm 139
13 For it was You who created my inward parts;
You knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You,
because I have been remarkably and wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
and I know [this] very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You
when I was made in secret,
when I was formed in the depths of the earth.
==================
When David is writing here from inspiration of the Spirit, even before he was born he WAS a "me" and an "I" even before he was born and as he was forming.
"Me" and "I" is surely personhood.
So, when does personhood begin according to that passage?
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 7:54:49 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2343
Joined: 4/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
I think a good thing to note here is that not everyone buys the "fact" that bc causes this to happen, including some doctors and scientitsts
But it is still *fact* that it is designed and intended to to this, and it is stated by the makers themselves.
If the makers themselves state it, that doesn't make it true-- that goes for everything. Even the literature conflicts about it. The fact is that they SAY this or that, not that it is so. Some don't believe that it is so. It's fine if people do; all I'm saying is that not everyone believes it or holds it. I suspect it may work that way for some women, but not all.
Do you have a reference for the literature that says this mechanism does not exist? I have read much literature that supports it, including the Physician's Desk Reference.
Just how common of a practice is it for doctor's to recommend/prescribe a drug of some kind to someone that may have a side affect or mechanism of action stated by the manufacturer and/or PDR that the person would take issue with, but the doctor recommends/prescribes it anyway because the doctor does not believe what the manufacturer/PDR says?
I'll see if I can dig some up when I'm back (low on time today). But that secondary mechanism (that it makes the endometrial lining inhospitable this preventing implantation) is a hypothesis. People want to say it's a fact. A hypothesis isn't a fact. But there are different kinds of birth control. It doesn't really matter to me if someone thinks it does or doesn't do that; what bothers me is when people say something is fact but it's not. The mechanism may exist, but call it what it is, and tell patients the truth as we know it right now. They can decide for themselves.. if it bothers them that it *might* prevent implantation, then they don't have to go with it.
I was able to find one quick article from a google search for you though:
HERE; it's basically one paragraph (the top and bottom are the same-- I think the top was meant to be the abstract).
And this one site here... it's a pro-life one actually: "An extensive review of pertinent scientific writings indicates that there is no credible evidence to validate a mechanism of pre-implantation abortion as a part of the action of hormone contraceptives. On the contrary, the existing evidence indicates that "on pill" conceptions are handled by the reproductive system with the same results seen with "off pill" conceptions..." From HERE
This one might especially interest you:
"Although these changes are consistently seen in women taking OCs, there is currently no direct evidence to link these changes to preembryo or embryo loss in women taking OCs. However, this hypothesized postfertilization effect seems to be so well accepted that in many medical articles and textbooks it has been explicitly listed as the third mechanism of OCs (after suppressing ovulation and prefertilization effects).1,10,17,18 For example, the Food and Drug Administration–approved product information for OCs in the Physicians’ Desk Reference states, Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus, which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus, and changes in the endometrium, which reduce the likelihood of implantation.11" From HERE
I'm sure I've saved some articles or can find some. Most of the places that I learn about this is in some kind of biology or science where we have to know how things work. The paper trail may have long thus escaped. Lol.
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 4/12/2008 8:24:07 PM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 8:56:54 PM
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called2valor
Posts: 73
Joined: 3/13/2006
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: called2valor
Psalm 139
13 For it was You who created my inward parts;
You knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You,
because I have been remarkably and wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
and I know [this] very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You
when I was made in secret,
when I was formed in the depths of the earth.
==================
When David is writing here from inspiration of the Spirit, even before he was born he WAS a "me" and an "I" even before he was born and as he was forming.
"Me" and "I" is surely personhood.
So, when does personhood begin according to that passage?
When David was forming he was a person... so my question to you would be: when does a person begin to form?
_____________________________
I am the Mayan king Great Jaguar Platypus Bite-Bite!!! Fear me!!! *swims around menacingly*
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 9:26:41 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 936
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God knows and that is sufficient for me.
In Jeremiah's case, God says, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
So that establishes Jeremiah in all his personhood BEFORE he was formed in the womb and before he was born. God says so.
And the Apostle Paul says that "But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb. . ." So obviously, the person, Paul, was known by God before his physical birth.
And of us, He says "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world". That's WAAAAAAAAAAAY before it all.
So, I don't worry my pretty little head about things like this (like Scarlett O'Hara). I just believe God. Trust Him. He knows best and He knows all and He loves us! Amen.
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 9:43:50 PM
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called2valor
Posts: 73
Joined: 3/13/2006
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'd say a person begins to form when the person has a soul.
They begin to form immediately after conception... that is when formation begins... so that must be when they have a soul: at conception.
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I am the Mayan king Great Jaguar Platypus Bite-Bite!!! Fear me!!! *swims around menacingly*
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 9:46:14 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2343
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: called2valor
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'd say a person begins to form when the person has a soul.
They begin to form immediately after conception... that is when formation begins... so that must be when they have a soul: at conception.
And why is that? Does biology tell us when people get souls (in your opinion)?
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"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 9:46:48 PM
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called2valor
Posts: 73
Joined: 3/13/2006
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
God knows and that is sufficient for me.
In Jeremiah's case, God says, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
So that establishes Jeremiah in all his personhood BEFORE he was formed in the womb and before he was born. God says so.
And the Apostle Paul says that "But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb. . ." So obviously, the person, Paul, was known by God before his physical birth.
And of us, He says "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world". That's WAAAAAAAAAAAY before it all.
So, I don't worry my pretty little head about things like this (like Scarlett O'Hara). I just believe God. Trust Him. He knows best and He knows all and He loves us! Amen.
I avoided that Scripture so far, because it involves Foreknowledge, but, yes, you are correct... God knew all about us before we came into being ;)
Our personhood comes from God, not medical science.
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I am the Mayan king Great Jaguar Platypus Bite-Bite!!! Fear me!!! *swims around menacingly*
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 9:50:26 PM
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called2valor
Posts: 73
Joined: 3/13/2006
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: called2valor
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'd say a person begins to form when the person has a soul.
They begin to form immediately after conception... that is when formation begins... so that must be when they have a soul: at conception.
And why is that? Does biology tell us when people get souls (in your opinion)?
When Biology develops a Soul Detector or a test for souls, then it might be able to... until then, your use of the word soul is your personal subjective test for personhood ;)
You are trying to place biology as the determiner of things that aren't even in its realm... that would be like asking a biologist, who knows of the existence of a force called electricity (like they know life SOMEHOW exists) to come and rewire my house. The domain of Biology/Medicine can't even discuss personhood coherently... add in Psychiatry or Neuro-Biology and Neuro-Psychology and you still won't get an answer
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I am the Mayan king Great Jaguar Platypus Bite-Bite!!! Fear me!!! *swims around menacingly*
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RE: When does personhood begin? - 4/12/2008 10:38:56 PM
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Real_Solitude
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Joined: 5/9/2005
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Without venturing into discussions about the soul, I'll give my opinion.
First, we have to define what a person is. I'm sure that there are many varying opinions on what constitutes a person, but here are mine: to me, a person is not any of their consistent parts. That is, since molecules are constantly being exchanged, within and without a body, 'you' are not made of the same stuff that 'you' were made of a few months, or years ago. So if a person is not their parts, then, to me, they must be the pattern of those parts. To me a person is the dynamic pattern that is contained within their neural system. 'You' are the unique, but changing, collection of memories, beliefs, thoughts, etc... that reside in your brain.
In this vein, I believe that a person achieves personhood roughly four weeks after conception, when nervous system starts its development.
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"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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