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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/18/2008 8:05:10 PM
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cherokeehippie
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Another hting...where have I stated that I worship other gods????k Me thinks you are worshipping the god of being self apointed pharisee. It's bad enough that I came home after having to deal with a snooty wiccan acting like I was dirt and she was better than me..then having to deal with a drunk guy sitting next to me at a restaurant...that you have to do the same to me and my native sisters and brothers...that is JUDGING>>>assuming we are worshipping other gods, when we are also BORN AGAIN believers in JESUS...yyou are being the same as Custer and them.
< Message edited by cherokeehippie -- 4/18/2008 8:21:06 PM >
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[Deleted] - 4/18/2008 11:24:19 PM
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[Deleted] - 4/18/2008 11:28:46 PM
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/18/2008 11:49:29 PM
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Kath
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Are we even on topic anymore?
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/19/2008 12:34:24 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
The Native Americans original religon was very pagan. They had rituals honoring a God for just about every thing tangible and every emotion and spirit. Even though they keep some of their beliefs about each living thing being beautiful and wise in it's own way, they can still love Christ the same as you and me. Let them adjust in their own way, at their own pace. I'm sure it's a big change for them, it was a HUGE change for me when I converted out of my old belief. Just be patient (I'm not really sure just what your true emotions are, but I hope I don't offend you) and as long as they love Christ they can become, or are Christians.
 Jody
Really? Which tribe? All of us Native folks have different religious traditions but nearly ALL of them are monotheistic, worshipping 1 deity, 1 Creator. We honor other created beings and the different parts of creation, thanking them for their faithfullness to the Creator in doing what He created them for so that life is made possible for all of His creatures, but we do not worship them. They are not gods, they are His creations. Whuch tradition did you come from and why do you feel it was demonic?
Personally I am weary of people who have not grown up around Natives, who have not grown up in Native cultures(and yes, that's plural) and have no real, long-term, hands-on knowledge of Native traditions and religious beliefs condemning us and our traditions. That's like Muslims in the Middle East who have never been here, never even known an American, condemning us as evil infidels. When I get into face-to-face conversations with folks who do this, and corner them on where they came by their information, their response is almost always "It's always what I've heard" or "It's what I read(in some book written by somebody who also didn't get their information first-hand)".
I am familiar with my own traditions, Lakota, Paiute, Shoshone, Muscogee, Mohawk, Ojibwe, Malliseet, Mohican, Dine' and Nez Perce traditions, and there's nothing of withcraft or demon worship in any of them. I have some questions about some aspects of the Dine' traditions, but that's to be addressed with my Dine' brothers and sistes and is not open for discussion here with outsiders- as a matter of respect- but I can say with all confidence that all of the rest of them are purely monotheistic, worshipping the Creator of the Universe and Him only. The practices of each are premised upon seeking to walk humbly with the Creator in the traditions He gave their ancestors when He made them people. Each person is responsible for their own relationship with the Almighty, and that could be why we had no church buildings- we lived in the church He made with His own hands and sought Him out in our surroundings. Creation is His first testament to Himself and the lessons He places in each and every aspect of it all point to Him.
Where there is conflict with the Gospel, it is the job of the Holy Spirit- not the missions board- to lead the people and determine what can be redeemed and what must be cast off. Most people are culturally biased and will judge what they think is acceptable to God based upon their own cultural values/practices. Paul did not tell the Greeks they had to become Jews to be acceptable to God or be bonfide believers and he fought vigorously against the Jews who said that the only way to be a true Christian was to become culturally Jewish. If that had been true, we'd all be doing church as Jews. I do not have to cast off my culture and become culturally white to be a believer or to be considered redeemed by Christ- I need to let the Spirit guide me as to where my culture needs to be brought into compliance with the Gospel. Same with anyone else.
In most Native traditions withcraft and calling up evil spirits is punishable by death. Once upon a time among the Cherokee, lying was also a capital crime, as was rape, adultery, murder, and incest. Since we are subject to federal law nowdays, crimes committed on Indian lands are prosecuted by the Feds, and those convicted got to Federal prisons. However, the Feds don't consider witchcraft to be a crime, but we still do and... well, let's just leave that at that.
and Tall_One, by covenant, I mean God's personal covenant given to a people group in the culture He designed for them, not The Covenant. Your people have your cultures, we have ours, other folks have theirs. Each culture has its own definition or viewpoint of interaction with the rest of the universe. There are ceremonies, styles of music and artistic expression, stories and parables, ways of doing things that all have something of Him in them and are reminders of His relationship with that people. Sure, there's not one people group that hasn't gotten off track, and sometimes waaaay off, but that doesn't mean that the people and culture are unredeemable in Christ or that receiving Christ is going to wipe out that sin-stained culture and replace it with another. If God had wanted me to be white or black or anything other than what He made me to be, then I wouldn't be Cherokee. If He had wanted you to be anything other than what you are, that's what you'd be. My dad's family are Scottish and very exuberantly take pride in their traditional culture even after 200 yrs here in America. And part of that culture is expressed when they go to church.
So you could say that the covenants He made with the peoples of the earth are meant as a roadmap to The Covenant. Again, this is an area where none of us has the right to trespass between God and others. Have questions? By all means ask, but be prepared to listen as well. Have trouble accepting or find yourself unable to understand? Try to find common ground upon which to build understanding and then see if it meets the standards established by the Lord and the Apostles.
As far as lighting candles, that's not just a Catholic thing, I know conservative Protestants who have home altars and light candles when they pray as an offering in worship.
Native folks use eagle and hawk feathers because these birds are sacred to us- no bird flies as high as the eagle or can see as far, nor has wings as strong. The eagle and the hawk represent spiritual strength, and illumination or discernment- the ablity to see things clearly in the light of truth and to see beyond the here and now to what may lay ahead. We believe that the eagle carries our prayer up to the Creator on his wings. The gift of a feather is a gift of honor, and they are not just handed out- you have to earn them. The feather is used in prayer as a sacred item, a reminder of all that is holy and a symbol of our prayers. When around feathers, we are reminded that we are in the Presence of the Sacred at all times and are to conduct ourselves accordingly. Do we worship eagle or hawk feathers? No, but we worship Who they represent to us.
I did not say there was no evil-doing over here before 1492, but I will say what was brought over here has more than compounded what was here before. The white man did not come in the Spirit of Christ, but in the spirit of greed and arrogance. There was never any view of us as being equals or that we had any right or primacy of rights over the land- we were heathens without souls to be subjugated or exterminated because we were in the way of "christian progress" as George Washington put it.
The reason many Natives have rejected the church(not Jesus, just the church) is because the Church was complicit in the denigration, enslavement, abuse, exploitation, and extermination policies of the colonial and later the American government. The boarding schools where Native children were sent to "kill the Indian to save the man" were run by churches and the children, already traumatized by being taken at gun point from their families and separated from their siblings, were subjected to horrendous physical, emotional, verbal, and sexual abuses by the missionaries who staffed these schools. Can you imagine being beaten for speaking your Native language and beaten everday until you learned to speak English? I know elders who bear the scars from the beatings, and I've heard their stories- most of which would make a strong man shudder. They were told that God made a mistake in making them Indian but by God, the school were going to be make them into whites if it killed them, and 25% of the time, it did. This is what "christian" means to a lot of Natives, and why reservations are such hard ground for non-Indian pastors and missionaries, why we so often say "Thanks but no thanks, we've already had enough."
However, come as servant-brothers to live among us and face life with us, and you may get somewhere. Show us respect, submit to our elders- who are the authority figures, the gate-keepers- and learn our ways so you can find that common ground to relate to us, and your words will be considered. Want to teach Christ, then live Him before us. Drop the "great white father" stuff and be the white brother who comes with love and compassion and integrity for that was what God has commanded from the beginning and what should have been all along.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/19/2008 12:52:02 AM
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GroupW
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PaleHawkWoman-
I enjoyed that post. It reminded me of a conversation my wife had yesterday regarding inner city missions. The biggest complaints by those who minister there in dealing with volunteers:
1) Condescending attitudes
2) An unwillingness to learn the inner city culture.
3) A get-in-and-get-out mentality. Volunteers typically would like to get in, do their good deed, and go home without having to make a long term commitment to build relationships there.
It's a different culture, different context, but I see the similarity between your post and my wife's conversation.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/19/2008 1:26:03 AM
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cherokeehippie
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'AHO" to PaleHawk's words!!! I agree with her words...she is more in proper place to speak than me...since I'm still learning...since I did not grow up in the culture...
Now for a crazy mixed up cherokee hippie's view of things...and if sounds offensive in certain ways...forgive me...I'm curious..Palehawk(You can privately messaged me if you need to...) about what I'll say here..if I need to be corrected about certain things, etc.. ;)
By the way I wrote this before seeing Palehawk's words...
I thought this thread is about Native christians??? Not nonchristian natives. Yes, Christ is above culture, but there is no way out of any kind of culture....Just look...there is southern christian culture, country bumpkin christianity..(I'm in a small Ozark town where christian music has a country, bluegrass flavor)...In Israel, it's very Israeli and Jewish...as well as the Arabic christianity..with middle eastern music...I also have a cd with really awesome East Indian christian music...no not anglo hymns in India language...it's actual christian music with culturally East Indian music with the sitar... If these cultures can worship Jesus in their cultural ways, then why can't Native Americans?? So....it's a danger to worship JEsus with Native drum music??? Or to dance to Him with Eagle feathers?? So Natives have to become a culturally mainstream anglo white to be pleasing to Him?? or become German mennonites with the little caps on the women's heads??? Personally, I find the western way of looking at things,,..offensive...the western scientific greek rational mindset...(which has pagan origins, by the way)...I have a book by two christian brothers on the demonic origins of western science, humanism, etc. For example...on another forum...there is those christians who deny that 'sleep paralyses" has anything to do with demons....they just want to think that it is pure physical....they are separating the physical from the emotional and spiritual....To me...it's all connected. I know what I saw when I was attacked by demons in my sleep one time and I heard the LORD's voice telling the demons to leave me alone, and then waking up and seeing a beautiful gold cloud in the corner of my room...I knew it was the LORD coming to my rescue...Some christians...just want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and stay in their little insulated churchy worlds, playing boring volleyball and focusing on meaningless ****, and stick their heads in teh sand...oblivious to the satanic system and not wanting to believe that elements of our own government is satanic and luciferians and wanting to kill us off with chemtrails and poisoned chinese imports and selling our businesses out to china, raising the gas prices, etc...they're doing this to get us bound as slaves, ...and then, there will be a day when they will ship us to concentration camps right here in the states!!! That's right!! There are concentration camps prepared for us here in the good ole USA....I just talked with a new friend...She's Cherokee/Chicasaw on her mom's side, and nazi German on her dad's side! yes, you heard me right....Her dad's folks were nazi's who came over here right after WW II..(Ever heard of Operation Paperclip??? Google it!! ).(she won't have anything to do with her dad and his people by the way! She prefers her stepdad over her dad)....She told me that a relative on her dad's side is a secret agent and that there is a secret nazi base in Arizona. She also mentioned a concentration camp in AZ where weird e xperiements is done on people...most christians are blind to these things and think 'all is well' or rather stay in a delusional world of entertainment.
If I study about Stonecoat, the Tlanuwa,(a giant bird that terrorized Cherokee a long time ago..picking up babies and dogs), the Uktena, (a giant snake creature taht also terrorized Cherokee...)...it's not to worship them, but to understand that things aren't as they seem like the mainstream scientists would like us to believe...I believe these creatures really existed...and yes, it is connected to the nephilim, fallen angels going into women, etc..) ..I believe this is an insight of what end times is going to be...it's going to happen again...There is genetic manipulation going on (the so called ufo abductions may very well be a modern form of Genesis 6:4..and also the government using us as guinea pigs in genetic manipulation...Nazi Germans, by the way, played a part in our space program, along with OTO luciferians and freemasons)
When I first came to the Ozarks...I camped at a campsite on the White River and another creek...I didn't realized it but that area had 'history"....I had weird dreams...I dreamed of a giant snake hovering over me and it freaked me out big time!! I woke up feeling an extreme evil...(this was when my interest in my native ancestry was on the backburner and I didn't know about the Uktena, or that other tribes have stories of this thing, too.)...I immediately, the next morning moved away from that area and camped some miles away at more pleasant place.
I realize now that what I had dreamed of was an 'uktena'...yes, it's demonic...it could be a saraph..a serpentine creature..a type of fallen angel...I believe that the angels bound at the Euphrates in Iraq..that's mention in Revelations 9:14 could be these giant creatures....I had gotten the sense that the Uktena at that campground was bound there for some reason and was scaring me off it's turf...By the way...that area had a history of bad stuff happening there...a Civil War battle, tornados, rumors of satanic worship, and a 'haunted abandoned school down the river'...as well as a brothel up on a certain hill. There had also been a Native campstite there, and lots of arrowheads found...and when a bridge was built, they disturbed some burials...However, it was a long time ago...when the village was there...in the early 1800's i find it interesting that the Shawnee avoided living on that creek..even though it is an important strategic site...over looks the river, with creek, etc...I wonder if it becamed evil at a certain time...and the tribes then avoided the area...and the Shawnee knew to avoid living there...
I believe that the creaturs mentioned in Revelations..such as the locusts with womens hair, etc, are not John's looking at modern technology, but are actual demonic creatures that is going to break loose on earth and terrorize people...those with the mark of the beast...
Anway, I'm getting off topic...I would say there is much more 'paganism' in the mainstream white culture...with many being Freemasons...very much cultic. Especially many southern White christians , especially in Arkansas, being Freemasons as well as 'going to church'.
< Message edited by cherokeehippie -- 4/19/2008 1:40:16 AM >
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[Deleted] - 4/19/2008 2:35:55 AM
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[Deleted] - 4/19/2008 2:45:21 AM
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/3/2008 10:19:13 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 2316
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tall_One
Apaches were really cruel not only to people, even their own people, but they ate their animals, as well. Eating horses and dogs is just sick.
How are horses and dogs any different then cows and sheep? Both kept as pets, both quite useful while alive, both quite tasty on the plate.
Give me a break. 
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/3/2008 11:01:28 PM
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GroupW
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I remember my first few days living as a student in Austria and being asked by a street food vendor if I wanted my "leberkaese" made from horse or pork.
I picked pork the first time, but the horse wasn't bad.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/4/2008 12:00:41 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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If they believe the only way to heaven is through Faith in Jesus Christ then they are Christians, otherwise they are not.... Doesn't matter how much of Christianity they adopt it doesn't make the Christian. Believing we are part of earth and worshiping spirits pretty much makes you not a Christian to me. The Lord said I am the truth and the Light no man comes to the Father but by Me. That should settle it.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/4/2008 3:07:15 AM
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tracydolls
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From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
Because sometimes when I think about what they believe, and what new agers believe, there seems to be alot of similarity. Anyone know more about them?
There are a lot of similarites with heathens/pagans/new agers. Are Native Americas guilty of it, YES, we all are. Africans still practice animnistic mixed with Christianity. Here in America we mix pagan ie:Christmas Tree with Christ Birthday which is set on the sun god mithias birthdate. Dec. 25 with gift giving. A Now Christian holiday.
EVERYONE is guilty of it, I don't believe the Natives have a"special" hold on it. You can look at history and see how the Holy Roman Church mixed with the pagans they found in Europe. Celts, Visgoths, Germanics, Gauls, Barbarians. That has been transported here. Once these same people sacked Rome and took over the Church. Became the Church of England, etc.
There is nothing new under the sun. And we know from Daniel , there will be "mixing" going on.
It's wrong. period. Jesus Christ is the only answer.
Native Americans will be in Heaven.. All kindreds, nations and tongues......
quote:
there was one story of african people coming nad the cherokee doing battle with the african people, etc .
That has already been proven: that Africans were here. look at the Mayan, Incas, Aztecs temples/pyramids. Artwork , Sculptures-African.
DNA proves we come from Africa. (Stephen Oppenheimer)
Christ said many will come in His Name, not all will be from Him!
Sometimes people look at Christians and get turned off because of how Christians can act. hyprocrisy in the Name of the Lord.
It's especially high here in US.
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/5/2008 12:36:57 AM
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cherokeehippie
Posts: 81
Joined: 4/19/2007
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I have an interesting story! On one side of my family...a distant cousin tested his patriarchal dna...thinking that it would lead to Nathaniel Basse..a English sea captain of french background...well, it turns out that the male bass line dna is not that of european..but of San "Bushman" dna of south africa and that it came in the line 1000 yrs ago!! That blew me away! I had always wondered and felt that I had african ancestry somewhere in my line...It is a mystery of how the San DNA came in the line...I have Nansemond Native blood on the Bass line...and felt that maybe the African dna came in on the Native side...that maybe the Nansemonds had contact with African people 1000 yrs ago! (oh yeah..the Nansemonds were a small Native Am. tribe on the coast of VIrginia)
I make pine needle baskets...coiled...the history of pine basket making is in dispute concerning the background...it is also very similar to the Gullah sweetgrass basket technique...some say hte Native Am.s always did it...another says a southern white woman(can't think of her name) started it...but another theory has that african slaves...who were able to run away from slave masters...went to live with the Creeks and Seminole nations...and taught the techinique to the tribes...anyway...who knows! Maybe African people taught Natives 1000 yrs ago!! 
< Message edited by cherokeehippie -- 5/5/2008 12:43:52 AM >
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/5/2008 4:30:06 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
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From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
have an interesting story! On one side of my family...a distant cousin tested his patriarchal dna...thinking that it would lead to Nathaniel Basse..a English sea captain of french background...well, it turns out that the male bass line dna is not that of european..but of San "Bushman" dna of south africa and that it came in the line 1000 yrs ago!! That blew me away! I had always wondered and felt that I had african ancestry somewhere in my line...It is a mystery of how the San DNA came in the line...I have Nansemond Native blood on the Bass line...and felt that maybe the African dna came in on the Native side...that maybe the Nansemonds had contact with African people 1000 yrs ago! (oh yeah..the Nansemonds were a small Native Am. tribe on the coast of VIrginia)
there have been alot of DNA stories, whites testing black, etc.
I had several family members take test,
I am French-canadian, Choctaw, nigerian Ibo, portuguese, and western european(british)
in america- a black woman.
I think they learned together. Natives, Africans, too many similarites
but look at this what if the earth was all together at one time?
1Ch 1:19 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.
so once seperated, traditions still go along with you, ie basket making, 
_____________________________
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/8/2008 12:46:59 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Why is it that people think the Mayans, Aztec, Inca, Anasazi, and Mound Builders got their building and other skills from elsewhere? There is no archeological evidence that Africans colonized over here, and if snyone brings up the Olmecs, the "stone heads" that some point to as being african in features are not reflected in the pottery and glyphs found at Olmec sites, artifacts which equal and even predate the stone heads. It is known that the Olmecs shaved their heads and filed their teeth down to points; the Mayan elite engaged in similar dental alteration to emulate the jaguar(the jaguar figures heavily in Mayan theology and culture as a god and messenger of the gods, not to mention a formidable and powerful predator). It is also known that the Aztecs got their religious practice largely from the Olmecs-particularly human sacrifice and ritualistic canibalism. Chichenitza was originally an Olmec city and the human-figure altars across which victims were stretched while their hearts were cut out of their chests and upon which the hearts were laid were of Olmec origin.
Up in the Northeast US and eastern Canada, there are "celtic" designs carved into stones which I recognize as Native wind and water patterns. Such swirling patterns are found elsewhere, like Tibet, and no one says those were done by the Celts.
Basket weaving, and pine needle baskets are common all over Turtle Island(which is the original name for what you folks call North America and Mexico). My ex's people are Paiute and pine needle baskets are an ancient art, with beads, shells, and feathers often woven into the basket. It did not come over here from somewhere else, but since pine trees are found on every continebt it stands to reason that people on each continent found ways to use pine needles, as well as grass and other materials to make baskets with.
People have always used what they find around them to make things they need or things for artistic expression. Since we are all human beings, you have to figure that some things are going to resemble something somewhere else despite the fact that it's all the way on the other side of the planet.
Back to the cultural side of expressing one's faith, none of us has the right to judge whether or not someone else's faith and practice of it within their own culture is right or not if we have no knowledge of another's culture to begin with. I'm not white, and altho I do have excellent knowledge of several white cultures, it's still not my job to police them and tell them what they can and cannot do. I can point out something I might be uneasy with or disagree with and ask for Scriptural clarification of it, and engage in thoughtful discussion and debate, thus establishing a forum for finding common ground. Where there is a blatant error, the Scriptural example is still to find out why the error is being committed, what understanding of God the people have, and to gently model and educate based upon knowledge of the people's culture and experiences.
As I said before, it is the Holy Spirit's job to lead the people in a given culture towards the relationship God has designed for them to have with Him as He redeems them and their culture. We're supposed to facilitate this, not go on the offensive and interfere with God's plans by insulting and alienating others. As I recall, the Almighty has never needed our advice as to how He goes about His buisiness; the fact that He refers to us as His "sheep" ougt to clue us in as to how stupid and short-sighted we human beings tend to be, and history is full of all the tragedies and atrocities resulting from people trying to "help" God hurry up and get things done to our satisfaction and our ignorance about both God and out fellow man has usually made it worse.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/8/2008 7:24:15 AM
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DaveW
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I apologise ahead of time for the generality of this post, but I believe it has application to the question of Native congregations and worship styles.
PHW, you are fighting an uphill battle here. The Eurocentric church (small c) has always been so nitpicky on details that it seems at times everyone wants some formula that will prove that I and my congregation will go to heaven and another congregation down the street, same denomination and beliefs, all go to hell.
We say this in THIS way, and do that in THAT way and they don't. We are right/saved/holy and everyone else is wrong/lost/evil.
*What formula were you baptized with? What name? Forward or backward? Immersed or sprinkeled?
*Do you believe in a pretrib ,midtrim, posttrib or no rapture?
*Do you use "debts" or "trespasses" in the Lord's Prayer?
*What kind of music?
The list can get really long.
Start trying to add cultural differences into the mix and you are in real trouble. Why do you think the evangelists of the 19th and 20th centuries were so charged with cultural imperialism? You can't be saved unless you sing western hymns accompanied by only an organ or piano. Look at the big stink that happened when pop/rock started creeping into christian music. And rock is in the same western musical framework as the classically influenced hymns. If you go to another musical framework (I understand the arabic scale is 14 notes to the octave rather than our 12) your music HAS TO BE DEMONIC!
Sorry for the rant. I have been fighting these attitudes all my life.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/9/2008 1:45:51 PM
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jmjphe
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THis is an interesting post. First it's awsome there are native american communities turning to Christ. Second i think the "uhh wait what?" comes in as a difference in social habits and traditions. I actually attended a Christian church here in Washington state that was largley Korean based. The sermons were exceelent, we had worship music, bible study etc. But several mannerisms were different from what i was used to growing up white. I was introduced to kim-chee (which is an awsome food) for example. One thing that was cool is that different members sort of rotated who would bring in foods/dishes for lunch which is what they did every sunday. There was a strong sense of pride in bringing in a good cooked dish as opposed to heading to a grocery store and picking up some deli chicken. Not a strong example but one none the less and something i wasnt used to seeing.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/9/2008 1:54:54 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1433
Joined: 11/16/2007
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PHW and DaveW - really enjoyed those last posts.
BT
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RE: Native American Christians? - 5/9/2008 1:57:47 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
Why is it that people think the Mayans, Aztec, Inca, Anasazi, and Mound Builders got their building and other skills from elsewhere? There is no archeological evidence that Africans colonized over here, and if snyone brings up the Olmecs, the "stone heads" that some point to as being african in features are not reflected in the pottery and glyphs found at Olmec sites, artifacts which equal and even predate the stone heads .
No, but DNA http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/stephen-oppenheimer.html
says that we all started in AFrica. and like Solomon said" Nothing new under Sun," so therefore No one here invented ie Basket weaving, pottery , etc. they learned from their African mothers.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/9/2008 2:20:22 PM >
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 7/2/2008 9:40:28 AM
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TJ413
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Joined: 8/31/2005
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I have not been on this site for a long time, but found this thread yesterday while playing 'catch up'. As a Native American who loves Christ and walks the ways of my people complete in Him, this is my reply to the things said here. My people were given awesome and beautiful ways to follow as their 'old covenant', just as the Sons of Abraham were given. We also awaited the completion of our faith and those of us who have good spirits are walking in the completeness of understanding the old ways as foreshadowing of Him, and it is with joy we celebrate our old ways complete in Him.
I often wonder what would have happened if Jesus had come to the Europeans. Had He bled and died on their soil, among their customs and then sent them out to tell His story. As his new found believers headed south into Israel to spread the good word. I wonder if they would have observed the 'rituals' and 'ceremonies' that Abrahams race practiced. I wonder as they saw beautiful lambs slain and butchered into pieces on their altars, they would perhaps have proclaimed these practices as savage, too savage to even consider being brought to the People of Israel from Creator. I wonder if they would have seen the people praying as the lambs were brought into the temple and said among themselves, surely these people worship the lambs, CLEARLY they are an animistic people, worshipping multiple gods, even the lambs!
I wonder if they saw once a year these clearly pagan people smearing ,of all things ,blood upon their door post. They would say among themselves, how barbaric can these people be? Imagine the emotional damage done to the little children who try to sleep in houses painted in blood of all things? Imagine part of this yearly ritual being to eat herbs so bitter that it is disgusting and they make the children partake as well? And, oh my Lord, they even take a knife to their innocent little boys within days of their birth, and they call it a practice from God????? What sort of false gods would proclaim the cutting of babies as Holy????
When they observed that the highest group of Priests refused to cut their hair , saying that this was a directive from the Most High, they would mutter, nonsense. Hair does not make a priest, no Real God would add such a silly practice to the priesthood, only a false god would say such things.
Surely they would have reasoned among themselves that these pagan and brutal practices were never never given to the people by the True and Living God. Surely they would have pondered how to handle these wild people, and to make them more civilized so that they could receive the good word that they brought to them. They would have said to the people, stop these ridiculous and cruel practices. We must get them ready to receive the word , they would have reasoned to themselves.
Stop cutting your little boys, stop killing these beautiful creatures called lambs and for gods sake stop smearing blood all over your doorways. For those who wont stop traumatizing the children long enough for us to teach them the real Word we have brought , we have a plan. We will put your children in a safe place until we teach you the good way. We will take your babies at birth so that you can not butcher your boys in your pagan rituals. We will teach them safety and no pain and we will teach them the right way. We will cut the hair of your priests and show the people how nice their appearance can be nicely shaved. We will mandate that the lambs be made safe and not be allowed to be butchered upon those horrible alters to this god that you worship , and we know he is not the real god because you call him a different name , he is a false god.
Imagine the people losing all those traditions, imagine them trying to accept this new idea of Jesus, without all the beautiful foreshadowing ceremonies that the people had always known. Imagine them trying to accept Him as THE LAMB , when they have been told that the killing of their lambs was evil and wrong. Imagine them trying to accept that He bought their lives with His Blood, when they are being told that the blood on their doorways was an evil practice, never brought to them by God. Imagine them trying to understand that the Son of God brought a new blood covenant to replace the flesh /blood covenant they had practiced with their sons for generations in preperation of the One Blood Convenant of Jesus.
I imagine great confusion, I imagine that they would not understand. I imgaine that they would either refuse the good news, or accept it to survive but not really enter into it because it wouldn't make sense. I imagine that in the times their elders talked secretly among themselves they would have pondered, " it was bad to kill a lamb, but these people killed a MAN , and think that it was a kinder and gentler sacrifice?" I imagine that among those elder talks, they would secretly say. " we ate bitter herbs once a year to remember our time of slavery and the bitterness it brought, but they drink blood and eat flesh much more than once a year and they think that is less barbaric" I imagine great confusion on the part of the original people of Israel, don't you?
I imagine if the Europeans instead had been able to enter into the ceremonies and rituals with an open heart to the Holy Spirit, that they could have said to the people, "surely the Great One gave you these beautiful ceremonies. See? The lambs, what a foreshadowing of our Lord. Now when you sacrifice those lambs you can do it in Holy remembrance of the One who became the Lamb for all. Now when you observe this most holy ritual of cutting the flesh of your baby boys, you can do it with such appreciation for the One who was cut in his side to cut a convenant for all time for you. Now when you eat the bitter herbs you can do it with thanksgiving of the One who prepares a place where you will never eat or experience bitterness again. "
And then I imagine if those who came to Turtle Island had also come with open hearts, with spirits listening to the Holy Spirit had joined in my peoples rituals with an eye for finding truth and beauty instead of judgement. Had they seen our ceremonies and embraced them and shown my people how they foreshadowed this God they were trying to give us. If they had gazed upon the red sashes of the sundancer and said, "oh my goodness, what are the odds that they would perfectly be placed where Christ's Blood was spilled from his body, surely the Creator God gave you this ceremony" If they had seen a ceremony where a dog was slain and eaten for healing of a person, if they had said, " we know this to be the foreshadowing of The Dog who was slain to heal all people, surely this was given to you by the Creator, it is so like the taking of the Bread to us" If they had seen the rocks being heated for a inipi ceremony and said. " we love that the rocks are part of your worship ceremony, they are such a beautiful picture of The Rock who also , when allowed to heat your heart, brings to the front your weaknesses and then helps you to heal and be strong, surely these practices were brought to you from your Great Spirit , who we call a different name but it surely is the same God"
I imagine how different the lives of my people would have been. How easily and completely they could have accepted this new covenant , how much sense it would have made to them, to complete the circle of their beliefs. But just like if Jesus had come to Europeans and they in turn would have entered Israel with a critical eye, believing they had the only , the one truth........... the Europeans came to my world and did not stop long enough to truly allow their God to show them the beautiful ways He had prepared for my people.
These are the things I imagine as I hear that my people worshipped false and multiple gods, that their ways were never from the One True God. I imagine that Creator thinks on these things as well and weeps for a people who knew nothing other than Love, Respect and Awe for the One they knew Created them.
In Him , complete and whole,
Tina
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