RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (Full Version)

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benelchi -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/20/2008 10:18:13 AM)

quote:

quote: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64
And how is what the teacher actually did not "abusing his position in a federally funded facility wherein separation of church and state applies?"


The answer is right in the quotation at the start of your post. He did not proselytize either for or against religion.



Would the reverse also be true i.e. You believe that someone could explain the Gospel message and all of the benefits of believing it, the good impact it has had in history; all done with as much passion for the topic as this teacher displayed and as long as no one is asked to make a decision for Christ it would be OK?



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/20/2008 10:39:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
Would the reverse also be true i.e. You believe that someone could explain the Gospel message and all of the benefits of believing it

No, this would be proselytizing.

quote:

the good impact it has had in history

Absolutely, as long as it is factual and not taught in such a way as to leave the impression that the church's history is all positive.

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all done with as much passion for the topic as this teacher displayed and as long as no one is asked to make a decision for Christ it would be OK?

Passion is fine. History is fine. Explaining the gospel (other than as a hitorical reference) and its benefits is not fine-- nor is getting on a soapbox and drawing insubstantiable conclusions about geographics and demographics.



benelchi -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/20/2008 11:01:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
Would the reverse also be true i.e. You believe that someone could explain the Gospel message and all of the benefits of believing it

No, this would be proselytizing.


It's not that simple. This teach went far beyond the facts, and explained all of the reasons why someone shouldn't believe; he stopped just short of asking them not to believe. If this wasn't proselytizing, then neither is someone who explains what the Gospel has meant to them but never asks a student to convert. One cannot be OK, and the other be wrong.

quote:


quote:

the good impact it has had in history

Absolutely, as long as it is factual and not taught in such a way as to leave the impression that the church's history is all positive.


However, this teacher left the impression that the church's history was all negative. If one cannot teach in a way that leaves the impression that the churches history is all positive (and I am not advocating that they do); why is it ok for a teacher to do the opposite?

quote:


quote:

all done with as much passion for the topic as this teacher displayed and as long as no one is asked to make a decision for Christ it would be OK?

Passion is fine. History is fine. Explaining the gospel (other than as a hitorical reference) and its benefits is not fine-- nor is getting on a soapbox and drawing insubstantiable conclusions about geographics and demographics.


I would have to say that this teacher clearly got "on a soapbox and drew unsubstantiated conclusions about demographics.", and I would have to disagree that "The man had every right to say what he said."



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/20/2008 11:20:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
This teach went far beyond the facts, and explained all of the reasons why someone shouldn't believe;

He didn't say that they should not believe. He was challenging those who already believe to remove their "Jesus glasses" and see that Christianity could have the charge leveled against it that it is not a religion of peace, just like some Christians tend to charge against Islam.

quote:

he stopped just short of asking them not to believe.

Exactly. And do you think that he should be treated as if he did not stop short of asking them to not believe?

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If this wasn't proselytizing, then neither is someone who explains what the Gospel has meant to them but never asks a student to convert.

You'll have to explain this one . . .

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However, this teacher left the impression that the church's history was all negative.

No, from what I can tell from the article, church history was not even addressed.

quote:

I would have to say that this teacher clearly got "on a soapbox and drew unsubstantiated conclusions about demographics.", and I would have to disagree that "The man had every right to say what he said."

Why? Does freedom of speech not apply to teachers? It does.
But, I still support the school taking action to censure this teacher for what he said. But he should not be charged in court for civil liberty violation.



Annie64 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/21/2008 3:47:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:

I would have to say that this teacher clearly got "on a soapbox and drew unsubstantiated conclusions about demographics.", and I would have to disagree that "The man had every right to say what he said."

Why? Does freedom of speech not apply to teachers? It does.
But, I still support the school taking action to censure this teacher for what he said. But he should not be charged in court for civil liberty violation.


According to you, he has the right to harangue against Christians and do his utmost to dissuade kids from believing as long as he doesn't actually come right out and ask that they not believe, but he has no right to present the Gospel as long as he doesn't ask the kids to convert. It seems to me that when it comes to the first amendment, you have a double standard.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/21/2008 10:42:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64
According to you, he has the right to harangue against Christians and do his utmost to dissuade kids from believing as long as he doesn't actually come right out and ask that they not believe, but he has no right to present the Gospel as long as he doesn't ask the kids to convert. It seems to me that when it comes to the first amendment, you have a double standard.

Pay close attention here:
He has the right to say what he said, therefore he should not have legal charges brought against him-- especially not on the grounds of the same amendment that grants him this right.

However, his conduct as a teacher was reprehensible, and the school definitely needs to muzzle him.
If I were his supervisor, I would tell him, "This time it's a warning on record that next time it'll be suspension without pay and the possibility that you will end up looking for a new job without my recommendation."



2shaye -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/21/2008 12:52:09 PM)

What if the school chooses to do nothing? (As in this case). What, then, can be done? Anything?



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/21/2008 3:01:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2shaye
What if the school chooses to do nothing? (As in this case). What, then, can be done? Anything?

I don't know if the school in question has actually done nothing.
But to answer your question, parents should then pressure the school's administrators to do their job and address the situation.



2shaye -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/21/2008 4:19:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2shaye
What if the school chooses to do nothing? (As in this case). What, then, can be done? Anything?

I don't know if the school in question has actually done nothing.
But to answer your question, parents should then pressure the school's administrators to do their job and address the situation.

I do. They've done nothing. This is a very troubled district with many problems coming from the top and trickling down.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/22/2008 7:29:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2shaye
I do. They've done nothing. This is a very troubled district with many problems coming from the top and trickling down.

Well, then that takes us to my last point:
Parents should then pressure the school's administrators to do their job and address the situation.



lightshineon -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/22/2008 7:53:19 PM)

I am sorry that is offensive, the Jesus Glassess comment. What do you mean by that?
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
This teach went far beyond the facts, and explained all of the reasons why someone shouldn't believe;

He didn't say that they should not believe. He was challenging those who already believe to remove their "Jesus glasses" and see that Christianity could have the charge leveled against it that it is not a religion of peace, just like some Christians tend to charge against Islam.

quote:

he stopped just short of asking them not to believe.

Exactly. And do you think that he should be treated as if he did not stop short of asking them to not believe?

quote:

If this wasn't proselytizing, then neither is someone who explains what the Gospel has meant to them but never asks a student to convert.

You'll have to explain this one . . .

quote:

However, this teacher left the impression that the church's history was all negative.

No, from what I can tell from the article, church history was not even addressed.

quote:

I would have to say that this teacher clearly got "on a soapbox and drew unsubstantiated conclusions about demographics.", and I would have to disagree that "The man had every right to say what he said."

Why? Does freedom of speech not apply to teachers? It does.
But, I still support the school taking action to censure this teacher for what he said. But he should not be charged in court for civil liberty violation.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/22/2008 8:53:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I am sorry that is offensive, the Jesus Glassess comment. What do you mean by that?

"Jesus glasses" was his wording, not mine. That is why I used quote marks.
I take it that he meant that he was challenging his students to set aside their fundemental Christian assumptions while hearing him out. Removing one's "glasses" is probably a euphemism for setting aside what you look at the world through, and considering something else for a moment.



lightshineon -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/22/2008 9:05:38 PM)

sorry, misunderstood.
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I am sorry that is offensive, the Jesus Glassess comment. What do you mean by that?

"Jesus glasses" was his wording, not mine. That is why I used quote marks.
I take it that he meant that he was challenging his students to set aside their fundemental Christian assumptions while hearing him out. Removing one's "glasses" is probably a euphemism for setting aside what you look at the world through, and considering something else for a moment.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/23/2008 11:01:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon
sorry, misunderstood.

No worries. Glad to clarify.



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/23/2008 11:08:36 AM)

The simple fact is, had the teacher made comments like these about a minority racial group, or in reference to the views of someone of a particular sexual orientation, or even probably of Jews, he would have been removed immediately, and we wouldn't have heard a peep out of those now defending him. But as Christians are a group that can be safely disparaged, the same folks run to his defense.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/23/2008 6:35:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
The simple fact is, had the teacher made comments like these about a minority racial group

You mean linking a minority group to demographic and geographic statistics in order to make them look bad? . . . happens all the time. For instance it can be "proved" that the mere presence of African Americans devaluates real estate. It's a "fact" that has been repeated like a mantra for as long as I can remember.

quote:

or in reference to the views of someone of a particular sexual orientation,

Like gays? . . . happens all the time. Where were the lawsuits when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robinson blamed 9-11 on homosexuals?

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or even probably of Jews

Sure, for instance Mel Gibson's infamous rant happened not so long ago. Again, where were the lawsuits?

quote:

But as Christians are a group that can be safely disparaged, the same folks run to his defense.

ANY group in America can be "safely" disparaged as long as there is a thing called freedom of speech, and as long direct libel or slander to an individual doesn't occur. This happens on right wing radio and television everyday. But let a teacher open his mouth a little too wide, and-- wham! It's a lawsuit.



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/23/2008 6:44:23 PM)

quote:

You mean linking a minority group to demographic and geographic statistics in order to make them look bad? . . . happens all the time. For instance it can be "proved" that the mere presence of African Americans devaluates real estate. It's a "fact" that has been repeated like a mantra for as long as I can remember.


Really. Well then you should be able to show me one record in the last decade of a teacher who linked racial groups to crime statistics at the high school level who kept their job.

quote:

Like gays? . . . happens all the time. Where were the lawsuits when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robinson blamed 9-11 on homosexuals?


They aren’t high school teachers; one example where a public high school teacher did this and was allowed to.

quote:

Sure, for instance Mel Gibson's infamous rant happened not so long ago. Again, where were the lawsuits?


Again, would you allow Mel Gibson to say such thing in a a public high school classroom?

Why not if, as you say, he was just, “challenging those who already believe to remove their "Jewish glasses" and see that Judaism could have the charge leveled against it that it is not a religion of peace, just like some Jews tend to charge against Islam.”

quote:

ANY group in America can be "safely" disparaged as long as there is a thing called freedom of speech, and as long direct libel or slander to an individual doesn't occur. This happens on right wing radio and television everyday. But let a teacher open his mouth a little too wide, and-- wham! It's a lawsuit.


Not in a tax funded public classroom.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/23/2008 6:57:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Really. Well then you should be able to show me one record in the last decade of a teacher who linked racial groups to crime statistics at the high school level who kept their job.

Why should I seeing as how I never made this claim?

quote:

They aren’t high school teachers; one example where a public high school teacher did this and was allowed to.

So are you saying that high school teachers do not enjoy the same Constitutional right to freedom of speech as other Americans, and that they should be subject to lawsuits simply for the opinions that they express?

quote:

Again, would you allow Mel Gibson to say such thing in a a public high school classroom?

Here's the thing: do you think that school children of all ages didn't hear Gibson's and Falwell's opinions just because they weren't spoken in a classroom?

quote:

Not in a tax funded public classroom.

Well, I agree. This probably surprises you because I doubt that you are aware of what I said about this earlier in the thread.
It's still there if you really want to find out . . .



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/23/2008 11:21:56 PM)

quote:

Why should I seeing as how I never made this claim?


Well then your point is irrelevant to the case we are considering.

quote:

So are you saying that high school teachers do not enjoy the same Constitutional right to freedom of speech as other Americans, and that they should be subject to lawsuits simply for the opinions that they express?


They are tax funded employees; no employee can say whatever they want on the job, particularly when communicating is part of their job. Teachers can say lots of things on their own time that they cannot say in a classroom.

quote:

Here's the thing: do you think that school children of all ages didn't hear Gibson's and Falwell's opinions just because they weren't spoken in a classroom?


So what? They weren’t compelled to listen to them speak about such things by a person who was an authority over them and whose position was a product of tax funds. You do comprehend this difference don’t you?

quote:

Well, I agree. This probably surprises you because I doubt that you are aware of what I said about this earlier in the thread.


Then this agreement is at odds with the rest of your opinions in this post.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 9:47:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Then this agreement is at odds with the rest of your opinions in this post.

No, you are simply missing it. I'll break it down for you.
There are two different consequences that we are talking about here:
1. Getting fired
2. Getting dragged into court
I am for the teacher being disciplined and possibly fired by his superiors.
I am against the notion that he should be subject to a lawsuit on the grounds of violating the very same amendment that protects his freedom of speech.

Is this any clearer now?



mapachito13 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 10:11:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Then this agreement is at odds with the rest of your opinions in this post.

No, you are simply missing it. I'll break it down for you.
There are two different consequences that we are talking about here:
1. Getting fired
2. Getting dragged into court
I am for the teacher being disciplined and possibly fired by his superiors.
I am against the notion that he should be subject to a lawsuit on the grounds of violating the very same amendment that protects his freedom of speech.

Is this any clearer now?


I agree. Another civil lawsuit is unnecessary but he should be (in the absolute minimum) warned that these types of comments are unwelcome in a school environment and he either should be fired now or warned that he will be if it happens again.

The Church has a checkered past but he's not doing historians any favors by ignoring the other side of the coin and focusing on presenting his own slant on historical events. On a checkerboard there are many white squares as there are black.

BTW, as Christians we should EXPECT this type of treatment by the world. Jesus warned us of it in the Book of John!



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 10:17:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I agree. Another civil lawsuit is unnecessary but he should be (in the absolute minimum) warned that these types of comments are unwelcome in a school environment and he either should be fired now or warned that he will be if it happens again.

Absolutely, and this is exactly what I said earlier in the thread, but apparently Jhud sees a contradiction (?)

quote:

BTW, as Christians we should EXPECT this type of treatment by the world. Jesus warned us of it in the Book of John!

No disrespect, but everyone in this world gets their toes stepped on, no matter what their religion. We can't go crying and fuming into court everytime our sensitivities are offended. There actually are other ways to deal with such matters.



mapachito13 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 10:42:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

No disrespect, but everyone in this world gets their toes stepped on, no matter what their religion. We can't go crying and fuming into court everytime our sensitivities are offended. There actually are other ways to deal with such matters.


Yes. Sometimes "Christians" are the ones doing the stepping on too!

My point in bringing up the Book of John is to actually agree with your statement about hypersensitivity. Jesus even told us to rejoice when we are persecuted! But now we have a sense of Christian militism that we HAVE TO fight back!

The punishment should fit the crime and I think firing the guy is enough but some people want to take away his house and money just because he said some mean things!



benelchi -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 10:44:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I agree. Another civil lawsuit is unnecessary but he should be (in the absolute minimum) warned that these types of comments are unwelcome in a school environment and he either should be fired now or warned that he will be if it happens again.

Absolutely, and this is exactly what I said earlier in the thread, but apparently Jhud sees a contradiction (?)

quote:

BTW, as Christians we should EXPECT this type of treatment by the world. Jesus warned us of it in the Book of John!

No disrespect, but everyone in this world gets their toes stepped on, no matter what their religion. We can't go crying and fuming into court everytime our sensitivities are offended. There actually are other ways to deal with such matters.


While I agree that there are other ways to deal with this kind of situation, it appears that in this case those other ways were tried and failed to produce any results. For many years Christians stood by and just watched as public policy shifted farther and farther away from biblical standards, much pushed by bad decisions in our courts. If Christians had more actively defended them selves in decades past, it is likely we wouldn't be needing to address so many situations like this one today.



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 11:18:13 AM)

quote:

No, you are simply missing it. I'll break it down for you.
There are two different consequences that we are talking about here:
1. Getting fired
2. Getting dragged into court
I am for the teacher being disciplined and possibly fired by his superiors.
I am against the notion that he should be subject to a lawsuit on the grounds of violating the very same amendment that protects his freedom of speech.

Is this any clearer now?


Yes, what is clear is that you aren't familiar with case; they went to the school, even up to the district level and they failed to act to remove the teacher.

The courts are the logical next step. It's not like they are suing the guy, they are compelling the school to act - so since they are suing for the result you suggest is best, then you must agree with this course of action.



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