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[Poll]
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War in Iraq
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| We are in Iraq because of oil |
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| We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate |
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| We are in Iraq to protect Israel |
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| We are in Iraq to stop terrorists |
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| We are in Iraq for some other reason |
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Total Votes : 397
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(last vote on : 5/16/2008 9:07:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 3:01:03 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3297
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Rich that is not true with respect, there was ethnic cleansing going on. How can you deny that?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 3:15:54 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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Condi is upset and clueless as to why the local Arab governments don't want to embrace a Shia Iraq.
quote:
Arab diplomats say they want to foster long-term stability in Iraq five years after a U.S.-led invasion many of them opposed, but see little sign that the Shiite-led Iraq government will fully include Sunni Muslims in political power and oil wealth. Arab states also privately note that with less than 10 months left in office, the Bush administration has declining leverage both over Arab states and the Baghdad government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351840,00.html?sPage=fnc/world/iraq
Does this include the Awakening Council groups that recieve direct US funding? Is this referring to only the Sadr army and AQ?
quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki is calling on political parties to unite against armed groups in Iraq, a spokesman said Sunday, warning that "Iraq cannot be the new Somalia."
Children inspect a car Sunday struck by a U.S. missile during an overnight airstrike in Baghdad's Sadr City.
"It is a clear message," al-Maliki spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said of the situation in Iraq. "We cannot accept the presence of armed groups."
Somalia has been mired in chaos since 1991, when warlords overthrew dictator Mohamed Siad Barre and then turned on each other.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/04/20/iraq.main/index.html
A new surge?
quote:
Rice in Iraq, violence surges after Sadr threat
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice backed Iraq's crackdown on militias in a visit on Sunday to Baghdad, where the worst fighting in weeks erupted after Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr threatened all-out war.
Rockets blasted the fortified Green Zone compound where Rice met Iraqi officials and praised their month-old campaign against Sadr's followers.
She had harsh words for the reclusive cleric, who on the eve of Rice's visit vowed "open war" if the crackdown continues. Sadr has not appeared in public in Iraq in nearly a year.
"He is still living in Iran. I guess it's all out war for anybody but him," Rice told reporters. "His followers can go to their death and he will still be in Iran."
Sadr is probably living 6,000+ miles away in a comfortable mansion surrounded by secret agents who keep him thoroughly well protected. Sadr probably picks his bestest yet most incompetent buddies to run the war for him. That's just my guess. 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080420/ts_nm/iraq_dc_116
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 3:20:23 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Any reading of the histories of many countries' histories in the past 60 or 70 years will show that many rulers persecuted their own people for political reasons.
He should have just taken all of his opponents and any ethnic groups he didn't care for, rounded them up forcibly, and shoved them onto the some lousy land that has no resources and is difficult to farm and ignored them. Then his treatment of his own people would be on a par with US treatment of our native populations.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 3:57:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1843
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them? How do you explain it? It is something we as Americans are born with, it is part of our culture and make-up. Not so for these people, under Saddam Hussien they were opressed, and learned freedom was obtained by killing anyone who opposed you.
I am sure when slaves in the United States had a hardtime learning to be free, when it happened, think about it. They did not use violence, but, I am sure the mindset was hard to change. Prisoners, who have been incarcerated for many years, will often go back to prison on purpose, because the mindset of captivity is still with them. Give them some time, education, and support and most important prayer, for our military, and the mindset of the Iraqs.
Freedom in Iraq... Funny... Never happen and you can bet when we do pull out the level of Islamic extremism will be higher then ever before, where before is was mild at it's worst in Iraq... It's really funny when you consider the President of the United States believes Islam is a religion of peace...lol
John
What Islamic extremism in Iraq before the war?
Before it was mild? You mean NON-EXISTENT. Saddam Hussein was hated by Islamic extremists because he persecuted them mercilessly.
My bad.... There was none... I guess it's my built in bias against Islam... It's all extreme to me...
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/20/2008 6:00:41 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Rich that is not true with respect, there was ethnic cleansing going on. How can you deny that?
My dear sister Lightshineon: I will address the ethnic cleansing you claim I'm denying after you talk about how the war has turned 4 million of 25 million Iraqis into refugees. To get a perspective, that would be 48 million out of 300 million Americans - roughly six... SIX! times the population of New York City.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/21/2008 6:22:47 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2164
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them? How do you explain it? It is something we as Americans are born with, it is part of our culture and make-up. Not so for these people, under Saddam Hussien they were opressed, and learned freedom was obtained by killing anyone who opposed you.
I am sure when slaves in the United States had a hardtime learning to be free, when it happened, think about it. They did not use violence, but, I am sure the mindset was hard to change. Prisoners, who have been incarcerated for many years, will often go back to prison on purpose, because the mindset of captivity is still with them. Give them some time, education, and support and most important prayer, for our military, and the mindset of the Iraqs.
Freedom in Iraq... Funny... Never happen and you can bet when we do pull out the level of Islamic extremism will be higher then ever before, where before is was mild at it's worst in Iraq... It's really funny when you consider the President of the United States believes Islam is a religion of peace...lol
John
What Islamic extremism in Iraq before the war?
Before it was mild? You mean NON-EXISTENT. Saddam Hussein was hated by Islamic extremists because he persecuted them mercilessly.
My bad.... There was none... I guess it's my built in bias against Islam... It's all extreme to me...
And that is where the problem lies....
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/21/2008 4:40:40 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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Recent news from the Iraqi quagmire
1. US and Iraqi forces have found 2 mass graves with 44 bodies.
2. Secretary of State Condolezza Rice called Moqtada al-Sadr a "coward." I'm disappointed as she had been a realist, a breath of fresh air from the reckless idealism of the neocons from Bush's 1st term.
3. Sadr City (a section of Baghdad) witnesses its residents suffer.
4. Fighting between the Mahdi Army and the Iraqi army has increased.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/21/2008 8:24:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1843
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I think it is hard for the Iraq people, freedom is a concept that is foreign to them? How do you explain it? It is something we as Americans are born with, it is part of our culture and make-up. Not so for these people, under Saddam Hussien they were opressed, and learned freedom was obtained by killing anyone who opposed you.
I am sure when slaves in the United States had a hardtime learning to be free, when it happened, think about it. They did not use violence, but, I am sure the mindset was hard to change. Prisoners, who have been incarcerated for many years, will often go back to prison on purpose, because the mindset of captivity is still with them. Give them some time, education, and support and most important prayer, for our military, and the mindset of the Iraqs.
Freedom in Iraq... Funny... Never happen and you can bet when we do pull out the level of Islamic extremism will be higher then ever before, where before is was mild at it's worst in Iraq... It's really funny when you consider the President of the United States believes Islam is a religion of peace...lol
John
What Islamic extremism in Iraq before the war?
Before it was mild? You mean NON-EXISTENT. Saddam Hussein was hated by Islamic extremists because he persecuted them mercilessly.
My bad.... There was none... I guess it's my built in bias against Islam... It's all extreme to me...
And that is where the problem lies....
Do you have a problem with my take on Islam?
John
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/22/2008 6:12:10 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2164
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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um.....yeah, but that's not up for discussion here. 
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/22/2008 8:26:43 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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Got this from Fox Republican News - the Official News Source of Dead Eye Dick Cheney:
quote:
KUWAIT CITY, Kuwait — Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Tuesday he was disappointed that neighboring countries have not done enough to his war-torn nation and urged them to stop terrorists from infiltrating over their borders.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352179,00.html
Perhaps the Syrian government has a problem policing a border with over 700,000 Iraqi refugees? Perhaps the Jordanians are a little overwhelmed with the 700,000 Iraqi refugees in their country?
We can't even keep our own borders safe and we don't have 700,000 people crammed on them who fled from freedom. Maybe the neighboring countries hired US consultants on how to police the borders "Ok, and if one of your soldiers or guards sees someone crossing over who shouldn't if they respond make sure you nail them in court and give them about 11 years."
Really, I have no clue why the countries neighboring Iraq are having such issues...
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/22/2008 10:35:42 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
Perhaps the Syrian government has a problem policing a border with over 700,000 Iraqi refugees? Perhaps the Jordanians are a little overwhelmed with the 700,000 Iraqi refugees in their country?
We can't even keep our own borders safe and we don't have 700,000 people crammed on them who fled from freedom. Maybe the neighboring countries hired US consultants on how to police the borders "Ok, and if one of your soldiers or guards sees someone crossing over who shouldn't if they respond make sure you nail them in court and give them about 11 years."
Really, I have no clue why the countries neighboring Iraq are having such issues...
RLJ, one of my disagreements with the sentiments of some within the pro-war/pro-Bush camp is their constant harping about how Saddam Hussein was a monster who made the lives of his people miserable and how with him gone, life for Iraqis is so much better.
Then, these same folks absolutely ignore (or perhaps out of discomfort, pride, or whatever other reason - only God knows just what) the horrifying conditions and circumstances which befell Iraq AFTER we invaded... which made the lives of very many... MANY... Iraqis far worse than they'd been under Saddam.
Moreover, these people insist on "staying the course" because it'll be worse if we leave. But these people also show little if any consideration or compassion for the FOUR MILLION IRAQIS OUT OF TWENTY-FIVE MILLION WHO WERE MADE REFUGEES, HALF INSIDE AND HALF OUTSIDE IRAQ. I have to write in bold and caps because when I see Christians who support the war wax lyrical on moralistic justifications for the invasion and for the permanence of US troops - justifications which ALWAYS point to the lot of the Iraqis - they simultaneously say nothing about those 4 million refugees who had to leave their homes because, oh... they just feared for their lives.
These same folks also appear not to be moved when they are told by "liberal leftist communist atheist pro-Saddam America-hating pinkos" like me that if this refugee scenario was applied to our America, a nation of 300 million, that would mean a pudgy FORTY-EIGHT MILLION AMERICANS DRIVEN FROM THEIR HOMES, TURNED INTO REFUGEES... 24 MILLION SCATTERED IN OTHER PARTS OF AMERICA AND THE OTHER 24 MILLION IN CANADA AND MEXICO.
But no, we blame Syria and Jordan for not doing enough. How many refugees from Iraq have we taken in?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/23/2008 5:35:06 AM
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rlj
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
How many refugees from Iraq have we taken in?
Through Feb. 2007 we had allowed 466 in. We were set to allow another 7000 in last year. We have also ignored the pleas of those who helped us - the translators for example who are often put to death when their identities are discovered. Over the years I've mentioned the plight of the translators and how we have done diddly/squat for the refugees.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/23/2008 9:13:54 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
How many refugees from Iraq have we taken in?
Through Feb. 2007 we had allowed 466 in. We were set to allow another 7000 in last year. We have also ignored the pleas of those who helped us - the translators for example who are often put to death when their identities are discovered. Over the years I've mentioned the plight of the translators and how we have done diddly/squat for the refugees.
The folks I described in the post right before yours will say that because life in Iraq is so much better now, that there aren't any refugees for us to otherwise receive. LOL
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/23/2008 2:51:23 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3539
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
How many refugees from Iraq have we taken in?
Through Feb. 2007 we had allowed 466 in. We were set to allow another 7000 in last year. We have also ignored the pleas of those who helped us - the translators for example who are often put to death when their identities are discovered. Over the years I've mentioned the plight of the translators and how we have done diddly/squat for the refugees.
The folks I described in the post right before yours will say that because life in Iraq is so much better now, that there aren't any refugees for us to otherwise receive. LOL
Or, these people knew what they were getting into when they volunteered to be translators. Actually, quite a few have sneaked into the US posing as Latinos.
_____________________________
Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/23/2008 3:38:34 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Or, these people knew what they were getting into when they volunteered to be translators. Actually, quite a few have sneaked into the US posing as Latinos.
Actually Cow quite a few persons from that region have snuck into the US posing as Latinos. Funny how the administration has no problem with potential Arab terrorists sneaking in as cheap labor for their corporate buddies.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/25/2008 7:01:00 PM
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henny
Posts: 1263
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: MN
Status: offline
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It still kind of baffles me as to why republicans are so silent on the issue of the literally billions of dollars that just disappeared in Iraq, not to mention the no-bid, behind closed doors, contracts that went to Halliburton who ended up being one of the more incompetent and wasteful organizations there (how exactly is that free-market principles at work? I thought conservatives were all about letting the market work, but I guess when the VP was a former CEO we can overlook things like that). You never hear about it all that much in the media either, which is a shame.
Is there anyone left who would say with a straight face that this war was a good idea? And I don't mean "in theory" (everything sounds great in theory, which is part of the problem in the first place), I mean someone who would argue that we, or even the Iraqis people, have gained more and done more good than we've lost/spent. All of its old defenders (from back when this thread was in the 100s or so) never seem to come around anymore. Which is why I am wondering where some of the people who supported the war back in the day stand right now, if anyone has changed their minds or not (although I realize that changing one's mind is something that few people will admitt to on these forums).
< Message edited by henny -- 4/25/2008 7:13:55 PM >
_____________________________
Both read the Bible day and night but thou read'st Black where I read white -William Blake
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/25/2008 7:12:01 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
contracts that went to Halliburton who ended up being one of the more incompetent and wasteful organizations there
Iran was really really happy with the work Haliburton did on the South Pars gas fields. : )
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/25/2008 7:28:29 PM
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henny
Posts: 1263
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: MN
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
contracts that went to Halliburton who ended up being one of the more incompetent and wasteful organizations there
Iran was really really happy with the work Haliburton did on the South Pars gas fields. : )
That's just the thing, though.
I don't understand why this doesn't outrage more people, especially given the administration's close ties to HAlliburton. If a democratic president had a VP who was a former CEO of a corporation that was awarded a no bid contract and then performed in the way that Halliburton has, Republicans would be demanding his head and claiming that it was a gross abuse of power/favortism (not to mention calling them traitors when they accept contracts to work for Iran).
When the war was started I actually scoffed at the protestors who held up "No Blood For OIL!" signs, just because I thought they were framing the issue in an overly contentious and simplistic manner. But I have to say, that I can't say that this was all that far fetched in the end. Not that I believe that the Bush admin went to war only for money or oil, but it is kind of distressing how quickly they seemed to exploit the situation financially given that basically all their freinds got a whirlwind payday as a result.
I hate hyperbole, but I really think this administration is one of the worst we've ever seen. And I don't say that just because I'm liberal. I think basically any Republican president of the past 30 years wouldn't have messed things up as badly as this president has -even McCain, who while I won't vote for him, I do think he'll go a long way in repairing a lot of the damage the Bush administration has done over the past 8 years if he's elected. So I welcome him at this point.
_____________________________
Both read the Bible day and night but thou read'st Black where I read white -William Blake
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/26/2008 1:18:26 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
When the war was started I actually scoffed at the protestors who held up "No Blood For OIL!" signs, just because I thought they were framing the issue in an overly contentious and simplistic manner. But I have to say, that I can't say that this was all that far fetched in the end. Not that I believe that the Bush admin went to war only for money or oil, but it is kind of distressing how quickly they seemed to exploit the situation financially given that basically all their freinds got a whirlwind payday as a result.
This is a major reason some countries resent our foreign policy. They see our leaders not as crusaders for freedom and democracy, but as plunderers who utilize force to oppress and to exploit weaker nations to acquire their natural resources. This is what the English and Spaniards of yesteryear did in the New World.
If anyone thinks the desire to make some serious greenbacks wasn't in the minds of those in charge, I've got some prime real estate on Mars to sell you at a discount, with a mortgage written on paper made out of fresh dinosaur skin - purple with rainbow polkadots.
In the meantime, in the real Iraq (not the one Bush and McCain talk about), an American soldier was killed yesterday. This follows the deaths of 5 other US troops on Tuesday.
And as the people of liberated, democratic Iraq, unemployment is, well, a problem.
And finally, as for the violence that engulfed Iraq (the insurgency that our leaders told us a while back was in its "last throes"), the Pentagon now estimates that the Iraqi army (the same one which saw some of its troops and commanders engage in dereliction of duty against Moqtada Al-Sadr's Mahdi Army recently), we are now told that the Iraqi army will need 646,000 troops to successfully battle the insurgency.
That'll be the day, I say.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/26/2008 1:22:13 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1679
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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It's really interesting.
In earlier times this thread was full of pro-war Crosswalkers gushing about how Iraq was going to be democratic, how the war was going to be won, etc. And people who criticized the war were derided as anti-American and other kind names.
Now it's 2008, the sixth year of the US-led occupation of post-Baath Iraq. We haven't won.
I keep asking, and yet fail to ever get an answer. Since some of you here who support the war appear to support John McCain's bid for the presidency because he claims we can and will win, how exactly are we going to win?
Does anyone have an answer? Or were the "liberal leftist pro-Hussein Osama-lover America-hating commies" perhaps onto something when they opposed the war on the grounds that this might end badly?
Will I ever get an answer?... or just... a sepulchral silence?
*breeze outside*
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/26/2008 2:06:47 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1420
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The Iraqi government, according to the auditors, keeps the dead on the pay rolls so that their families can continue to receive funds.
That makes me proud seeing as how our core values of shafting the government have successfully been exported. : ) They must have learned quite a bit watching Halliburton and the rest of our contractors.
_____________________________
And the money says 'In God We Trust' but it's against the law to pray in schools... don't ask me for the answers I've only got one, that a man leaves his darkness when he follows the Son.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/27/2008 7:26:22 PM
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