RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (Full Version)

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freakofnature -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 11:08:50 AM)

Try this on: This is Michelle O on the Colbert report. Snobs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7AqmLH9z9Qw

By the way, being elite is one thing being an elitist is yet another for those trying to define what elite is. Tony Dungy-Elite Coach in the NFL, one of a kind, but the nicest most humble man, in the limelight, that I have ever met, and I have met with a few uh... stars of sport and music if you will.

Al Gore- Elitist, Barak Obama, Elitist, John McCain, mostly elitist.




TomTurn -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 11:34:33 AM)

quote:

As I said, there is nothing wrong with elitism, it's snobbery and this attitude of being owed something that should be cause for concern.


Agreed, elite is good. We want an elite military, etc.

To be an elitiest is to be a snob




Jhud -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 11:42:52 AM)

quote:

Agreed, elite is good. We want an elite military, etc.

To be an elitiest is to be a snob


Not neccesarily.

I agree we want 'elites', that is people who are uniquely qualified to carry out certain tasks, and form a core of people who have achieved their positions as a result of performing those tasks well, and are thus 'elites', but snobbery is a different thing.

Snobbery is the idea that one's elite status endows one with inherent superiority, and that as a result others, less endowed, owe special allegiance to the snob in question.

That while others are constrained by their base natures (Religion, xenophobia, artillary ownership) the snob in question has risen above his base nature, and can thus dictate to others the true manner by which we should live.

That would be the difference between an elite and a snob.




stamper_ben -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 11:50:07 AM)

Yeah! My 12 gauge makes me elite, but not a snob.[8D]




TomTurn -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 12:21:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stamper_ben

Yeah! My 12 gauge makes me elite, but not a snob.[8D]


Stop clinging




HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 12:32:14 PM)

quote:

Yeah! My 12 gauge makes me elite, but not a snob.


I see you're economically downtrodden and bitter too, just like me. Except, of course, I prefer Winchester rifles. [;)]




blessedinnyc -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 12:34:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

quote:

Yeah! My 12 gauge makes me elite, but not a snob.


I see you're economically downtrodden and bitter too, just like me. Except, of course, I prefer Winchester rifles. [;)]

I'm a librul pansy, so I just keep the cash in my wallet under $100, rather than carry. [:D]




HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 1:25:49 PM)

quote:


I'm a librul pansy, so I just keep the cash in my wallet under $100, rather than carry.


And, I'm sure your $100 is safe. You're an intellectual liberal, so you can carry on a reasoned discussion and thereby avoid any molestation. [;)]




IonMoon -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 2:06:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
He's out of touch; last time I looked Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Detroit, and many others, where the jobs have been gone now for 25 years; are Cities. Does he not even know the difference between Cities and small towns? Yes, small towns have lost a lot of jobs too, but to point fingers at small towns as being the ones who are "bitter" and "cling to guns, or religion, or antipathy toward people who aren't like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." --- he's just plain out of touch.


The difference is that in the cities where the steel mills left, new jobs sprung up... in the small towns surrounding those cities (like where I am from) the steel mills left and are still sitting there... empty... with no new jobs coming into the area to speak of.

There are jobs if you have a degree and are willing to drive into the city. There are schools and service positions and some small hospitals... and that's about it. There are very few jobs that are like what the steel mills offered- pay enough to raise a family, without needing a degree.

The biggest employers in my county after the steel collapse were An airline (which has since all but shut down), Wal Mart, and a hospital.

I agree with what Obama said- and I am from small town PA! People ARE bitter. And bitter people do can and do use their religion, guns, etc. in a divisive way. Not all people who go to church and are religious have Jesus in their hearts

IMO this statement has done nothing- nor Clinton's response... the people who supported Obama before still do; the ones who didn't are the ones trumping it up. I have not personally run into ONE person who has said that this statement has in any way influenced their decision.

Tara P




StephK -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 2:24:43 PM)

Have those small towns looked at why the jobs aren't locating there? Could it be the state's business policies regarding taxes, right to work or union, etc.? States that adjusted their policies are luring new businesses and growing like gangbusters. If Mississippi can change things to the point where lots of businesses are relocating then any state should be able to do the same. Texas and Florida have been leading the way for how to do it too. I think Tennessee, NC and other states did the same thing. Things won't change if you keep doing them the same way.




freakofnature -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 3:35:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

Have those small towns looked at why the jobs aren't locating there? Could it be the state's business policies regarding taxes, right to work or union, etc.? States that adjusted their policies are luring new businesses and growing like gangbusters. If Mississippi can change things to the point where lots of businesses are relocating then any state should be able to do the same. Texas and Florida have been leading the way for how to do it too. I think Tennessee, NC and other states did the same thing. Things won't change if you keep doing them the same way.


Are we forgetting that would mean the goverment of these states would have to actually do something instead of sitting back on their laurels and blaming Bush?




blessedinnyc -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 3:48:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

quote:


I'm a librul pansy, so I just keep the cash in my wallet under $100, rather than carry.


And, I'm sure your $100 is safe. You're an intellectual liberal, so you can carry on a reasoned discussion and thereby avoid any molestation. [;)]

I would explain to him that my 12% in state and local taxes is going to help pay for job training, health care, food, and housing for the poor.

He'd still mug me, but at least he'd give me a mugging receipt. I'd then go into the local Mugging Rebate Commission office and wait in line for five hours to get my money back. I love big government!




StephK -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 4:03:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freakofnature

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

Have those small towns looked at why the jobs aren't locating there? Could it be the state's business policies regarding taxes, right to work or union, etc.? States that adjusted their policies are luring new businesses and growing like gangbusters. If Mississippi can change things to the point where lots of businesses are relocating then any state should be able to do the same. Texas and Florida have been leading the way for how to do it too. I think Tennessee, NC and other states did the same thing. Things won't change if you keep doing them the same way.


Are we forgetting that would mean the goverment of these states would have to actually do something instead of sitting back on their laurels and blaming Bush?


I do believe that is the issue. [;)]




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 4:14:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rainbowtvp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
He's out of touch; last time I looked Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Detroit, and many others, where the jobs have been gone now for 25 years; are Cities. Does he not even know the difference between Cities and small towns? Yes, small towns have lost a lot of jobs too, but to point fingers at small towns as being the ones who are "bitter" and "cling to guns, or religion, or antipathy toward people who aren't like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." --- he's just plain out of touch.


The difference is that in the cities where the steel mills left, new jobs sprung up... in the small towns surrounding those cities (like where I am from) the steel mills left and are still sitting there... empty... with no new jobs coming into the area to speak of.

There are jobs if you have a degree and are willing to drive into the city. .....

True, but you would find in the cities there are jobs if you have a degree, if can speak two or more languages, and, if you can find one:
Blue Collar Workers Hurt by Failure to Curb Illegal Immigration

An article in New Jersey’s Star Ledger addresses a major issue where illegal aliens are concerned: the practice of hiring illegal aliens willing to do the work Americans should be doing but are unable to do because the illegal alien workforce is willing to accept substandard wages, no benefits, and often dangerous conditions that in and of themselves are illegal.

…… Blue Collar Americans, the backbone of this nation, are getting clobbered by the hiring practices of unprincipled employers who know that they have virtually nothing to fear where the hiring of illegal aliens is concerned. When President Bush declares that "illegal aliens do the work Americans aren't doing," he conveniently leaves out the other half of that statement – that they cannot afford to take those jobs any longer because the wages have been slashed.

How many homeowners are paying hefty fees for jobs that are substandard at best? Day laborers do not have the skill or experience of tradesmen. It is not even a contest where quality of work is concerned. The greedy employers get to pocket lots of extra money, their customers get substandard work, and American workers are losing their jobs and their ability to provide for their families.

…. Americans do back-breaking, dirty and dangerous jobs each and every day. Americans will still do any job provided that their paychecks can support them and their families. Americans are not lazy or soft. The politicians who exhibit such contempt for those hard working Americans should hang their heads in shame. And, any politicians who refuse to support the American worker should be in need of new jobs themselves!

Yet there is another issue that needs to be addressed, and that is the way unions have made some really terrible decisions where illegal immigration is concerned. When labor unions allow illegal aliens to join the unions and then lobby the legislatures on behalf of those illegal aliens, they encourage more illegal immigration and undercut their long-time members.

But the problem is much more complicated than just a loss of jobs.

The illegal aliens who work in our country not only displace American workers, but send money out of the country, enriching the economies of their native countries while doing serious harm to ours. Last year an estimated 45 billion dollars was wired from the United States to Latin America and the Caribbean. Many billions more were wired to other countries around the world. Additionally, money was smuggled out of the United States by illegal aliens.

The issue of illegal immigration is not a conservative or liberal Issue: illegal immigration is an American issue that should be of great concern to all Americans irrespective of political party affiliation.

From Here




davemiller7 -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 4:17:25 PM)

"What the new messiah does not understand is that I rely on my deep seated beliefs and values all the time. The new messiah has went to an angry church for so long he thinks that is normal. He is a socialist / marxist joke and can hit the road with his loser wife!"

I agree with you on 99.9% of everything I've seen you post, but please reconsider your wording. No socialist/Marxist should be considered a joke. They're far too dangerous to be a joke. Consider the following, attributed to Pastor Martin Niemoller about the Nazis in Germany:

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Let these people in power and we're in for real trouble!

Keep up the great posts.

-Dave




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 4:43:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freakofnature

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

Have those small towns looked at why the jobs aren't locating there? Could it be the state's business policies regarding taxes, right to work or union, etc.? States that adjusted their policies are luring new businesses and growing like gangbusters. If Mississippi can change things to the point where lots of businesses are relocating then any state should be able to do the same. Texas and Florida have been leading the way for how to do it too. I think Tennessee, NC and other states did the same thing. Things won't change if you keep doing them the same way.


Are we forgetting that would mean the goverment of these states would have to actually do something instead of sitting back on their laurels and blaming Bush?

There's No luring new businesses and growing here; leastwise none for Blue Collar Americans to do.




StephK -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 4:57:45 PM)

In order to get out of the circumstances people have to change how they do things. That includes going back to school or learning a new trade, governments restructuring their business tax codes, becoming a right to work state, etc. Those states and areas that have adapted are growing.




its_GO_time -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 5:38:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

Have those small towns looked at why the jobs aren't locating there? Could it be the state's business policies regarding taxes, right to work or union, etc.? States that adjusted their policies are luring new businesses and growing like gangbusters. If Mississippi can change things to the point where lots of businesses are relocating then any state should be able to do the same. Texas and Florida have been leading the way for how to do it too. I think Tennessee, NC and other states did the same thing. Things won't change if you keep doing them the same way.


From the Buckeye Institute:
"What is the difference between Ohio and Texas? According to the Tax Foundation, Ohio’s state and local tax burden has risen from 8.2% in 1970 when the state ranked 47th among the states in tax burden to 12.4% in 2007 when it ranked as the 5th highest taxed state in the country. Texas on the other hand ranked 49th in 1970 and 46th in 2007 with a level of 9.3% in state and local tax burden.[7] NAFTA has not taken manufacturing jobs from Ohio; the jobs have been taken away by the low-tax low- regulation states like Texas, Arizona and Tennessee.

Workers looking for reasons for Ohio’s anemic job market need look no further than the State House where our legislators have been perpetuating the high tax, high regulation policies that have made the state a very bad place to do business. NAFTA is nothing but a convenient excuse for our own self imposed economic problems."




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 6:21:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

In order to get out of the circumstances people have to change how they do things.

WHY?
Construction workers are still building with the same tools and talents; Miners are still mining with the same tools, skills and talents; and etc.

quote:

That includes going back to school or learning a new trade

They want to WORK at what they have talent and skills in; Not go to school and learn a new trade!!

quote:

,governments restructuring their business tax codes, becoming a right to work state, etc. Those states and areas that have adapted are growing.

And the people have to take it or leave it? That's NOT acceptable!! I want to know where the Real MEN are? I want to know when they are going to get really angry (not bitter) and start telling them how it's going to be; remember that thingy that starts out, 'We the people....'




StephK -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 6:43:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

In order to get out of the circumstances people have to change how they do things.

WHY?
Construction workers are still building with the same tools and talents; Miners are still mining with the same tools, skills and talents; and etc.

quote:

That includes going back to school or learning a new trade

They want to WORK at what they have talent and skills in; Not go to school and learn a new trade!!

quote:

,governments restructuring their business tax codes, becoming a right to work state, etc. Those states and areas that have adapted are growing.

And the people have to take it or leave it? That's NOT acceptable!! I want to know where the Real MEN are? I want to know when they are going to get really angry (not bitter) and start telling them how it's going to be; remember that thingy that starts out, 'We the people....'




Read the above post. It has a lot to do with the tax structure. Look I live in Louisiana. I know all about this issue. We finally have a FORWARD thinking governor who understands the need to totally revamp the tax code that penalizes businesses. Right now they all go to Texas or Mississippi because the state and local leaders have changed with the times.




lightshineon -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 6:46:49 PM)

Saw the YOU TUBE, two comments Michelle is very pretty, when she smiles. She had a hard look on her face until she was in the joking mood. I did get a whiff of arrogance from her though, well more than a whiff.




blessedinnyc -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 7:07:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: its_GO_time

Have those small towns looked at why the jobs aren't locating there? Could it be the state's business policies regarding taxes, right to work or union, etc.? States that adjusted their policies are luring new businesses and growing like gangbusters. If Mississippi can change things to the point where lots of businesses are relocating then any state should be able to do the same. Texas and Florida have been leading the way for how to do it too. I think Tennessee, NC and other states did the same thing. Things won't change if you keep doing them the same way.


From the Buckeye Institute:
"What is the difference between Ohio and Texas? According to the Tax Foundation, Ohio’s state and local tax burden has risen from 8.2% in 1970 when the state ranked 47th among the states in tax burden to 12.4% in 2007 when it ranked as the 5th highest taxed state in the country. Texas on the other hand ranked 49th in 1970 and 46th in 2007 with a level of 9.3% in state and local tax burden.[7] NAFTA has not taken manufacturing jobs from Ohio; the jobs have been taken away by the low-tax low- regulation states like Texas, Arizona and Tennessee.

Workers looking for reasons for Ohio’s anemic job market need look no further than the State House where our legislators have been perpetuating the high tax, high regulation policies that have made the state a very bad place to do business. NAFTA is nothing but a convenient excuse for our own self imposed economic problems."

One of the things that the Buckeye Institute missed was that oil prices went from $3/barrel in 1970 to $90/barrel in 2007. This would have caused the Texan oil-based economy to grow at a roughly 10% nominal rate in and of itself.

It's easy to compete against foreigners when your state's main industry is competing against a bunch of angry third-world governments who think the price of oil is too low.

Also, why no mention of Nevada's raging manufacturing economy? You'd think that all of the manufacturers would pack up and leave for Nevada, since they have a 0% state corporate income tax and few regulations (Texas has a 5% state corporate income tax, which is roughly on par with Michigan.)




colliefan -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 10:17:46 PM)

quote:

The greedy employers get to pocket lots of extra money, their customers get substandard work, and American workers are losing their jobs and their ability to provide for their families.


So, individuals who risked their money, and the money of investors who pooled their money with them have no right to expect a return on their money.

People don't want to do an honest day's work and expect their employer to kowtow to their every wish. They don't want to learn new skills to have a new job. Look what happend to the buggy whip makers when the auto came on the scene. Do you want to stay in the horse and buggy days. If the environmental wackos get their way this is where we will be forced to return.




colliefan -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 10:22:41 PM)

quote:

the jobs have been taken away by the low-tax low- regulation states like Texas, Arizona and Tennessee.


Then cut taxes and cut spending. Two years ago NC had a 2 billion dollar surplus and blew it all by spending it on neccesities such a $400,000 for a tea-cup museum




Pat-rebel_lady -> RE: Obama's comments about small-town America (4/16/2008 11:56:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

In order to get out of the circumstances people have to change how they do things.

WHY?
Construction workers are still building with the same tools and talents; Miners are still mining with the same tools, skills and talents; and etc.

quote:

That includes going back to school or learning a new trade

They want to WORK at what they have talent and skills in; Not go to school and learn a new trade!!

quote:

,governments restructuring their business tax codes, becoming a right to work state, etc. Those states and areas that have adapted are growing.

And the people have to take it or leave it? That's NOT acceptable!! I want to know where the Real MEN are? I want to know when they are going to get really angry (not bitter) and start telling them how it's going to be; remember that thingy that starts out, 'We the people....'




Read the above post. It has a lot to do with the tax structure. Look I live in Louisiana. I know all about this issue. We finally have a FORWARD thinking governor who understands the need to totally revamp the tax code that penalizes businesses. Right now they all go to Texas or Mississippi because the state and local leaders have changed with the times.

Do you mean like:
Tax breaks for corporations aren't doing the job for Jersey
Three pharmaceutical companies that got more than $65 million in subsidies from New Jersey now are laying off employees and reducing their business -- once again calling into question whether tax breaks and other handouts are effective tools for economic development and why the state doesn't ask key questions before writing checks.

The money given to Bristol- Myers Squibb, Novartis and Pfizer comes mostly from the state's Business Employment Incentive Program, which over the past 11 years has awarded nearly $540 million to hundreds of companies that moved to or expanded in New Jersey. Under the program, companies get to keep a share of the money withheld for employees' state in come tax in return for hiring specified numbers of people.
More Here
OR
OHIO
Does GM Mean General Movers?

Given the money politicians are willing to spend, it is no wonder companies have made their assets portable--game pieces that can be moved around the board of economic development. General Motors Corp. has played the game like a champion, a classic example of a company that has secured hundreds of millions of dollars in corporate welfare at the same time that it has eliminated thousands of jobs. And, according to business analysts, GM has to eliminate 50,000 more jobs if it wants to survive the next century.

In effect, the company is in the process of auctioning its surviving jobs to the highest bidders in the communities where it does business. Here's how it works: during the summer of 1997, GM let it be known that it was considering a $355 million expansion of an assembly plant in Moraine, Ohio, to build sport-utility vehicles. The decision would hinge on the size of tax breaks granted by the city government. After all, two other cities with GM truck plants--Shreveport, La., and Linden, N.J.--were vying for the new facility. At least that is what GM officials hinted to Moraine officials. And that is what the local newspaper, the Dayton Daily News, duly reported.
There was one problem. The story GM floated was not true. Company executives later apologized for any misunderstanding. Erroneous claims aside, Moraine agreed to exempt General Motors from taxes on $355 million worth of machinery, equipment and inventory for 10 years and to excuse the company from real estate taxes for 15 years on the planned $65 million building.

So how much did GM save? Moraine city officials will not say, but county officials estimate GM is off the hook for $30 million in real estate and personal property taxes. GM also put the touch on the county economic-development authority for a cash grant of $1 million.
This and more Here




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