RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (Full Version)

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tracydolls -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 12:18:47 PM)

quote:

I see, so we punish the people who work hard in this country and are successful
,

most of them don't work hard, they inherit their wealth



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then turn around and give that money to people who don't even try.


no give to the poor, those that can't work, like children



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That is a socialist view, big government distributing wealth. What's next, 'hey they have 3 houses that's too many, let's take away two of them and give them to the homeless!'.


that would certainly help the homeless problem



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That's the problem with the Democrats, tax the rich and give to the poor, only they don't really give to the poor, they take all that money they get from the rich and spend it on pork barrel projects.


the poor do better under liberals

Repugs spent more on pork barrel than anyone, look at the history of it.


quote:

What happened during the six years of Republican control? Well let's see, record low unemployment, record highs set by wall street, millions of low income families removed from a tax burden due to the Bush tax cuts, national security.


Where's the real stats? or better yet, where are you getting yours, under Clinton 22 million jobs created, under Bush only 5 million.

You really think we are secure? from what? Bin Laden could not plan another attack because of...... our airports are so secure? he's in jail?

what makes us so secure, most empires come down from within, I suspect that will happen to this one also



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 12:22:02 PM)

quote:

most of them don't work hard, they inherit their wealth


Wrong, 80% of the millionaires in this country are first generation wealth.



tracydolls -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 12:27:17 PM)

quote:

quote:

Personally, I am finding this current election season increasingly interesting and engaging.

Me too Jack. I have enjoyed watching Obama be exposed for who he really is.


2008 Campaign

Candidates left: 3

Cost : 1 billion

Watching racists like Sean Hannity FOAM at the mouth at BO: PRICELESS


I have to ask daily for forgiveness at my glee.



tracydolls -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 12:53:10 PM)

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Wrong, 80% of the millionaires in this country are first generation wealth.


I had to go look that up again. This is what I found after those figures.



"""Each of these stats measures slightly different things, yet they all come to the same basic conclusion: Inheritance is not the main driver of today’s wealth. The reason we’ve had a doubling in the number of millionaires and billionaires over the past decade (even adjusted for inflation) is that more of the non-wealthy have become wealthy.

So it’s not just that the same old rich folks are getting richer. The more-important shift is that the rich are getting more numerous."""

Nope still don't change my mind, tax them too. I don't want hard working people to get taxed, I want the rich to get taxed, people just don't need a 38 million dollar stamp. I would rather people get water.



stamper_ben -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 1:21:40 PM)

The rich are getting more numerous. That is from your source Tracy.

Now how are they getting that way? By sitting around the money tree and picking it?

NO! They are doing it through HARD WORK! That same hard work that is available to ANY American.

So answer me, where does it stop? If someone makes 1 million in a year they should pay it all in taxes? Should they be forced to pay more than that? How much is enough?



P31W -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 1:52:12 PM)

Sad to be so very angry and jealous.



Jhud -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 2:10:28 PM)

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Nope still don't change my mind, tax them too. I don't want hard working people to get taxed, I want the rich to get taxed, people just don't need a 38 million dollar stamp. I would rather people get water.


Is there a big problem with people dying of thirst in the US I haven't heard about?



P31W -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 2:14:31 PM)

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Is there a big problem with people dying of thirst in the US I haven't heard about?


Nobody told you Jack!!! Folks are dropping like flies because they don't have any flavored bottle water to drink right here in the good ole USA. It's WRONG I tell you WRONG.

The government should be sending in millions of bottles per day for us. You know that water from the kitchen sink just has a "funny taste".

Don't ask me to drink that "spring" water either. We have springs all over the place around here. They say it's the best water around but I know a fish may have peeded in it!

That well water also has a funny smell. Don't you dare tell you to draw a bucket of that stuff! I want my water in a bottle from the store that the government paid for!



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 3:19:05 PM)

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Nope still don't change my mind, tax them too. I don't want hard working people to get taxed, I want the rich to get taxed, people just don't need a 38 million dollar stamp. I would rather people get water.


If you want money you didn't earn, why not get it the old-fashioned way and just start sticking people up in the streets? Why wait for the bureaucracy to do the dirty work?



inthysite -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 3:35:00 PM)

According to the US Department of Labor the unemployment stats since 93 when Clinton took office continued to drop during his presidency. They temporarily rose at the beginning of Bush's presidency but that was due to several factors, among them being the small recession Clinton left Bush, the dot com fiasco, and 9/11. But then the rate started to decline once again. The latest rate as of January 2008 is 4.2%
1993 6.9
1994 6.1
1995 5.6
1996 5.4
1997 4.9
1998 4.5
1999 4.2
2000 4.0
2001 4.7
2002 5.8
2003 6.0
2004 5.5
2005 5.1
2006 4.6

No where does it show unemployment rates of 3.5% as you quoted you you may need to check your sources.

As to raising taxes during a recession I choose to believe The Wall Street Journal:

Raising taxes in a housing slump isn't the smartest policy.

Here are some excerpts:

That was fast. A mere two days after Democrats capture Congress claiming they wouldn't raise taxes, former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin tells them they should do so anyway.
...
We suppose it's reassuring that Mr. Rubin now thinks the economy is strong enough to withstand a tax increase. That's a switch from his opposition to the 2003 Bush tax cuts, which he predicted would bust the budget and do little for growth. The U.S. economy proceeded to grow by an average of nearly 4% a year for three years following mid-2003, until the recent slowdown due largely to the housing slump.
...
Everyone makes mistakes, but raising taxes amid a housing decline doesn't sound like brilliant policy to us. Depending on inflation signals in the coming weeks, the Federal Reserve may not be done raising interest rates. The best hope for avoiding a recession next year and into 2008 is that strong corporate profits and the tight job market will lift business investment and consumer spending enough to offset the impact of tighter monetary policy. The last thing the economy needs now is a tax increase, too.
...
And what are the urgent "fiscal problems" that justify a tax increase, anyway? As the nearby chart shows, federal revenues in fiscal 2006 were 18.4% of GDP, higher than the 18.2% post-1965 average. In October, the first month of fiscal 2007, revenues rose by 12% from a year earlier. Mr. Rubin thinks this windfall isn't enough; perhaps he wants to return to the late Clinton years, when the feds grabbed a record 20.9% of GDP and taxpayers demanded a refund by endorsing George W. Bush's tax cut proposal in the election of 2000.
...
By the way, the federal deficit for fiscal 2006 was only 1.9% of GDP, which is lower than all but eight years since 1975. Add in the budget surpluses at the state level, and the overall U.S. fiscal "deficit" is economically trivial.
...
By the way, how does Mr. Rubin continue to dodge any historical accountability for the dot-com bust of 2000 and the recession that followed? In the liberal economic narrative, we are supposed to believe that the Clinton Administration somehow ended in 1999, and that Mr. Bush is to blame for everything that followed. Yet the Nasdaq peak came in the spring of 2000 and the third quarter of that year recorded negative growth. The shallow recession began in March 2001, with slower-than-average growth continuing until the tax cuts on dividends and the top marginal income rate passed in 2003 and the expansion moved into high gear.



blessedinnyc -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/15/2008 7:40:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter

quote:

most of them don't work hard, they inherit their wealth


Wrong, 80% of the millionaires in this country are first generation wealth.

So then 80% of the country won't mind if we let the estate tax come back into effect in 2011.



P31W -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/16/2008 7:42:21 AM)

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So then 80% of the country won't mind if we let the estate tax come back into effect in 2011


Why would you think that? Don't you know that people want to leave their children, grandchildren and those who have helped them along life's way an inheritance.
Shouldn't the individual who "earned" the money have the right to leave it to whom they wish?


Pr 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance for his children's children, but a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous.

Pr 17:2
A wise servant will rule over a disgraceful son, and will share the inheritance as one of the brothers.



cow451 -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/16/2008 1:52:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Personally, I am finding this current election season increasingly interesting and engaging.

That's because you are a nerd. I'm enjoying it also.



blessedinnyc -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/16/2008 3:39:43 PM)

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ORIGINAL: inthysite

According to the US Department of Labor the unemployment stats since 93 when Clinton took office continued to drop during his presidency. They temporarily rose at the beginning of Bush's presidency but that was due to several factors, among them being the small recession Clinton left Bush, the dot com fiasco, and 9/11. But then the rate started to decline once again. The latest rate as of January 2008 is 4.2%

Exactly. Unemployment decreased under Clinton and increased under Bush. (No brainer).

My understanding was that the Fed decided to lower its estimate of minimum sustainable unemployment from 4.5% to 3.5% under Clinton. In other words, the Phillips Curve moved inwards under Clintons watch (allowing us to have low prices and a good economy), while it moved out under Bush's watch (higher prices, weaker economy.)


1993 6.9
1994 6.1
1995 5.6
1996 5.4
1997 4.9
1998 4.5
1999 4.2
2000 4.0
2001 4.7
2002 5.8
2003 6.0
2004 5.5
2005 5.1
2006 4.6

quote:

Here are some excerpts:

That was fast. A mere two days after Democrats capture Congress claiming they wouldn't raise taxes, former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin tells them they should do so anyway.

There's a reason that Robert Rubin became the CEO of Goldman Sachs while the editors of the WSJ are where they are. (Apparently, they couldn't cut it in the finance world).

quote:

Everyone makes mistakes, but raising taxes amid a housing decline doesn't sound like brilliant policy to us. Depending on inflation signals in the coming weeks, the Federal Reserve may not be done raising interest rates. The best hope for avoiding a recession next year and into 2008 is that strong corporate profits and the tight job market will lift business investment and consumer spending enough to offset the impact of tighter monetary policy. The last thing the economy needs now is a tax increase, too.

Higher interest rates will also mean higher debt service costs. The WSJ is focused on the next 12 months, and not the next 12 years. It's better for the economy to endure a little short-term pain (while we also have the ability to export in a strong global economy) than it is for us to cop out and go further into debt.

quote:

And what are the urgent "fiscal problems" that justify a tax increase, anyway? As the nearby chart shows, federal revenues in fiscal 2006 were 18.4% of GDP, higher than the 18.2% post-1965 average. In October, the first month of fiscal 2007, revenues rose by 12% from a year earlier. Mr. Rubin thinks this windfall isn't enough; perhaps he wants to return to the late Clinton years, when the feds grabbed a record 20.9% of GDP and taxpayers demanded a refund by endorsing George W. Bush's tax cut proposal in the election of 2000.

Sunsetting provisions of the 2003 tax cuts would still leave Bush's original 2000 proposal in.

quote:

By the way, the federal deficit for fiscal 2006 was only 1.9% of GDP, which is lower than all but eight years since 1975. Add in the budget surpluses at the state level, and the overall U.S. fiscal "deficit" is economically trivial.

What about the federal debt? Do they also realize that GASB doesn't require accrual accounting? That the medical costs and pension costs of the military, which are costing us as much as an extra $100 Billion/year in yet-to-be-accounted-for accruals, is also going into the deficit?

Do they realize the servicing the federal deficit is now costing our country an unprecendented 2% of GDP?



tracydolls -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 9:18:05 AM)

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NO! They are doing it through HARD WORK! That same hard work that is available to ANY American.



Hard work doing what? Playing basket ball, predatory lending?


Rich people need to pay more! they do not need, all that junk. Paintings more than people? $100,000 clocks? While people are starving in the world.
quote:


Is there a big problem with people dying of thirst in the US I haven't heard about?


Actually I was thinking of AFrica. What they don't count?



So we think God looks down on us sees us buying million dollar stamps and painting, filling houses with junk , buying things just to say we have them, and not give water or food to our brothers and sisters in the world and He is pleased?

Again, I'll say it.

NOT THE GOD I SERVE. Not the one of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Pro 22:9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.

Pro 28:11 The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out.

Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.


Psa 40:17 But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.



P31W -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 11:08:30 AM)

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Rich people need to pay more! they do not need, all that junk.


What about You Tracy. Do you need that make up and those earings?

What about a change of cloths? Do you need two outfits?

Maybe God is blessing some people. Are you saying it's wrong form them to enjoy what God has blessed them with?

Do you have more than one pillow?

You are trying to make people feel guilty for not being broke.

If God blesses someone with wealth. They thank God for that wealth and use it in the way "HE" (not you) say to use it who are you to tell them they are wrong? Who are you to judge them when you yourself have things you don't need.

quote:

NOT THE GOD I SERVE. Not the one of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


God blessed all these men and they became extremely wealthy.



inthysite -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 11:38:52 AM)

Your list of all these wealthy people buying these expensive items, do you know what their charitable givings are? How do you know that they don't give a good percentage of what they have?

There are plenty of rich Christians, middle-class Christians, and even poor Christians who give their money to their church, missions, Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon, etc.

There are a lot of non-Christians who give their money to charity as well. The point is that they voluntarily give their money.

Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
(2Co 9:6-7 NASB)

Increasing the taxes of people who make more money because they are the big bad rich makes them a little angry thus causing them to give grudgingly and under compulsion. So when you start quoting God's word about giving make sure you take it in context with other scripture.

Yeah, God wants us to give but he wants us to do it cheerfully. As Christians we should want to help those who are less fortunate out of a loving, caring heart. Give because we have been given. Not because the government says I make too much money and I don't deserve to keep it all.



P31W -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 11:52:20 AM)

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There are plenty of rich Christians, middle-class Christians, and even poor Christians who give their money to their church, missions, Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon, etc.


AHHH are you Southern Baptist?



inthysite -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 1:15:02 PM)

[:)]



P31W -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 2:26:28 PM)

I'm the women on missions director in our church. When you named out missionaries (speical offerings) my heart had to take a leap.

What God has on my heart is not so much "feeding" people with food but feeding them with God's Holy Word so they will never hunger and thirst again. Therefore I give most of my money to support missionaries on the field. Then those missionaries (not the government) offers to the residents help in "Jesus name". They make personal contact with the people and are able to witness to them as they help them with their physical needs.

Believe it or not. God uses people physical needs to help them be open to hear about his love for them.



inthysite -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 3:24:54 PM)

That is exactly my point. When taxpayers are allowed to keep more of their income it helps others around them and around the world.

Lower taxes equals increased personal spending, which boosts the economy. To support my point last night during the Democratic debate both Hillary and Barack were asked about raising taxes and specifically raising capital gains tax. Barack stated that he would raise them and then it was pointed out that when Bill Clinton lowered them government revenue increased, and again when Bushed lowered them even further.

When we are allowed to keep our money we tend to invest, give, purchase goods, etc. All of which are good for the economy.

And I come to this viewpoint not from that of a rich man but actually from someone who is currently below the poverty line. The company I used to work for was bought out and I lost my job, due to some bad choices on my part my wife left me and took most of what I had left. I've lost everything.

But rather than cry about it and say the government owes me healthcare, welfare, and other assistance I have decided to allow God to meet my needs and do whatever is required to support myself and my son.

I've started 3 businesses over the last 3 years, one of which has completely failed and the other two I still work at, website design and graphite portrait drawing (the eye avatar is a picture that I drew).

To help my supplement my income when things are slow I have taken menial jobs such as working at a local farmer's market bagging apples. This after working for 20 years as a computer programmer.

So when I hear all these people cry "We want healthcare, we want tax rebates, we want, we want, we want...", it makes me sick. If you want something go out and work for it. Do I have health care? No, but I don't want some government socialist form of it either. God has taken care of me and will continue to do so. When I have needed a doctor God has provided the means to pay for it.

So back to the topic at hand, I do find some good in this election if McCain gets elected and defeats either of the Democratic candidates.

Oh, and as to missions, I agree with your point on supporting them so they can go out and meet the needs of the world.

Organizations like The Red Cross, The Salvation Army, World Vision, Samaritans Purse, Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon and others have done more for this world in the name of Christ than our government ever has or ever will.



tracydolls -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 8:04:36 PM)

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What about You Tracy. Do you need that make up and those earings?


don't wear makeup or earrings. made a choices that I would not buy diamonds from theives.

quote:

What about a change of cloths? Do you need two outfits?


Most come from second hand stores, believe me my grown daughters are always trying to buy me clothes, don't believe anyone should pay for name brand clothes, made for $2 in China and then pay $200. Never have, even before I got saved.

quote:

Maybe God is blessing some people. Are you saying it's wrong form them to enjoy what God has blessed them with?


I agree, God does bless some people, but I don't think people that are into predatory lending are it.

quote:

Do you have more than one pillow?


quote:

You are trying to make people feel guilty for not being broke.


No, I'm not talking about hard working people that make $70,000 a year, I'm talking about the 10 million paid to ceo's. I think we should pay teachers better than basketball players, I thought it crazy to pay someone 100 million dollars and teachers have to go on strike to get one dollar more.

quote:

If God blesses someone with wealth. They thank God for that wealth and use it in the way "HE" (not you) say to use it who are you to tell them they are wrong? Who are you to judge them when you yourself have things you don't need.


Do you know how much junk people just throwaway? When it can be given to people. I do not buy a house bigger than I need, my car is 1994. I don't believe most of the wealthy people are Christians. Most of this wealth is made wrongly. I'm not judging, iIsimply do NOT believe that God would have us to not feed the poor and buy junk tha is expensive.


I believe the whole bible! people do prosper. But c'mon you support some of this? I'm talking about millions of dollars being wasted.

PW31, I'm not talking about hardworking people, my hubby works hard now, he deserves every dime, is it millions, NO. I worked hard in the School district chasing kids, even after I broke my leg.


Having an extra pillow does not compare to someone having 10 mansions and 38 million dollar stamps.



tracydolls -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/17/2008 11:51:30 PM)

quote:

Increasing the taxes of people who make more money because they are the big bad rich makes them a little angry thus causing them to give grudgingly and under compulsion. So when you start quoting God's word about giving make sure you take it in context with other scripture.


You think I care that a man worth millions gets angry, I get angry everytime I see Christian Childrens' Fund begging for 27 cents a day. I get angry everytime I see those children, with no clean water, knowing that it costs a diamond ring to build a well.

I don't care if they give grudgingly, I say snatch out of their greedy paws this is what Gov't should do!

I can quote over 100's of Scripture that say give to the poor. The most important one, the one I love, is that no matter how skinny that Camel gets, he cannot get thru the eye of a needle!!!



GregandJenny -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/18/2008 12:24:44 AM)

quote:

I can quote over 100's of Scripture that say give to the poor. The most important one, the one I love, is that no matter how skinny that Camel gets, he cannot get thru the eye of a needle!!!



The bible also says give cheerfully. Just because people don't feel to give to the needy children afar off doesn't give us the right to snatch it out of their hands. That is not the Love of God.


I agree, we need to take care of the poor. it's not always that simple. For instance, I donate alot of good stuff to a local thrift store. Unfortunately due to heath reasons and state laws they don't accept everything. The same goes for places donating or accepting already prepared and cooked foods. When this happens many people get discouraged because now it has become a hassle to help because they need to do more work to do so.

G



P31W -> RE: The 2008 Campaign Is Disappointing (4/18/2008 8:01:48 AM)

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I don't believe most of the wealthy people are Christians.


I want you to pick up a copy of the book "The Millionaire Next Door".

You "think" some people are wealthy when in reality the are in debt up to their eyeballs.

You "think" some of your very own neighbors are working level people. But they are extremely wealthy.

Because MOST wealthy people in this country live well below their means they are able to "give away' more money than most people make in a year. You cannot spot those multi-millionaires because they don't put value in material things. They put their value in growing their business so that people may have good jobs and helping those who cannot help themselves.

When you tax those people who God has richly blessed and whom he may have given the spiritural gift of Giving to you are going to be helping to tread into territory where God is moving to accomplish His Will in a way that the individual or the government is not glorified rather God himself is glorified.

Most wealthy people in this country are first generation. They live in a modest home that is paid for and have been living in that home for 20 years. They don't drive new cars rather they drive used. They don't take exotic trips rather they are active in the local PTA and support the local highschool football team. They do not earn seven digit incomes and it has taken them many years of living below their means inorder to build their wealth. Most of the wives say they clip coupons and look for bargans. Most have been married to only one spouse. Most are men whose wifes are.... DIG THIS....either homemakers or school teachers.

What I have just reported are facts.

Now if you ask me if I believe American as a hole is materialistic. My answer would be YES> but that has NOTHING to do with how much money a person earns. That has to do with their heart. Something that higher taxes will not solve. Instead it will only cause some people to fire their employees, stop giving to chairty and go to the house because it's not worth "their time" to work so hard to support people whom they don't have a conviction to support.

My conviction is to obey the great commission. That means I don't give water to the poor FIRST rather I give them a bible and a drink of water. Something the government will NEVER do.

My second conviction from God is to help struggling people here in the USA who are needing help going from one level of living to the next. The government is not concerned with this either. Nor do they have the "personal touch" that I have so that I can teach them "God's Way of Handing His Resources and Money". The government will NEVER teach people 'God's Way" of doing things.



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