Grace and Brain Problems

Grace and Brain Problems (Full Version)

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TMeeks -> Grace and Brain Problems (4/12/2008 10:21:20 PM)
In another Christian forum I've been talking with a person that has congential brain abnormalities that show up as very strange behaviour that no Christian would condone. This person has called on Jesus Christ to save them and loves the Lord when the medications are working correctly. But, they are tormented by the things they think seemingly randomly. In the past, I would have questioned the reality of their Christian commitment. But, I have a completely different view now. And, this new view is based on a new amazement at the source of salvation in the Christian faith when compared to all others belief systems. If any of the other religious systems were true, a person with these kinds of congenital brain issues would never be able to be saved for their 'works' (words) would damn them. But, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came up with the most compassionate salvation criteria that could have been devised. By basing salvation on the righteousness of Jesus and not the the righteousness of man, even those with devastating brain abnormalities that lead them to think and say inappropriate things can be saved. It is THE most compassionate salvation system to mentally ill individuals. Now, these people still are obligated to do what they can to walk in their Christian life in a holy and pure way. By this, I mean that they need to be willing to seek help and do whatever they can to have their symptoms relieved. Moreover, they still have the obligation to obey God's command to transform their minds to the best they can by being willing to yeild to the Holy Spirit's control. But, I am so thankful that God chose to save us by HIS grace and not our abilities.

colliefan -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/12/2008 10:34:18 PM)
quote: Moreover, they still have the obligation to obey God's command to transform their minds to the best they can by being willing to yeild to the Holy Spirit's control. Thankfully, God has given us medicine that can help with malfunctions in the brains wiring problems thereby helping that individual to yield to the HS control. But isn't there a mental health thread where this issue should be discussed?

called2valor -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 4:23:12 AM)
I think this thread should stay right here, personally, because that is one thing that not only Christians, but the rest of the "normal" population in general does: pushes such things into some special little place for "mental health issues". You cannot avoid persons with organic brain illnesses, mental health problems or whatever. It touches too many lives and people in the church feel marginalized because of it, because it will be pushed aside or others won't want to deal with it on ITS terms, just their own. colliefan, calling such things "wiring problems" is immediately seeing the person as DEFECTIVE! To our standards, they may be defective, but to God, they are His child - nothing more or less. I don't see wires in anyone's head - might as well say they have a screw loose too! Many organic brain disorders, mood disorders, etc do not come with "defects" only. Medications are not magic and do not always help - every medication has side effects, some of which are more unpleasant than the original "illness". Take bipolar individuals, for example. There can be no doubt that there is something different than the average person in their organic brain structure and neurobiology. The mood, rapid thought processes and many other things associated with Bipolar "illness" can be tortuous to the one suffering it at times, but can also bring with it some of the highest literature and art and creativity in the world. It would be a fairly safe thing to say that these "crazies" have developed more of such portions of our culture than the "sane". We do not always see the blessing that comes with anything we call an illness, because we are looking from the perspective of what we believe is wholeness, not the whole individual we are dealing with. The point made by the OP is a magnificent one! If works-based religion were the real way to God, then you could count many, many people out automatically! ============= EDIT: Another point I would like to make is that assuming that medications patch everything up is a fallacy - masking is more like it. That is the same attitude that had people drugged into submission decades ago. Assuming that medications make it easier for someone to yield to the control to the Holy Spirit is also rejecting the idea that the person with an organic brain disorder is already in their own heart yielded to the Holy Spirit. Just because the brain doesn't always let the persons actions, feelings and thoughts mirror what is between them and God is again making it "works-based evidence" that they are yielded.)

cobblestone -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 4:59:43 AM)
If you really want to take this to a personal level I have been imprisoned b/c laws would have to be changed to accomadate someone thats diagnosed with a mental illness (since nothing else can explain an abnormal life) even tho they new it was right that the antiquatated system doesn't account for many things. bipolar=synapsis apparently shooting in different directions due to thinner mylon sheath. Thats differs from scysophrenia (sp) (which I'm not) in that a bi-polar all thoughts connect but the other doesnt The crime I committed was they charged me with being drunk when I wasn't

called2valor -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 5:58:31 AM)
Let's use an extreme example: A Schizophrenic is having a psychotic episode. They may possibly do things which may even be criminal according to the law. They may break a window in anger or beat someone up in fear, etc and are not completely in touch with what is going on in the environment because of what is going on with their brain. The electro-chemical reality is for a time over-riding what their usual behavior would be. Since they committed a crime, they may well be prosecuted. Let's say once the psychotic episode is over, the person suffering from Schizophrenia is deeply regretful of their behavior, did not intend it all and now, in a moment of clarity, looks back and sees that they were not even in touch with reality. When this person is not having a psychotic break they are a pleasant and innocuous person, causing no trouble whatsoever. They love people and God. They don't want to hurt anyone or cause trouble... yet sometimes their brain malfunctions. Is this person any less saved? Are they any less yielded to the Holy Spirit? Are they "bad" or are they just confused by their own brain at times? ------------------------- What is posted above is based on my own experiences working with people in Human Services for over 10 years. I could list many many more things about people that have all sorts of conditions from Severe Mental Retardation to unknown Organic Brain Disorders. People are people. We have to deal with them as they are. I love these people as people, not the "mentals" or "clients" or any such nonsense - I just try to be aware of their own personal condition. I didn't just do this as a job either, because for many years my own home also served as a place for those that needed Foster care that would not be able to get it from those who were not ready for the behaviors and the issues that these wonderful kids would bring with them. Can medication help some people at least some of the time? SURE! When it does help, that's great. But medication isn't the answer to everything. HOWEVER, if medication was what allowed one to yield to the Holy Spirit, then we need a med called: Goditall to give to unbelievers to allow them to yield to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes there is no final answer to what we call mental illness in this lifetime. Everyone is here for a reason and even those people that don't think and act like the mainstream of society are just as worthy in the sight of God. They just seem to get marginalized by the Church and society at large out of fear, ignorance and judgmentalism.

cobblestone -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 6:42:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cobblestone If you really want to take this to a personal level I have been imprisoned b/c laws would have to be changed to accomadate someone thats diagnosed with a mental illness (since nothing else can explain an abnormal life) even tho they new it was right that the antiquatated system doesn't account for many things. bipolar=synapsis apparently shooting in different directions due to thinner mylon sheath. Thats differs from scysophrenia (sp) (which I'm not) in that a bi-polar all thoughts connect but the other doesnt The crime I committed was they charged me with being drunk when I wasn't When I fought the wrongful conviction thet tried to shame me into accepting their conviction (they had no breathalizer etc) by accepting a milder sentence but I refuse so they threw me into Okalla Prison for a DWI They would have to say the officer made a mistake and they wouldn't do that b/c it would have set a president case. The courts are full of president setting cases in which the people are court ordered not to talk to the media or all their children will be taken from them etc. It can't be a bury your head in the sand issue for the public. The courts need to change. I'm not talking about out of your mind insidences like the one above but the injuctices that are the system

maddog4god -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 7:09:05 AM)
You know technically I have "mental health issues" - having been raised by wolves, my wiring is very messed up - I too have wondered why God has not "fixed" me. I have recently been in intensive therapy and some things have gotten much worse in my thought life. My thought life and real life are two seperate issues. I do not act on my thoughts, however I have been a christian for twenty years and now the desire to please God is greater then the desire to appease my flesh. I don't think someone who is not wired "wrong" can understand what it is like, truly and I say that with the as much gentleness as possible. I don't believe you can understand the torment or the terror. The truth is God knows where we are (wiring wise) and since his word says repeatedly that we have a sound mind. He does not dangle things in front of us to tease us nor does he set us up to fail by giving us impossible goals. If his word says it, then I shall have it, if not here, then in heaven, but I believe God can and will give me what he says it will however be in his time.

Closie -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 8:27:29 AM)
Tourette's syndrome is a brain disorder. It doesn't come under mental health but it causes tics, behavior problems and sometimes strange sounds - including profanity - to out of the person's mouth. I'm obese. I ate a bag of cookies yesterday while bemoaning my weight gain. I cry daily that I look like I do. That doesn't come under a mental illness as defined in DSM-IV. But I know the origins and I know that I serve a God who will - through physicians no doubt - get me through this illness. I won't begrudge anyone seeking physician's help for the illnesses.

TMeeks -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 1:46:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan quote: Moreover, they still have the obligation to obey God's command to transform their minds to the best they can by being willing to yeild to the Holy Spirit's control. Thankfully, God has given us medicine that can help with malfunctions in the brains wiring problems thereby helping that individual to yield to the HS control. But isn't there a mental health thread where this issue should be discussed? No, this isn't really about mental health. It's about the uniqueness of the Grace of God as it relates to all people and, in particular, those that other religions would confine to the be doomed. It's about the expansiveness, kindness and compassion of God. What I hope is focused on here is the marvelous reality that God pre-ordained, before the first human was ever created, that the way he would fix (slavation) what he knew was going to be broken (fall) was to rest completely on His righteousness and of His Only Begotten Son to be made sin for us and to rise above that sin victoriously. The grace of God transcends the human condition and does not depend, in the least, on that condition except in our acceptance of His sacrifice. Think about the wonderful ramifications of this as it relates to either an eternity with God or an eternity doomed for those suffering from the conditions and symptoms we call 'mental illness'. GRACE. A simple word with profound ramifications.

delete123 -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 2:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan quote: Moreover, they still have the obligation to obey God's command to transform their minds to the best they can by being willing to yeild to the Holy Spirit's control. Thankfully, God has given us medicine that can help with malfunctions in the brains wiring problems thereby helping that individual to yield to the HS control. But isn't there a mental health thread where this issue should be discussed? And some people want to know why others do not attend church. Statements like this shows how the world sinks into them. Yup I'll give you the broom so you can brush off this thread. TMeeks~ Yes it is amazing how the brain functions. I have dealt with many people with disorders. Yet many like some posters, do not understand and turn away considering them misfits. When I worked in a hospital (specific care) they added a physch ward on two levels. I was truly amazed at how many refused or swept their duties under the carpet and would not go to that "section" of the hospital. Well I treat every person the same, they put their pants on like me. One leg at a time and deserve to be treated with the same respect. I've been dealing with recently with brain abnormalities, which could be for many reasons. I am a survivor of spinal menegitis, I've had many blows to my head. (1 during an abusive relationship in which the then b/f cracked my skull and almost broke my ear drum.) Not to mention other abuses that I have suffered from. It's unfortunate that others consider folks with disorders as not normal. For what is normal anyways? normal is how the world perceives it. CRH

maddog4god -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 3:50:05 PM)
I don't consider myself a misfit nor do I feel like one. I happen to know that God made me a salmon and that's okay - I see things that others miss and I feel like that is a gift. I don't think some people get a greater measure of grace - the difference lies in the judgement from the throne - God understands where we come from, where we need to go and what we need to get there - that is the only difference. If you have no issues and you are 'wired rightly' the praise God - but do not judge anyone who isn't. You have no idea of the sacrifices and what not the person has made to get there.

rcjames -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 3:55:44 PM)
What would Jesus do. In the New Testament when Jesus ran across folks that had no control or done really crazy things; He cast the devil out of them. You know the demoniac in the garden, the boy throwing himself into fire, etc. Thsnks RC

called2valor -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 7:16:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames What would Jesus do. In the New Testament when Jesus ran across folks that had no control or done really crazy things; He cast the devil out of them. You know the demoniac in the garden, the boy throwing himself into fire, etc. Thsnks RC Demonization and biology are very different. If we were Jesus we would be able to cure everything: blindness and even death, right here and now! To infer that all behavior is related to demons is to once again say that it is because all of these people have a devil or some such nonsense. For example, people with severe mental retardation that I have know say or do some things that are very bizarre by the average person's standards... am I to cast the devil out of them? If your idea is correct you should be going around casting demons out of autistic kids, the mentally retarded, or anyone that exhibited any behaviors that were not the norm. It is a shame that "sane" people get away with their murders and adulteries and just "come to the Lord", but those with organic brain disorders and other illnesses are told the devil is working in them. Disgusting

Liveloved -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 7:27:30 PM)
quote: But, I am so thankful that God chose to save us by HIS grace and not our abilities. Amen and amen! As one who just identified myself with Jacob (you know, the OT Jacob, the trickster, conniver, the no way could HE be God's man, Jacob!), I say I am very thankful that it is His grace that saves. It is not my ability. It is nothing about me at all. It is all about Him. Grace, grace, God's grace. Grace that is GREATER than all my sin.[:)]

maddog4god -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 8:45:44 PM)
quote: What would Jesus do. In the New Testament when Jesus ran across folks that had no control or done really crazy things; He cast the devil out of them. You know the demoniac in the garden, the boy throwing himself into fire, etc. Thsnks RC You just did NOT say this. You HAVE to be kidding me. The truth is that the person I most identify with is the demoniac - you know why? I am not possessed at all nor have I been - the truth is that all I need is for Jesus to take one step in my direction to be healed - that's all - no one but God can change me - I know this. For you to imply that mental/neurological issues (all of them) are demon posession is insulting and shows that you may be ignorant in regard to REAL issues that are mental/physical in nature. What I really want to say to you is how dare you make this implication when you have NO clue how hard I've worked to get to where I am from where I started from, but you wouldn't receive that. Not all mental illnesses are demonic in nature - just the same as there is not a demon lurking behind every sin.

cobblestone -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 8:51:14 PM)
Aren't diseases also said to be demon caused, is that scriptural?, I'm not sure, but Jesus cast bodily dis-ease out in the same way He cast out mind dis-ease

TMeeks -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:09:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames What would Jesus do. In the New Testament when Jesus ran across folks that had no control or done really crazy things; He cast the devil out of them. You know the demoniac in the garden, the boy throwing himself into fire, etc. Thsnks RC I knew somebody would bring this up. Jesus cast demons out of people that had demons. Jesus KNEW which people had demons. But, it's very telling that casting out of demons seems to have disappeared after Acts 19. For a brief period of time in Acts, up to the events in Chapter 19, we have these verses. First, there was something very special about Peter in Acts 5. Acts 5:15-16 15 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed. I don't see many people able to heal anyone with their shadow these days. Then there was Philip in Acts 8. Acts 8:6-8 6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. 7 With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed. 8 So there was great joy in that city. This doesn't give us any clue as to how these demons came out; but, we do know that those with demons were NOT believers before their deliverence. Then there was Paul. He also had a special gift. Acts 19:11-12 11 God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. But, you know something. Paul never writes about casting out demons in his epistles. And, did you notice that in all of the above verses there was a distinction between illness and evil spirits. So, what about anyone else that tried to cast out demons? We only have one single reference and that didn't turn out so well. Acts 19:13-20 13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding. Wow! The ones casting out demons weren't the disciples! They were people posing as believers!!! But, even more telling, for people that want to follow true Biblical principles, these next few verses are the ONLY ones, after Acts 19, where demons are even mentioned. Ro 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 1Co 10:20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 1Co 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 1Ti 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. That's it. The sum total of verses relating to spirits and demons. And, I repeat, Jesus KNEW who had demons and who did not. And, in all the rest of the Bible not even a handful are said to have cast out demons. Certainly it is never mentioned that any of the converts to Christianity had that power. But, there was this one group that Jesus warned us about... Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

oldmethuselah -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:27:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: called2valor quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames What would Jesus do. In the New Testament when Jesus ran across folks that had no control or done really crazy things; He cast the devil out of them. You know the demoniac in the garden, the boy throwing himself into fire, etc. Thsnks RC Demonization and biology are very different. If we were Jesus we would be able to cure everything: blindness and even death, right here and now! To infer that all behavior is related to demons is to once again say that it is because all of these people have a devil or some such nonsense. For example, people with severe mental retardation that I have know say or do some things that are very bizarre by the average person's standards... am I to cast the devil out of them? If your idea is correct you should be going around casting demons out of autistic kids, the mentally retarded, or anyone that exhibited any behaviors that were not the norm. It is a shame that "sane" people get away with their murders and adulteries and just "come to the Lord", but those with organic brain disorders and other illnesses are told the devil is working in them. Disgusting You certainly seem to favour the rationalist approach to mental aberrations. Whereas there ARE cases where people too easily take the "demon" approach to things aberrant, it would be EQUAL folly to conclude that all things can be explained by a rationalist. For example we worked with missionary doctors who dispense anti-biotics, set broken limbs, and carry out other medical procedures that - except for the fact they don't charge a bill - would be fully recognized by their North American colleagues, HOWEVER, when One such physician relates the following story, you would be wise to give it some credence and NOT jump on the rationalist band wagon too quickly... here it is (paraphrased since the telling took place some 30 years ago when I worked with the African mission) "While doing my regular medical rounds, I heard of a nine year old girl who seemed to be behaving in very odd, self destructive behaviours... upon arriving at the villiage, I visited the girl, who was clearly delirious and thrashing about in the little hut she was being held in....after ascertaining no physical reason for this behaviour, I began to ask questions about when and where the attacks had begun etc.. I also noticed she was wearing a little leather pouch around her neck and asked what it was...I was told that up to age 5 she had been very poorly, and her parents had "got a cure" from a local "ju ju" man, who said she would be well if she never removed the pouch from around her neck...she improved immediately and had never been sick at all till just a few weeks ago when she started having these frightful fits...I prayed about this and began to suspect that the pouch had something to do with the present illness... I insisted, against much opposition, that the pouch be removed (but as the parents were desperate, they agreed)...the girls thrashings stopped as soon as the pouch was removed...and upon examination, the only thing it contained was a written scrap of paper, which being loosely translated, read, "preserve this child's body until her soul is safely in hell"... the girl has since returned to health and is about to celebrate her twelfth birthday." Now if it were not an account related to us, by someone who clearly was not a looney tune, I would have discounted it... but I present it here to illustrate that there is such a thing as an UNDERUSE of satanic explanations, quite as much as there is an OVERUSE from other quarters.

LivingParadox -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:28:32 PM)
I believe there are conditions that are truly biological and ultimately God will be the judge in these case. Thankfully God is both a just and merciful. I have no doubt God knows the heart in these instances whether bi-polar or whatever. In fact, as sad as the event was where a mom who had a psychotic break drowned her 5 kids..even though there was a mob who wanted her punished -- I knew from experience of a mentally ill mom that the act wasn't her -- she wouldn't have done it without the break from reality. With that said, while talking grace, in pragmatic terms if someone with a brain disorder harms, and I mean really harms another person should we be so quick to write it off? Are they allowed to harm so one else? Is the victim heard or does the disability take precendence? Do we allow this for those who are alcoholic that kills someone while driving under the influence, some one who strikes someone with anger management issues, do we let off a pyscho-path because they are wired differently? There are legitamite brain disorders but how does this play out?

cobblestone -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:35:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maddog4god quote: What would Jesus do. In the New Testament when Jesus ran across folks that had no control or done really crazy things; He cast the devil out of them. You know the demoniac in the garden, the boy throwing himself into fire, etc. Thsnks RC You just did NOT say this. You HAVE to be kidding me. The truth is that the person I most identify with is the demoniac - you know why? I am not possessed at all nor have I been - the truth is that all I need is for Jesus to take one step in my direction to be healed - that's all - no one but God can change me - I know this. For you to imply that mental/neurological issues (all of them) are demon posession is insulting and shows that you may be ignorant in regard to REAL issues that are mental/physical in nature. What I really want to say to you is how dare you make this implication when you have NO clue how hard I've worked to get to where I am from where I started from, but you wouldn't receive that. Not all mental illnesses are demonic in nature - just the same as there is not a demon lurking behind every sin. Sorry for posting so fast, I didn't realize the post would get buried so fast [8\|]

cobblestone -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:39:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah quote: ORIGINAL: called2valor quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames What would Jesus do. In the New Testament when Jesus ran across folks that had no control or done really crazy things; He cast the devil out of them. You know the demoniac in the garden, the boy throwing himself into fire, etc. Thsnks RC Demonization and biology are very different. If we were Jesus we would be able to cure everything: blindness and even death, right here and now! To infer that all behavior is related to demons is to once again say that it is because all of these people have a devil or some such nonsense. For example, people with severe mental retardation that I have know say or do some things that are very bizarre by the average person's standards... am I to cast the devil out of them? If your idea is correct you should be going around casting demons out of autistic kids, the mentally retarded, or anyone that exhibited any behaviors that were not the norm. It is a shame that "sane" people get away with their murders and adulteries and just "come to the Lord", but those with organic brain disorders and other illnesses are told the devil is working in them. Disgusting You certainly seem to favour the rationalist approach to mental aberrations. Whereas there ARE cases where people too easily take the "demon" approach to things aberrant, it would be EQUAL folly to conclude that all things can be explained by a rationalist. For example we worked with missionary doctors who dispense anti-biotics, set broken limbs, and carry out other medical procedures that - except for the fact they don't charge a bill - would be fully recognized by their North American colleagues, HOWEVER, when One such physician relates the following story, you would be wise to give it some credence and NOT jump on the rationalist band wagon too quickly... here it is (paraphrased since the telling took place some 30 years ago when I worked with the African mission) "While doing my regular medical rounds, I heard of a nine year old girl who seemed to be behaving in very odd, self destructive behaviours... upon arriving at the villiage, I visited the girl, who was clearly delirious and thrashing about in the little hut she was being held in....after ascertaining no physical reason for this behaviour, I began to ask questions about when and where the attacks had begun etc.. I also noticed she was wearing a little leather pouch around her neck and asked what it was...I was told that up to age 5 she had been very poorly, and her parents had "got a cure" from a local "ju ju" man, who said she would be well if she never removed the pouch from around her neck...she improved immediately and had never been sick at all till just a few weeks ago when she started having these frightful fits...I prayed about this and began to suspect that the pouch had something to do with the present illness... I insisted, against much opposition, that the pouch be removed (but as the parents were desperate, they agreed)...the girls thrashings stopped as soon as the pouch was removed...and upon examination, the only thing it contained was a written scrap of paper, which being loosely translated, read, "preserve this child's body until her soul is safely in hell"... the girl has since returned to health and is about to celebrate her twelfth birthday." Now if it were not an account related to us, by someone who clearly was not a looney tune, I would have discounted it... but I present it here to illustrate that there is such a thing as an UNDERUSE of satanic explanations, quite as much as there is an OVERUSE from other quarters. Would you call that a case of zombism? or vodo? I don't see the correlation

TMeeks -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:45:49 PM)
When we can use a medical device that scans a brain's activity levels and shows areas of no level at all or extremely high levels of activity, then we have proof positive that there is a PHYSICAL issue. Prior to our having these tools, I can understand some not being able to accept the reality of physical causes for certain types of behaviours. These days there is no excuse but willful ignorance. This thread is not going to be hi-jacked by ignorance... especially those purporting to LIMIT what Jesus would do when they have no Biblical authority for doing so. I have no doubt that there are people who are demon possessed. And, if Jesus were to come across them he would cast out the demon. But, he would ONLY do so in those cases of TRUE demon possession. If he had come across a person that was brain damaged and wanted to show his healing power he would have healed the brain damage without connecting it to demon possession. Again, this thread is about the abundant mercies of Jesus Christ that decided that HE should pay the price for sin so that HIS righteousness and not ours is the purchase of our salvation. I grew up so far back in the country that we didn't have indoor toilets, running water or electricity. But, I don't know HOW far back into the country you have to go to not understand the difference between physical brain imparments and demons. [:o] But, on the other hand, I do recall that some of that lightnin' had a good bit of lead in it!!! [:D][:D]

cobblestone -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:54:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TMeeks In another Christian forum I've been talking with a person that has congential brain abnormalities that show up as very strange behaviour that no Christian would condone. This person has called on Jesus Christ to save them and loves the Lord when the medications are working correctly. But, they are tormented by the things they think seemingly randomly. In the past, I would have questioned the reality of their Christian commitment. But, I have a completely different view now. And, this new view is based on a new amazement at the source of salvation in the Christian faith when compared to all others belief systems. If any of the other religious systems were true, a person with these kinds of congenital brain issues would never be able to be saved for their 'works' (words) would damn them. But, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came up with the most compassionate salvation criteria that could have been devised. By basing salvation on the righteousness of Jesus and not the the righteousness of man, even those with devastating brain abnormalities that lead them to think and say inappropriate things can be saved. It is THE most compassionate salvation system to mentally ill individuals. Now, these people still are obligated to do what they can to walk in their Christian life in a holy and pure way. By this, I mean that they need to be willing to seek help and do whatever they can to have their symptoms relieved. Moreover, they still have the obligation to obey God's command to transform their minds to the best they can by being willing to yeild to the Holy Spirit's control. But, I am so thankful that God chose to save us by HIS grace and not our abilities. No one is trying to highjack your thread. It's about mental illness according to the OP and grace. We know what grace is but if mental illness can't be defined to what it is or isn't then you are only presenting your version and its not a discussion but a lecture.

MyCatSmokey2006 -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:55:06 PM)
As a person who suffers from bipolar disorder, I can tell you that there are times when I felt that I wasn't responsible for my actions. For instance, I believed that the devil was forcing negative thoughts into my head against my will. I also felt condemned everytime I was depressed, thinking I was headed to hell because I didn't feel close to God at every moment of the day. I'm aware that these types of thoughts are from the devil, so I'm learning to renew my mind with God's Word. Medication helps me follow God by correcting the chemical imbalances that cause the symptons I suffer with my illness. Mental illness is like any other medical condition. It is a disease of the brain and can be treated successfully with medication in most individuals. Therapy helps too. Not all mental illness is demonic in nature, even if someone's behavior seems like it.

TMeeks -> RE: Grace and Brain Problems (4/13/2008 9:56:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah but I present it here to illustrate that there is such a thing as an UNDERUSE of satanic explanations, quite as much as there is an OVERUSE from other quarters. Absoluteley. I am friends with Dawsons, missionaries to the Yanomamo Tribe. The book "Spirit of the Rain Forest", the story of Chief Shoefoot, dramatically illustrates demonic activity. But, this is not a thread in which to discuss demonology. It is a thread to discuss the marvelous grace of Jesus to those with physical and chemical brain issues. Let's keep it there.

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