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ORIGINAL: LivingParadox

I believe there are conditions that are truly biological and ultimately God will be the judge in these case. Thankfully God is both a just and merciful. I have no doubt God knows the heart in these instances whether bi-polar or whatever. In fact, as sad as the event was where a mom who had a psychotic break drowned her 5 kids..even though there was a mob who wanted her punished -- I knew from experience of a mentally ill mom that the act wasn't her -- she wouldn't have done it without the break from reality.

With that said, while talking grace, in pragmatic terms if someone with a brain disorder harms, and I mean really harms another person should we be so quick to write it off? Are they allowed to harm so one else? Is the victim heard or does the disability take precendence? Do we allow this for those who are alcoholic that kills someone while driving under the influence, some one who strikes someone with anger management issues, do we let off a pyscho-path because they are wired differently?

There are legitamite brain disorders but how does this play out?

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It is a thread to discuss the marvelous grace of Jesus to those with physical and chemical brain issues. Let's keep it there.

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ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006

As a person who suffers from bipolar disorder, I can tell you that there are times when I felt that I wasn't responsible for my actions. For instance, I believed that the devil was forcing negative thoughts into my head against my will. I also felt condemned everytime I was depressed, thinking I was headed to hell because I didn't feel close to God at every moment of the day. I'm aware that these types of thoughts are from the devil, so I'm learning to renew my mind with God's Word. Medication helps me follow God by correcting the chemical imbalances that cause the symptons I suffer with my illness.

Mental illness is like any other medical condition. It is a disease of the brain and can be treated successfully with medication in most individuals. Therapy helps too. Not all mental illness is demonic in nature, even if someone's behavior seems like it.

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If there is a problem in any of these layers then it is still the responsibility of the person (if they can at all) to find the root cause and commit to a healing course of action. God never excuses negative or sinful actions. And, He certainly wants ALL of His children to walk according to the Scriptures. But, in EVERY case, His Grace is bigger than their failures. And, their failures don't doom them to a lifetime of failure.

We aren't talking about relieving people of their responsibility. We are talking about redeeming people and giving them hope by caring about them where they are and helping them to find both spiritual, emotional and medical resources to live the abundant life of Love, Joy and Peace that God wants for them.

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ORIGINAL: maddog4god

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If there is a problem in any of these layers then it is still the responsibility of the person (if they can at all) to find the root cause and commit to a healing course of action. God never excuses negative or sinful actions. And, He certainly wants ALL of His children to walk according to the Scriptures. But, in EVERY case, His Grace is bigger than their failures. And, their failures don't doom them to a lifetime of failure.

We aren't talking about relieving people of their responsibility. We are talking about redeeming people and giving them hope by caring about them where they are and helping them to find both spiritual, emotional and medical resources to live the abundant life of Love, Joy and Peace that God wants for them.

This "sounds" (may be due to the medium) very presumptious - I've had numerous counselors - secular and christian who were of very little help - some (even christian) wanted to pat me on the head and tell me I was as good as it was going to get.

Was I willing to change my behavior, heart and thought life to conform to God? Absolutely

Was I successful? Nope not really

I managed to shift issues around "enough" to live a mostly victorious life but it was rife with frustrations with myself and God. Why won't you heal me????

Note: My issues are neither neurological nor chemical - though recent studies have shown that massive severe abuse due change the workings of the brain.

I've made tremendous strides in the last six weeks. HUGE even.

how?

I have found safe people with whom I can be honest. My issues flared when dealing with a family who has a child that has been similiarly abused. It sent me into a tail spin of anxiety, compulsions, etc. - actually issues I was shocked to find that I actually had after all this time.

I was able to say - I feel out of control. I can not breath. I want to do this and this and this even though I know it would be a sin.

These people did not lecture me about sin - they were patient and gave me scriptures and writing assignments and took time out of the busy busy lives to help.

They don't tell me to suck it up.

They don't suggest I am demonized.

They have taken the time to be knowledgeable about what I am dealing with.

It has been an amzing process for me - truly a miracle thing.

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ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah

You certainly seem to favour the rationalist approach to mental aberrations.

Whereas there ARE cases where people too easily take the "demon" approach to things aberrant, it would be EQUAL folly to conclude that all things can be explained by a rationalist.

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ORIGINAL: TMeeks

If there is a problem in any of these layers then it is still the responsibility of the person (if they can at all) to find the root cause and commit to a healing course of action.

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These people did not lecture me about sin - they were patient and gave me scriptures and writing assignments and took time out of the busy busy lives to help.

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I grew up so far back in the country that we didn't have indoor toilets, running water or electricity.

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Perhaps I don't understand the disconnect. It seems to me that what I wrote is exactly what you described for yourself

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ORIGINAL: Liveloved

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I grew up so far back in the country that we didn't have indoor toilets, running water or electricity.

HOW OLD IS THIS????

. . . . . I think you hijacked your own thread by revealing this, TMeeks!

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ORIGINAL: Liveloved

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I grew up so far back in the country that we didn't have indoor toilets, running water or electricity.

HOW OLD IS THIS????

. . . . . I think you hijacked your own thread by revealing this, TMeeks!

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ORIGINAL: Row1

"as TMeeks said, Jesus did the same, casting them out where He was aware they existed."

-I don't think this is true - I mean the 'wherever' part.

A lot of this is great discussion.
But I believe it is off-track to focus upon Jesus' work healing illness and casting out demons, and saying his ministry while on earth was to heal any sick person he came across, and to cast out any demon he detected.

Jesus did not show up on earth to health the sick.

Yes, I will boldly repeat this:

Jesus did not show up on earth to health the sick.

Whenever he cast out demons or healed the sick, he had a different purpose: NOT to reduce misery, or save anyone around from demons, but to show the everyday people (not the ruling people) who he was, and to fulfill prophecy.

It is quite clear that there were many sick people around who were not healed by Jesus.

I could write a whole bunch on this, but let me give one example, and then you can just read through your own Bible to find many more: John 5:1. There were always many people by this pool, hoping to be healed. Jesus heals one of them. Not all of them. One of them.

We actually don't know if Jesus went on to heal all or whether he did not. But, it says he healed this one.

Why only one, and why this man? We don't know. We can make some guesses. 1. many people recognized this lame guy, so seeing him walk served to spread the word abt the Messiah among the every day people a little more. 2. in his recovery, he provoked negative attention for working on the Sabbath - carrying his mat - thus drawing a certain kind of attention from the Jewish authorities, with this episode possibly being one of many like this that lead to the fulfillment of the prophecies by the crucifixion.

Another: Lazarus is resurrected. Why not at least one other person in that graveyard? Surely there was someone else who had also been dead at least 4 days, and had loving family in mourning.

Well, this may or may not have happened. We don't know. But as much as we know is that Jesus brought Lazarus back, with no indication that he went on to bring anyone else back.

So, in the spirit of the original post, I agree that it is great that, although we are imperfect, and can have a thorn in our side all of our life, nonetheless we can accept the gift of God - salvation.

I believe that my comment is very well founded, and that we should maybe focus less on the idea that if you have enough faith, you will be healed - that is just not true. Jesus did heal, but didn't heal every ill person in the vicinity while he was walking around on earth during his earthly ministry. He healed to show he had power over illness. He cast out demons in some cases to show he had power over demons. He resurrected a couple people to show hhe had power over life and death. These were examples illustrating to certain people in certain settings who he was. The fact that he could do these things had been prophesied, and so my view is yes he cared and cares about any person that ever lived, but he healed as part of what his Father had planned - fulfilling prohecy and whatever else his Father directed him to do.

I want to make a clear case, but I don't really want to be offensive - so please don't take my firm wording as rough tone - I am just trying to speak clearly and get closer to the truth. Plus, I appreciate any input on my view here. THANKS!

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ORIGINAL: BibleL7

TMeeks Good OP

Yes it is wonderful that our God cares enough that He made Salvation free and something that we can not work for. We cant earn it and we cant keep it. It is all His work all we can do is Believe in Him and Trust in Him and Obey Him willingly and even the ability to do that comes from Him thanks to the Holy Spirit.

As to the posters who may disagree about Mental Illness and demons, I can only say as one who was delivered from a demon possession and suffers from mental illness some times those are a mixture sometimes one or the other and the Lord is so good that He will send into our lives those who are given the ability to recognize the difference and help in the way that is needed. As to the healing He heals those which will GLORIFY the Father in being healed. Many GLORIFY the Father even more in not being healed. Others GLORIFY the Father in being partly healed or healed over a long period of time. This also would answer as to why question was not about upsetting rulers or witnessing to multitude for He more than upset the rulers without ever healing or supposed breaking of Sabbath rules, for His teaching and rebuking them surely covered that the Healing on a Sabbath may have added to it but not substantially. And of course we may not always realize how anything will Glorify the Father, Yet God knows how it does.

Another example I will share is our church's Usher, he can barely communicate verbally and has limited social abilities and limited understanding, But the Lord saved him and is Glorified in the way he shows love more so than any Normal person. I have spent a number of years living with mentally ill and mentally retarded and mentally handicapped people who were saved by His grace. This I will say, I would much prefer to hang out with others who are missing a few screws or have a few loose screws than those who are normal. For those who are not normal sometimes show His love and grace much better cause people know it is God in us.

However there is one cautionary I feel I must state particularly to those who have been delivered from addictions particularly of drugs and alcohol, for those who are mentally ill and are helped by medications which they may have to take for the rest of their lives, PLEASE do not tell them that they lack faith to be healed or that they should trust the Lord and not take Meds cause He will heal particularly when you dont know if that is the case. I have seen this do so much harm and sometimes the Lord is better Glorified by not healing that aspect for they are witnesses to Doctors and counselors that are helping them as well as others whom they will see in visits to hospitals and clinics. I have seen many miracles of those afflicted working on those who are professionals and help givers. The Lord can work mightily through those whom we consider disadvantaged and it ends up saving many that would otherwise not be reached by His love.

Yes TMeeks we do serve a wonderful God who's Grace is so amazing and so awesome when we have a right relation with Him that no RELIGION will ever do. And it is sooooooo awesome that even those who are not capable of having a mind to be saved can be saved by His amazing Grace.

Just the opinion of a small town preacher who is blessed to 'Coo Coo" in words of our Usher

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven

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ORIGINAL: TMeeks

If there is a problem in any of these layers then it is still the responsibility of the person (if they can at all) to find the root cause and commit to a healing course of action.

But, isn't this exactly the problem? That a person with mental illness, by definition, is not thinking properly? How can they be responsible? How can they make proper decisions? When the processes are not functioning properly?

It is the same as it is for children who die before the age of awareness, is it not? The Bible does not speak clearly to these circumstances, but it does speak clearly as to Who our God is.

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ORIGINAL: TMeeks

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven

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ORIGINAL: TMeeks

If there is a problem in any of these layers then it is still the responsibility of the person (if they can at all) to find the root cause and commit to a healing course of action.

But, isn't this exactly the problem? That a person with mental illness, by definition, is not thinking properly? How can they be responsible? How can they make proper decisions? When the processes are not functioning properly?

It is the same as it is for children who die before the age of awareness, is it not? The Bible does not speak clearly to these circumstances, but it does speak clearly as to Who our God is.

That may be true of some conditions. But, the area of physical/chemical conditions is enormously broad. For instance, research has shown that person with issues in the cingulate area of the brain are prone to bursts of intense anger. Anyone that has these unexplained bursts of anger still has a responsibility to try to explore all the options that might lead to a healing of those symptoms. We didn't have many options before. But, now their search for reasson for those outbursts can even be a scan of their brain to pick up whether it has a physical foundation. And, this might show that there is NO evidence of a physical source. It works both ways.

But, as much as possible, we are called to take responsibility for seeking healing, Spiritually, emotionally and physically. Those who have completely lost touch with reality, obviously, have a completely different situation.

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ORIGINAL: BibleL7

TMeeks Good OP

Yes it is wonderful that our God cares enough that He made Salvation free and something that we can not work for. We cant earn it and we cant keep it. It is all His work all we can do is Believe in Him and Trust in Him and Obey Him willingly and even the ability to do that comes from Him thanks to the Holy Spirit.

As to the posters who may disagree about Mental Illness and demons, I can only say as one who was delivered from a demon possession and suffers from mental illness some times those are a mixture sometimes one or the other and the Lord is so good that He will send into our lives those who are given the ability to recognize the difference and help in the way that is needed. As to the healing He heals those which will GLORIFY the Father in being healed. Many GLORIFY the Father even more in not being healed. Others GLORIFY the Father in being partly healed or healed over a long period of time. This also would answer as to why question was not about upsetting rulers or witnessing to multitude for He more than upset the rulers without ever healing or supposed breaking of Sabbath rules, for His teaching and rebuking them surely covered that the Healing on a Sabbath may have added to it but not substantially. And of course we may not always realize how anything will Glorify the Father, Yet God knows how it does.

Another example I will share is our church's Usher, he can barely communicate verbally and has limited social abilities and limited understanding, But the Lord saved him and is Glorified in the way he shows love more so than any Normal person. I have spent a number of years living with mentally ill and mentally retarded and mentally handicapped people who were saved by His grace. This I will say, I would much prefer to hang out with others who are missing a few screws or have a few loose screws than those who are normal. For those who are not normal sometimes show His love and grace much better cause people know it is God in us.

However there is one cautionary I feel I must state particularly to those who have been delivered from addictions particularly of drugs and alcohol, for those who are mentally ill and are helped by medications which they may have to take for the rest of their lives, PLEASE do not tell them that they lack faith to be healed or that they should trust the Lord and not take Meds cause He will heal particularly when you dont know if that is the case. I have seen this do so much harm and sometimes the Lord is better Glorified by not healing that aspect for they are witnesses to Doctors and counselors that are helping them as well as others whom they will see in visits to hospitals and clinics. I have seen many miracles of those afflicted working on those who are professionals and help givers. The Lord can work mightily through those whom we consider disadvantaged and it ends up saving many that would otherwise not be reached by His love.

Yes TMeeks we do serve a wonderful God who's Grace is so amazing and so awesome when we have a right relation with Him that no RELIGION will ever do. And it is sooooooo awesome that even those who are not capable of having a mind to be saved can be saved by His amazing Grace.

Just the opinion of a small town preacher who is blessed to 'Coo Coo" in words of our Usher