RE: Identity Crisis

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Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/21/2008 11:54:34 PM)
No unrepented sin, SonInMe1. Jesus Christ is God too. He was blameless and sinless. If we sin willfully (as all sin is), there it lies between us! But Jesus Christ is an advocate for us, when we have repented (turned away from our sin), and determined to follow Him. If one lives in unrepentant sin, how can one claim to know Him? Blessings! quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 quote: Jesus, in my mind, is standing between God the Father and me and when God looks at me He first sees the righteouness of Jesus. This would mean Jesus attonement won on the cross for those who believe IS final? That no sin as a saved christian can seperate you from God? I believe this to be true.

kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/22/2008 5:30:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam quote: Kingdust said: I am a saint according to the 20 verses you gave me- that is one half. The other half is me being sinner, dust, evil, nothing, an enemy of God, a subject to be condemned or denied, fallen, rotten, selfish, full of self and pride, self-centered, or self right, doing what a saint should not do- that is the undeniable reality. Very well. As you like it! I hope I don't meet you on a dark and lonely road anytime soon! [;)] LOL. Sorry I couldn't resist. But The Bible says we were enemies of God, so if you're still an enemy of God . . . well, then I would agree, there is a great chasm between you and I. And thank God for it! Because I am no longer an enemy of God. Thank you Lord!! You don’t have to be sorry because that is what a true saint would hate to do- encountering enemies of God alone in dark. I understand your feeling, but I just wonder if that is how you treat those half baked people of God, who are saint one day and in-saint another day, on a bad hair day. Again I wonder how you classify who the saint is. Do you consider me a saint or in-saint? I guess I am in-saint because I am not on your side. If you are no longer an enemy of God, but His friend, you should not do anything against God’s will. Do you do His will 24/7? If you do anything against God’s will, you are an enemy of God at the time out of His will, that is, opposing God, disobeying if you will. If Saint Peter once was called ‘Satan’, when he offered his own plan for Jesus, no other saint can avoid being called with such a name, whenever they do things right according to own feeling or thought, or standard. Don’t you do that from time to time? By the way, do you believe a saint should sin? How about ‘denying self’? If you are all saint, you don’t have ‘self’ to deny, crucifying it daily. Is your ‘old self’ not your self? What do you do when you sin against God? Blame devil for your sin? How about another saint sinning against you like falsely accusing you or back stabbing or something? Do you consider him/her still a saint or devil? Who is a saint in your eyes?

Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 1:00:05 AM)
To answer all of the questions in your post, I'll say this, "I am in agreement with what is written in the Bible." Furthermore, and quite frankly, are you OK? quote: ORIGINAL: kingdust quote: ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam quote: Kingdust said: I am a saint according to the 20 verses you gave me- that is one half. The other half is me being sinner, dust, evil, nothing, an enemy of God, a subject to be condemned or denied, fallen, rotten, selfish, full of self and pride, self-centered, or self right, doing what a saint should not do- that is the undeniable reality. Very well. As you like it! I hope I don't meet you on a dark and lonely road anytime soon! [;)] LOL. Sorry I couldn't resist. But The Bible says we were enemies of God, so if you're still an enemy of God . . . well, then I would agree, there is a great chasm between you and I. And thank God for it! Because I am no longer an enemy of God. Thank you Lord!! You don’t have to be sorry because that is what a true saint would hate to do- encountering enemies of God alone in dark. I understand your feeling, but I just wonder if that is how you treat those half baked people of God, who are saint one day and in-saint another day, on a bad hair day. Again I wonder how you classify who the saint is. Do you consider me a saint or in-saint? I guess I am in-saint because I am not on your side. If you are no longer an enemy of God, but His friend, you should not do anything against God’s will. Do you do His will 24/7? If you do anything against God’s will, you are an enemy of God at the time out of His will, that is, opposing God, disobeying if you will. If Saint Peter once was called ‘Satan’, when he offered his own plan for Jesus, no other saint can avoid being called with such a name, whenever they do things right according to own feeling or thought, or standard. Don’t you do that from time to time? By the way, do you believe a saint should sin? How about ‘denying self’? If you are all saint, you don’t have ‘self’ to deny, crucifying it daily. Is your ‘old self’ not your self? What do you do when you sin against God? Blame devil for your sin? How about another saint sinning against you like falsely accusing you or back stabbing or something? Do you consider him/her still a saint or devil? Who is a saint in your eyes?

kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 9:25:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam To answer all of the questions in your post, I'll say this, "I am in agreement with what is written in the Bible." Furthermore, and quite frankly, are you OK? I am glad to hear that you agree with the Bible. I also agree with the Bible. So, basically you and I are on the same page, however deep CHASM-like difference there is between you and me. You may not want to include me on your side but I am there just because the Bible says so. You and me have a common denominator called ‘saint’, although you are saint without sinning, old cunning dirty self, selfishness, hot temper, party spirit, self righteousness, pride, and all other in-saintly stuffs which I have. Since you are agree with the Bible, I will take verses out of the Bible that says about in-saint side of us just for you to consider for the sake of other believers who are not there with you yet. First, tell me if the verse below is for the saints or the unsaved people. quote: 1JN 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. What kind of saint has sin to confess? However, there are such as ‘sinful saints’. quote: [1PE 4:8] Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. If ‘each other’ is to mean ‘saints’, some saints are in need of the love cover over their many sins. quote: JAS 4:13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." [14] Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. [15] Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." [16] As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. [17] Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. Was James talking to saints, really? He called some businessman-saints ‘mist’. Did he ID them wrong? If he was talking to saint, he was talking about ‘evil’ done by certain saints. Here is the letter written to saints in EPH 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: quote: EPH 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. [30] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. [31] Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. [32] Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. What kind of saints talk unwholesome talk, grieve the Holy Spirit, being bitter, hot-tempered, angry, quarreling, fighting, or gossiping? If saints in Ephesus didn’t do such evils, why would Paul have even mentioned about such things? Am I taking a few verses out of context to prove my point?

kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 9:57:17 AM)
quote: 1Co 6:1 - Show Context Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 1Co 6:2 - Show Context Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Your quotes above are out of context, because you left out the saints who were suing each other in people's court of the world. You have given me not a wholesome counsel. There is a big difference between general saints and a special saint of Sue-me-or-you. I just want to add this because you didn't go to saints in EPH.

kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 10:53:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel quote: ORIGINAL: kingdust Haven’t you read or heard about such evil thing being done by ‘saints’? I'm not Dakota's Sunbeam, but your going back and forth reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister-in-law a couple summers ago. She was lamenting her "no better than dirt" status. I responded that I don't see myself that way. When God looks at me He sees Jesus. Which resulted in her saying "That's rather presumptious of you, isn't it?" That led to my explaining my position. I am a saint because of Jesus. It's not by my own righteousness that I am a saint. Jesus, in my mind, is standing between God the Father and me and when God looks at me He first sees the righteouness of Jesus. I am righteous only because it is Jesus He sees in me--not me. That's where my being a saint comes from--Jesus in me. Now, I may and most likely will commit sins in this life that by all accounts would tarnish the "saint" title I hold to, but the truth of the matter is Jesus is still between me and the Father. It never was about my righteousness, it never will be about my righteousness--it's all about Jesus. Being a saint is one thing and being self is another. You just have mentioned a face out of the two of yourself, our self rather. We have the double face, one face of the Lord and the other of ‘self’, and both faces are under our name unless we are separated from our self by the physical death or spiritual death of denying self. If you acknowledge only the saint side of you, you will have crisis when you fall from sainthood to face the in-saint side of you or other saints, saying I thought I/he/she was a Christian… It is not about positive or negative thinking but realistic thinking to see the both side without any discount. Yes, you have His righteousness cover that covers you from the wrath of God, but that doesn’t mean you live by His right standard 24/7. Rather, you can live by your right standard, naturally so, which can helplessly be your righteousness, not His, at any moment of your life process, when you choose to go your way. Unnaturally if you are lead by His Spirit every moment of your life step, that is a different story. In that case, you will produce only saintly fruits that prove that you are in fact a saint 24/7. Do we have in-saint like face? Yes, we do- that is our undeniable reality. Without acknowledgment of it, we can’t have self to deny or crucify like Saint Paul said. Without recognizing ugly self, daily we can run into ID crisis whenever we do in-saint things contrary to saint only thinking. Are we saints? Yes, according to the Bible. Are we wretched sinners? Yes, according to the Bible. Are we contradicting with self? No, not with self but with the Lord. If you are not born again, you have a self torn in two in contradiction. But, if you are born again, you must have the two different natures in one self. One is the born of the Spirit, called the new self, and the other is born of the flesh, the good old natural self. Is it too wrong to recognize and identify my good old self as sinner, not as saint? I think those who don’t is in ID crisis, not knowing what to make of evil self.

SonInMe1 -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 10:59:27 AM)
quote: But Jesus Christ is an advocate for us, when we have repented (turned away from our sin), and determined to follow Him. If one lives in unrepentant sin, how can one claim to know Him? Repentence does not keep you saved.. Repentence comes from being saved. If you are saved, then you will repent. Its a built in thing. If you do not repent, you would have to look into yourself as to why.

kmangel -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 5:45:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kingdust Are we saints? Yes, according to the Bible. Are we wretched sinners? Yes, according to the Bible. So which do we focus on--our saint status or our sinner status? I looked up the word saint in a Bible concordance and there are 117 references to saints in the Bible. I think some people might dwell more on their being a saved sinner idea of themselves rather than their being a saved saint. If a person sees him/herself as a saved sinner, then they very likely might act like one. If the person sees him/herself as a saved saint, then the person might act like one, too. All a bit of how one sees oneself. http://bibletab.com/s/saints.htm

Prairiehiker -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 5:56:52 PM)
I've been trying to find a definition of "saint" and I haven't found one. I mean, what do we really know about th word other than we use it to describe someone who's really pious. Anyhow, as mentioned before, I've been listening to the messages of John MacArthur about the "tale of two sons". So far, this is what I get out of it. I was a wretched sinner who wanted nothing to do with the father. But when I came back repenting of all the things I've done against my father, He took me back lovingly. He forgave me of all my sins, and loved me, and restored my place in the family. I tend to identify with the story because that is how I see myself--loved, forgiven and restored in the family of God? If I wasn't a sinner, there would be no need to be forgiven and restored...just loved.

Walker311 -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 6:33:48 PM)
quote: saint I always thought it was an old catholic priest that died many many years ago and did not molest anyone.

SonInMe1 -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 9:40:44 PM)
We are "saints" becuase of Christ, not what we can accomplish. We ALL sin. Some more than others, true...but as a saved person what level of sinning saves you or keeps your salvation? The answer...none. Only perfection saves and none of us are that or ever will be that, here on earth. Tp suggest or to say anything else is a lie. The good news is....Jesus Christ. No, this is not a licence to sin. It is the freedom from the yoke of sin. You do not have to be weighed down by your sin. You can overcome it. You can repent of it as a saved person. You have an advocate with the Lord and you have the Holy Spirit to guide you and help you toward the goal. To win the race. If you think that the race is over at salvation, you are, in my opinion, mistaken. It has just begun. The starting line is salvation. The bible is filled with people who know God and have a good relationship with Him, messing up. From David to Jonah to Peter to us, we are not perfect little autonitoms ( or however ya spell that ) never sinning. We are people in love with God, serving Him with all we have, and striving toward the goal. There are reasons for sanctification. Why would we need sanctifying if we already are perfect? Why would we need to repent...if we never sinned? Why ask for forgiveness if we had not sinned? The identity crisis comes as a christian when we think WE are God. WE...are not and everyday in this life proves that. Funny....how so many people claim a perfection as a christian...and are so against the name it claim it crowd...and do the exact same thing they do. Real funny.

missleyna -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/23/2008 9:53:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker I've been trying to find a definition of "saint" and I haven't found one. I mean, what do we really know about th word other than we use it to describe someone who's really pious. Anyhow, as mentioned before, I've been listening to the messages of John MacArthur about the "tale of two sons". So far, this is what I get out of it. I was a wretched sinner who wanted nothing to do with the father. But when I came back repenting of all the things I've done against my father, He took me back lovingly. He forgave me of all my sins, and loved me, and restored my place in the family. I tend to identify with the story because that is how I see myself--loved, forgiven and restored in the family of God? If I wasn't a sinner, there would be no need to be forgiven and restored...just loved. I personally love the Oxford English Dictionary, and have a free subscription to the online volumes, so I looked up "saint". It took awhile to get to the definition of how we use it and this is what I found: 3a. In biblical use, one of God's chosen people; in the New Testament, one of the elect under the New Covenant; a member of the Christian church; a Christian. It then quotes the Tyndale bible Acts 9:32 "As Peter walked throughoute all quarters, he cam to the saincts which dwelt at lydda." It also quoted the Wyclif bible 1 Cor 1:2 "To the halowid in Crist Ihesu, clepid seyntis." It had other quotes from people commenting that used the word in that context. It was used from 1382-present in that way in the English language.

kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/24/2008 8:54:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel quote: ORIGINAL: kingdust Are we saints? Yes, according to the Bible. Are we wretched sinners? Yes, according to the Bible. So which do we focus on--our saint status or our sinner status? Sinner or saint, which is to focus? I’d rather use the world ‘identify’, in order to fix our eyes on Jesus who is really Jesus, not a Jesus manufactured by my good old self who can either create god or impersonate God. If we truly can identify the good old self in seeing, feeling, thinking, acting and reacting, we can put a stop to it going in the way of my good old self, denying self if you will. (Well, no one can stop the self right way because it is right to self, but if God the Spirit convicts us, then, one may stop going the way of self right.) You will be surprise to find out that most of our thinking from seeing, hearing and feeling things is done by ‘my good old self’, naturally and instinctively so. If you let the self do its natural input and output process, you are living by your spirit, that is, your good and right value, desire, purpose, standard, plan, and all of yourself, ending up with fruits of flesh however sweet, beautiful, or highly accomplishing on earth. Unlike the good old strong self, the new self is childish, being tender, weak, even strange, unearthly, out of reality, so that many life experts laugh at the way of new. For example, no good old self loves to serve others or values serving highly, or get high from serving others. But, the new value for the new self is to serve others like Jesus did. When you do serving, your good old self is not happy about it, even grumbling. Other times the good old self counsel God what to do by a sincere prayer, even commanding God what to do, like people who name and claim whatever their heart desire. They even base their thoughts on the Bible verses. To identify what is of old sinful self or new self, or things of self or God, I can use a case Saint Peter displayed for us to learn from his ups and downs. It was not so easy even for Peter to separate old self thing from new self thing, or my thing from God’s, because both came out of the same self heart, good will if you will. First Peter confessed that Jesus is the Son of the Living God out of his sincere heart. After that, he confessed his royalty out of the sincere heart, in a way rebuking Jesus, ending up being called, ‘satan’. We don’t know how God revealed Himself to Peter’s heart so Peter can name and claim the name given to him as God the Son’s, but his next claim of ‘never’ was obviously from his good old self because it came not in agreement with the revealed death of Messiah from Jesus, but in agreement with his determination to protect his Lord from being killed, a good and sincere motivation maybe. Like Peter, we can claim things that are not of God but of our good self. I say ‘good’ old self, because we think and believe what we have is good and right- that is basically why we do what we do. But, God knows what is good and right. In fact God is good and right. If God is good and right, we who are not in agreement with God or in agreement with self only can only be evil and wrong. My thing or His thing, we need to identify whose thing before speaking or acting. If my thing is not recognized as the sinful evil thing just because it is ‘my thing’, choosing His thing is very hard, if not impossible, ending up being enemy of God, satan. Do you see the ID crisis in choosing things?

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