Identity Crisis (Full Version)

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Prairiehiker -> Identity Crisis (4/13/2008 10:21:50 PM)

The message today was about how God created us in His image, which is what makes us unique among his creations.

In reading some of the posts within the crosswalk forums, there's so many times I've read how we as Christians do not deserve anything good from God, and we are wretched sinners and there's nothing good in us. We should be thankful that God has been merciful to us.

My question is after we have been saved by the blood of Jesus, how should we view ourselves? Do we have to keep that identity that we are nothing but wretched sinners? I'm just curious about this. I mean, there's so many verses that states how God loves us, and how He fearfully made us and we're higher than the angels. We are also told that we are new creation when we accept Jesus. Granted that we were sinners because we disobeyed. But after we're saved, do we have to keep reminding ourselves of our worthless status before God?



Walker311 -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/13/2008 10:32:17 PM)

quote:

But after we're saved, do we have to keep reminding ourselves of our worthless status before God?


I figure that we don't have to unless we really are. [8D] I'm on your side.

Also, if God thought it a good thing to make me, and then send His son to die for me, then for heavens sakes... why should I continue to refer to myself as a wretched worm.



LCannon -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/14/2008 12:26:12 AM)

We are saints of the Most High God with all the privileges and responsibility of such. Our privilege is bought at His sacrifice. Our responsibility is obedience to that sacrifice/Victory hence our reward. Heaven is just a byproduct of His Glory.



Giulia -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/14/2008 2:28:32 AM)

If you are in the light then you are no longerr of the dark and if you say you have dark in you then what was His sacrifice for? We easily resort to our old way because it is easier to listen and do carnal things than it is to do spiritual things, it takes more discipline for that and that is what we must keep watch on, make sure the flesh doesn't get it's way with us.



Giulia -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/14/2008 2:42:12 AM)

As far as identity is concerned, we are kings and queen, if we have truly been bought by the blood of Christ, we are also sevants , if we are truly walking in His steps, not just servants, not just kings and queens, it's a paradox, I think that is why I always look different, we change all the time, our roles change and I think our countenance changes as well, like shapeshifters and a lot more than what we imagine ourselves to be. We are made in the image of God yet we have fallen and when born again we are transformed into His likeness so we are no longer fallen, though we still walk in this falllen flesh.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/14/2008 2:44:17 AM)

Life isn't about us..is it?

We die to SELF so Christ may live in us.

Our joy is in the Lord.

All good comes from God.

Knowing our righteousness is filthy rags is a release from the world's judgements, not a condemnation of ourselves. Our confidence comes from knowing Jesus and having Him live through us...not our works or abilities.

If circumstances make you happy, you will have no happiness.

Our joy is in the Lord.

Our identity, how people recognise us and how we see ourselves, is in the Lord.



timf -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/14/2008 7:42:35 AM)

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.



Giulia -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/14/2008 9:16:59 AM)

I know that I was made worthy to partake of the Lord's flesh and His blood, if I wasn't worthy I couldn't, I would be drinking damnation. For that reason if I have any shortcomings beforehand I need to confess them and be cleansed before I commune with God, once I confess He is faithful and forgives that I may continue to walk with Him.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/14/2008 3:51:22 PM)

Okay, I'll bite.

Daily we are to be transformed to the image of Christ. Christ, Who was the very embodiment of God's word did not think it a crime to be humbled to the likeness of sinful man or to die on a cross. The first point is humility. I think a lot of the prosperity gospel gets it wrong by telling Christians, "Your Daddy is God, and therefore you deserve a Benz or fill-in-the-blank." While its great that He adopted us back into His family, we really have no entitlement beyond what He gives us. I have found, those who believe they are entitled to THE BEST because "now I'm a child of the King," often become bitter and accuse God when bad things happen in their lives. "How could God do this!!!" They rage.

God has given us everything that pertains to life and godliness. Often we associate the spiritual with the physical. We assume that we are entitled to something in life. Because the truth is that when one speaks of just desserts, daily we do not deserve anything. We sin, think bad thoughts, etc. etc. Paul, who said he knew of no sin that he committed, said he wouldn't dare presume to consider himself perfect, because he reasoned that there might be sins he was unaware of in his life.

I do not believe that we are "wretched sinners," but saints. But again, that does not come with any entitlements in that regard. God let's the rain fall on the just and the unjust--so that means, we are not entitled to the rain any more than an unbeliever. Why is that? Well, because we are all riding on the coattails of God's grace. Without it, we'd instantly be turned into Hell. All that we have belongs to God--even our righteousness and our "saintliness." We owe EVERYTHING. Job is a great conversation about entitlements. From a man described as "perfect" from the mouth of God, in the end of this story, this "perfect" man found himself on his knees repenting in dust and ashes saying, "I'm wretched, a fool, I spoke of what I did not know." Job wanted to know why God could repay Him so nastily, when He had been so righteous. But, God responded quite candidly, "I'm God. All you have is mine. I can do whatever I like. I owe no man anything. Not even the righteous." That's a hard pill to swallow, if you've been "good" most of your life.

Consider the guy who hired his field out to laborers. He hired some in the morning, noon, and just before close. Everyone got the same pay. The ones in the morning who had worked the longest were angry because they supposed that they "should get more" (they deserved/were entitled to). The man who hired out the field, said, "Not so. I choose the wages."

I do not see myself as a wretched sinner. But I do not suppose that I am entitled to anything, as I once did.
I believe I'm a saint, saved by grace, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I see myself daily being changed to His image. I see myself as more than a conqueror and being able to do all things through Him. But, entitlements and due are not mine. I cannot earn myself into the kingdom, and if I cannot earn points, or gold stars, I cannot expect something from God other than grace. It's kind of like buying a homeless person a meal. Once I did this, and before I could finish paying, the homeless lady said something to the effect of, "I don't know what you could be thinking, buying me the meal and not buying a drink too, as I'm gonna be thirsty with this meal." She said it with a bit of disdain as though she expected it. I laughed, because I realized quickly, that it was my mercy that was getting her the meal, yet alone the drink. And I could have just as soon as said, "If you're going to have a nasty attitude about it, forget it, I won't even buy you the meal." But, I did buy her the drink too. Not because she demanded it, but because I still had pity for her. Many times, God works the same way. We think we've earned something, and this is our due! But God knows better, but because He is so merciful and loving, He gives it to us anyway. But one day, as we grow in Him, we're going to have to learn that hard lesson. We are ever at His mercy, and His goodness toward the sons of men, is simply that--His.

[:)]



kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/15/2008 6:20:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

I do not believe that we are "wretched sinners," but saints.

I do not see myself as a wretched sinner. But I do not suppose that I am entitled to anything, as I once did.
I believe I'm a saint, saved by grace, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[:)]


I think I see the identity crisis above statement; I am not sinner but saint.

We are losing one of our identity by denying the reality.
One of our identity is 'sinner', like or nor, believe or not, deny or not.
Forgetting it causes the identity crisis, I think.

Our another identity is 'saint', 'positionally', or title only, or like pay in advance, only by grace, meaning we are not yet saint in our earthly life.
Don't I know I ain't no saint, yet?
Maybe I am a good person if I compare myself with someone worse than me.
But, I do know myself and that I am not a saint 'by myself'.

If we don't believe that born of flesh is still flesh, then we have the identity crisis, thinking we are saint who has nothing to repent but something good to receive from God.

I believe we have two ID; one sinner and another saint, like good old self along with the new.



makarizo -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/15/2008 7:28:39 AM)

quote:

Do we have to keep that identity that we are nothing but wretched sinners?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for

there is a war going on between my spirit and my flesh, and every morning I put on the full armor of God. and every morning I surrender my life to Him. and take Him into the day with me... that is my identity.

Gal 5:16 ... walk by the Sprit, and you will not carry out the deeds of the flesh.



Little_1 -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/15/2008 7:40:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

The message today was about how God created us in His image, which is what makes us unique among his creations.

In reading some of the posts within the crosswalk forums, there's so many times I've read how we as Christians do not deserve anything good from God, and we are wretched sinners and there's nothing good in us. We should be thankful that God has been merciful to us.

My question is after we have been saved by the blood of Jesus, how should we view ourselves? Do we have to keep that identity that we are nothing but wretched sinners? I'm just curious about this. I mean, there's so many verses that states how God loves us, and how He fearfully made us and we're higher than the angels. We are also told that we are new creation when we accept Jesus. Granted that we were sinners because we disobeyed. But after we're saved, do we have to keep reminding ourselves of our worthless status before God?


Beloved,
Accepted,
A new creation,
Adopted into God's family,
Child of the Most High God,
Redeemed,
Sanctified,
Justified,
Friend of God,
Saint,
Bondservant,
Higher than the angels,
Ambassador of Christ...... the list just goes on - "Hallelujah"

Wow - we are sooooooooooooo privileged. [sm=angel.gif]



Focusing -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/15/2008 12:20:29 PM)

But after we're saved, do we have to keep reminding ourselves of our worthless status before God

No. What I do think is important is that we always keep in mind His tremendous love for us. We are His children - that is who we are.

Every day we need to take in His Word and remind ourselves of this fact.



Liveloved -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/15/2008 3:50:01 PM)

quote:

But after we're saved, do we have to keep reminding ourselves of our worthless status before God?


Do we have to? No.

But is His mercy a continual reminder of my need?---ABSOLUTELY!

I do not live in the worthless state. I am the beloved, redeemed child of the King. But He gave this inheritance to me through His precious blood, a gift of His mercy and grace. And as I fellowship with Him, I am continually reminded of what He has done for me. Mercy meets misery and continual thanksgiving results.

That is not a worthless state. It is an undeserving, grateful love.

Perhaps if you 'have to remind yourself', you're not living in a vital relationship with the Perfect One? (I don't say that to you specifically, Prairiehiker, but to the 'anyone' who does this.)



kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/17/2008 7:57:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

But after we're saved, do we have to keep reminding ourselves of our worthless status before God?


Do we have to? No.

But is His mercy a continual reminder of my need?---ABSOLUTELY!

I do not live in the worthless state. I am the beloved, redeemed child of the King. But He gave this inheritance to me through His precious blood, a gift of His mercy and grace. And as I fellowship with Him, I am continually reminded of what He has done for me. Mercy meets misery and continual thanksgiving results.

That is not a worthless state. It is an undeserving, grateful love.

Perhaps if you 'have to remind yourself', you're not living in a vital relationship with the Perfect One? (I don't say that to you specifically, Prairiehiker, but to the 'anyone' who does this.)


Only a sinner could value mercy, not a saint because a sinless saint have nothing to repent, making mercy meaningless.
In fact, mercy sounds strange for many 'good' folks.

If you don't see the worthless state of 'old self', you won't be able to deny it or trash it.
If you can't see the worthless old self, walking side by side with 'the perfect one', you are still blind or in denial.

The new self is our new ID, no doubt, if you are born again.
However, our old self is still with us, identifying who we are, apart from the Lord.

In no second and without a shadow of turning around, we can switch between the two different selfs.
Self is self, new or old.

Acknowledging only the new self can bring identity crisis when old self stands tall and strong, laughing at the new self.

Understanding of the old self and the new self in one self is not easier than of God and man in one person.

Do you remember that saint Paul confessed that he IS the chief sinner, not that he WAS the chief sinner?
How can a saint can be a chief sinner at the same time?



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/17/2008 11:00:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kingdust

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

I do not believe that we are "wretched sinners," but saints.

I do not see myself as a wretched sinner. But I do not suppose that I am entitled to anything, as I once did.
I believe I'm a saint, saved by grace, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[:)]


I think I see the identity crisis above statement; I am not sinner but saint.


LOL. Are you being humorous or have you seriously not read the Bible? I guess the writers of the NT were having an identity crisis too. Btw, I'll take what they say any day! Here are just a few references in the Bible. It really is worth taking a good read and studying them. I think your response is indicative of what the OP refers to. We learn our identity when we open the Bible and read and study it.

Blessings!
Mt 27:52 - Show Context
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Ac 9:13 - Show Context
Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.

Ac 9:32 - Show Context
Now it came to pass, as Peter went through all parts of the country, that he also came down to the saints who dwelt in Lydda.

Ac 9:41 - Show Context
Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive.

Ac 26:10 - Show Context
This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

Ro 1:7 - Show Context
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ro 8:27 - Show Context
Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Ro 12:13 - Show Context
distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.

Ro 15:25 - Show Context
But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints.

Ro 15:26 - Show Context
For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.

Ro 15:31 - Show Context
that I may be delivered from those in Judea who do not believe, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints,

Ro 16:2 - Show Context
that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.

Ro 16:15 - Show Context
Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.

1Co 1:2 - Show Context
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co 6:1 - Show Context
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?

1Co 6:2 - Show Context
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co 14:33 - Show Context
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

1Co 16:1 - Show Context
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:

1Co 16:15 - Show Context
I urge you, brethren--you know the household of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints--

2Co 1:1 - Show Context
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:



kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/18/2008 7:18:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

quote:

ORIGINAL: kingdust

I think I see the identity crisis above statement; I am not sinner but saint.


LOL. Are you being humorous or have you seriously not read the Bible? I guess the writers of the NT were having an identity crisis too. Btw, I'll take what they say any day! Here are just a few references in the Bible. It really is worth taking a good read and studying them. I think your response is indicative of what the OP refers to. We learn our identity when we open the Bible and read and study it.


I am not sure if I am humorous or serious about the sainthood assumed by us sinners, but one thing I know I am serious about is the ‘reality’ side of it.
Another thing I know is I am just guessing, so that you don’t have to be too serious about my seeing in my way, unless you think what you know is absolutely, positively, seriously, and realistically sure thing.

I don’t think the writers of the NT had the identity crisis you and I have, but believe many ordinary believers had, just like us do.

My take on the ID crisis may not be the same crisis you feel or not seen at the same angle you see.
Let me reveal what is in my mind.
See how critical it is.

There are saints of all kinds; gossiping saint, judgmental saint, racist saint, my denomination saint, my dogma saint, self righteous saint, discriminating saint, mocking saint, unforgiving saint, KJV only saint, white or black only saint, bitter saint, angry saint, canal saint…
If you don’t count the sinner ID, you can’t solve this unlikely equation.

Are you really a saint, having nothing to do with those half saint and half beast?

Do you love your enemy at the first site?
Is your anger righteous all the time?
How about your thoughts?
Is it saint-like 24/7?
Do you love your cranky neighbor like yourself, like a saint should?

Do you blame devil for anything in-saint happen, because no saint can cause any evil thing?

I don’t read the Bible much like you do but I can read the reality Bible- real life.
In reality Bible, I see the sinner ID black and white.
Not that I don’t see the saint ID, but a lot less than ‘the first born ID’, born of flesh if you will.

My ID is no more or no less than I am who I am.
Who am I?
Don’t I know my self?

The real crisis comes when I forget who I am or assume someone I am not, pretense if you will.
You can assume the sainthood but the reality doesn’t agree.
So, you must clear the disagreeing reality before taking the sainthood.

Study the reality and you will see what I am getting at.

In case you didn't notice, I uphold the double ID, not a single ID, and believe a single ID can bring crisis when faced another ID in denial.



Prairiehiker -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/18/2008 10:33:49 AM)

Thanks for all the replies. It's an honest question that I wrestle with. How we view ourselves is very powerful in determining how we live out our faith.

I've been following John MacArthur's exposition of the Prodigal Son. It's been interesting as far as our identity is concern. If anyone is interested, here's the link. I don't think he's done with the series.

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/grace_to_you/archives.asp?cp=2



DaveW -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/18/2008 12:56:49 PM)

I like some of McArthurs stuff and as for the other, well......

My take on this is that we have all these wonderful statements in scripture about who and what we are IN HIM. However, if we ever focus on that instead of how we have walked in disobedience (maybe not today but last year, 20 years ago, etc) and that we could be back there in a second if we are not careful, then we set ourselves up for a fall. There is an honest assesment of those statements and then there is a pride that can creep in with such things as:

I am holy. I am special to God. I am the rightousness of Christ.

I am - I am - I am. Focus is on ME. this is nothing but pride.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/18/2008 8:11:22 PM)

quote:

My take on the ID crisis may not be the same crisis you feel or not seen at the same angle you see.
Let me reveal what is in my mind.
See how critical it is.
[sm=sadquestion.gif]

I didn't quite "get" your post, but I'm going to guess from a few phrases, that you disagree. I think the 20 references of scripture with the word "saint," that I posted are good enough for me!

[sm=wave.gif]



kingdust -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/20/2008 9:18:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

quote:

My take on the ID crisis may not be the same crisis you feel or not seen at the same angle you see.
Let me reveal what is in my mind.
See how critical it is.
[sm=sadquestion.gif]

I didn't quite "get" your post, but I'm going to guess from a few phrases, that you disagree. I think the 20 references of scripture with the word "saint," that I posted are good enough for me!

[sm=wave.gif]


You didn’t get anything at all?
You must be a fine saint who is sinless and had never heard about any saint gossiping, discriminating, being self righteous, hating, partying, being always right and never wrong, never judging wrong, having clean thoughts 27/7…, including yourself.

I guess ‘guessing’ is a bad habit for a saint because it causes a lot of evil like misunderstanding, twisting, misjudging, misguiding, fighting, or even killing.
Guessing hurts relationship even among saints, unless your guessing is 100% right all the time.

You have guessed wrong this time.
I disagreed with you only half way, because I also believe I am a saint according to the 20 verses you gave me- that is one half.
The other half is me being sinner, dust, evil, nothing, an enemy of God, a subject to be condemned or denied, fallen, rotten, selfish, full of self and pride, self-centered, or self right, doing what a saint should not do- that is the undeniable reality.

Again you must be a fine saint, who is completely free from such sins.
Or, are you blind to the reality of such rotten self?

You asked me to read the Bible, so I did.
Here is a verse that may change your ‘exclusively saint-like thinking’.

quote:

1ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am CHIEF.


Pay attention to the fact that Paul didn’t say he ‘WAS’ chief.
Shouldn’t he say that he ‘was’ chief since Christ saved and made him saint on the way to Damascus?

I also have read about partying saints, another word, ‘discriminating’.
You might have heard about discrimination between races but maybe never between social classes, even in churches of saint.

quote:

Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?


Haven’t you read or heard about such evil thing being done by ‘saints’?
Or, maybe you can’t spare an ear to listen anything other than those 20 saint verses?



terryjohn -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/20/2008 3:14:26 PM)

Acts 11:9 "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'



kmangel -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/21/2008 7:58:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kingdust

Haven’t you read or heard about such evil thing being done by ‘saints’?



I'm not Dakota's Sunbeam, but your going back and forth reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister-in-law a couple summers ago. She was lamenting her "no better than dirt" status. I responded that I don't see myself that way. When God looks at me He sees Jesus. Which resulted in her saying "That's rather presumptious of you, isn't it?" That led to my explaining my position. I am a saint because of Jesus. It's not by my own righteousness that I am a saint. Jesus, in my mind, is standing between God the Father and me and when God looks at me He first sees the righteouness of Jesus. I am righteous only because it is Jesus He sees in me--not me. That's where my being a saint comes from--Jesus in me.

Now, I may and most likely will commit sins in this life that by all accounts would tarnish the "saint" title I hold to, but the truth of the matter is Jesus is still between me and the Father. It never was about my righteousness, it never will be about my righteousness--it's all about Jesus.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/21/2008 9:10:13 PM)

quote:

Jesus, in my mind, is standing between God the Father and me and when God looks at me He first sees the righteouness of Jesus.


This would mean Jesus attonement won on the cross for those who believe IS final? That no sin as a saved christian can seperate you from God?

I believe this to be true.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Identity Crisis (4/21/2008 11:51:48 PM)

quote:


Kingdust said:

I am a saint according to the 20 verses you gave me- that is one half.
The other half is me being sinner, dust, evil, nothing, an enemy of God, a subject to be condemned or denied, fallen, rotten, selfish, full of self and pride, self-centered, or self right, doing what a saint should not do- that is the undeniable reality.


Very well. As you like it! I hope I don't meet you on a dark and lonely road anytime soon! [;)] LOL. Sorry I couldn't resist.

But The Bible says we were enemies of God, so if you're still an enemy of God . . . well, then I would agree, there is a great chasm between you and I. And thank God for it! Because I am no longer an enemy of God.

Thank you Lord!!



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