Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Church



Message

crankius -> Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/14/2008 11:39:10 PM)

Here is an interesting article on authoritarianism by Steve Martin (no, not the comedian[:D]):

Here are his main points, excerpted from the article:
quote:

Sins of the Shepherds:
Today's authoritarian shepherds seem to fall prey to one or more of the following sins as they exercise their ministry.

1. Idolatry: the sinful desires of some men to always be in control, especially the control of the lives of God's sheep. Such sin is but a thinly veiled attempt to play God.

2. Praylessness: authoritarian pastors do not rely upon prayer for their people as a primary instrument ordained by God for the edification of His people. As a result, they verbally coerce and bully their people to conform.

3. Unbelief: many office holders do not believe the declarative statements and promises of God in the Scripture. … They really do not believe that the Holy Spirit will superintend His people and convict them of sin when away from the shepherd.

4. Lack of love for the sheep: shepherds in ancient Palestine walked ahead of their sheep, leading them on and calling them by name to follow them to green pastures and cool waters. …Sadly, in too many congregations today, sheep are driven by a man more like a callous meat packer than a loving shepherd. Many modern shepherds don't even like sheep; its just their business. In fact, men are encouraged not to get too close to the sheep or emotionally involved in their lives and problems.

5. Pride: at root, all the above mentioned sins of office bearers stem from an inflated sense of their own importance.


The Sins of the Sheep
Sad to say, but the sheep themselves contribute their own sins to the creation of authoritarian ministries...

1. Idol-worship: sinful flesh is not content with the reality of the one true God. It wants to fashion an idol in place of the invisible God who is spirit. There is always the temptation to act like the Jews of Saul's time who wanted a human leader they could see, rather than the unseen God (cf. 1 Kings 8:1-18).

2. Fear of man: too many sheep are more gripped by the desire to please a man or more fearful of displeasing a man than they are of pleasing or displeasing Almighty God (cf. Prov. 29:25; John 5:41-44).

3. Unbelief: too many sheep do not believe that God still guides His people today through the means of prayerful meditation upon the Word of God and the illuminating ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is easier for the flesh to suspend the use of spiritual faculties and scriptural means of guidance for the short-cut of asking the leader to determine God's will and make the decisions all the time.


He concludes with some commentary on how to remedy this situation. I encourage you to click the link to the article to read the entire text in context.

disclaimer: I know nothing about Founders Ministries--I had just found this article many years ago and bookmarked it.

Discuss:
Does authoritarianism belong in the church?
Do you think anyone currently acting in an authoritarian manner would admit to it?[8D]
Are you guilty of any of these sins (of shepherds or sheep) he lists?



earthless -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 7:51:22 AM)

My wife came out of a HYPER Charismatic/Word of Faith church where she would have to call and ask the 'Apostle' permission to not attend one of the 6 services/meetings held every week.



J_Michael80 -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 7:58:02 AM)

quote:

original: crankius

Do you think anyone currently acting in an authoritarian manner would admit to it?


A pastor will NEVER admit to being a (idolator, praylessness, unbelieving, unloving, prideful & arrogant). That means they don't practice what they preach. Hence, they are what they are.....

"They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend." (Isaiah 44:18)

"Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed." (2 Peter 2:10-12)



rcjames -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 10:05:27 AM)

I think it would depend on one's definition of "Authoritarianism".

If we are talking about 'Control" Churches where the Church leadership orders people about in their private lives and names them heretics if they don't do everything the leaderships tells them; then it has no place.

If we are talking about the Biblical authority given to Elders, etc. then yes it does have a place as in;

(Heb 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

and

(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Rev. Earl Paulk of Chappel Hill in Atlanta is an example os a "Control" CHurch that has no place in the Kingdon, The old Kansas City Fellowship is another in my mind.

Thanks
RC



groovymovieman -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 11:05:40 AM)

quote:

If we are talking about the Biblical authority given to Elders, etc. then yes it does have a place as in;

(Heb 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

and

(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


RC, you are aware that both those versus are a very poor translation. The actual Greek reads more like this:

"Remember them which have oversight among you..." Hebrews 13:7

"Allow yourself to be persuaded by those that have oversight..." Hebrews 13:17
And then when that verse says, "they must give an account" it's talking about those who have over sight will be accountable to God for how they love and treat people. It's not saying that the people are accountable to them.

Thanks to authoritarian men translating the Bible we've got some poor translations, as those two verses so illustrate, and have been used by authoritarian men to keep the sheep in line.



crankius -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 11:28:20 AM)

I do not think scripture supports an authoritarianism view of leadership in Christianity.

Consider the term rule in Hebrews 13:7
Hegeomai (hJgevomai)-to lead, middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of Ago, which also means to lead.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.

In the context of all of scripture, I think we can safely say an elder is charged with leading, but not “ruling” as in “Lording over”, or taking command.


Consider the obey in Hebrews 13:17
Peitho--be persuaded by, to persuade, trust and confidence in
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

The “submit” in Hebrews 13:17 is Hupeiko (to resist no longer, to give way).


And also consider what Jesus stated about shepherding:

Matthew 20:25-28
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave--just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

And this additional text from 1 Peter

1 Peter 5:1-5
The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”



Elders and all leadership within Christianity are to lead by example, shepherding with great care, knowing Christ is the Chief Shepherd, and trusting the same Holy Spirit resides in each of us. We are to be mutually submissive to one another as believers—it’s not just a one-way street from the sheep to the under-shepherds.

In addition, scriptural shepherding is to persuade through the scriptures with clear and sound doctrine, so that the sheep will recognize the voice of their Chief Shepherd, and happily submit to the Word of God (and not resist sound teaching) under the gentle leadership of the under-shepherd.



groovymovieman -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 11:36:39 AM)

Good post crankius.



rcjames -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 2:57:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman

quote:

If we are talking about the Biblical authority given to Elders, etc. then yes it does have a place as in;

(Heb 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

and

(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


RC, you are aware that both those versus are a very poor translation. The actual Greek reads more like this:

"Remember them which have oversight among you..." Hebrews 13:7

"Allow yourself to be persuaded by those that have oversight..." Hebrews 13:17
And then when that verse says, "they must give an account" it's talking about those who have over sight will be accountable to God for how they love and treat people. It's not saying that the people are accountable to them.

Thanks to authoritarian men translating the Bible we've got some poor translations, as those two verses so illustrate, and have been used by authoritarian men to keep the sheep in line.


Yes, those in authority must give account for thoxe under their authority; which proves my point.

I readily agree that there are some (maybe many) "Nicolations" among us, but there are more in the independent lone ranger Churches (and home groups) than in organized Churches with oversight to prevent this very tragedy.

Thanks
RC



crankius -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/15/2008 5:53:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman

Good post crankius.


Thanks, Mr. Groovy. [:D]



DaveW -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/17/2008 3:17:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

The old Kansas City Fellowship is another in my mind.
Do you mean Ministries of Agape under David Rose and David Aushalt?



DaveW -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/17/2008 3:25:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: groovymovieman

RC, you are aware that both those versus are a very poor translation. The actual Greek reads more like this:

"Remember them which have oversight among you..." Hebrews 13:7

"Allow yourself to be persuaded by those that have oversight..." Hebrews 13:17
And then when that verse says, "they must give an account" it's talking about those who have over sight will be accountable to God for how they love and treat people. It's not saying that the people are accountable to them.

Thanks to authoritarian men translating the Bible we've got some poor translations, as those two verses so illustrate, and have been used by authoritarian men to keep the sheep in line.
Actually the NASB and ESV (both excelent literal translations) are closer to what RC wrote than what version you used:

Heb 13:17 NASB Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:17 ESV Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.

And who do those leaders give account to? God. Consider this:

Gen 18:10 The LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah.
Gen 18:12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?"
Gen 18:13 The LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?'
Gen 18:14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son."
Gen 18:15 But Sarah denied it, saying, "I did not laugh," for she was afraid. He said, "No, but you did laugh."

Who did God hold accountable for Sarah laughing? Abraham who probably had not even heard her. That is what the author of Hebrews is talking about, the leadership must give an account for the sins and immaturity of their congregants.



SD456 -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/17/2008 5:49:04 PM)

I agree that 'authoriatarian' leadership is not biblical.

You find it in every denomination equally. It's humans who lead, what do we expect?

I agree that it is both pastors and sheep who are guilty of promoting this. I've seen sheep who are more authoratarian in their stances than even the pastor and they hurt people's faith who are around them.

Parents can have the same problem. They can rule with a controling hand and cause their children to rebel.



crankius -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/17/2008 6:31:46 PM)

SD,

Interesting point about the parents.

The scriptural term for obeying our parents is different from the term used for obeying our elders.

We obey (Hupakouo--to listen, harken to a command) our parents and masters.
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
Col 3:22a Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh;

Scripture gives parents way more authority over their children than it gives elders over the sheep. Children aren't supposed to just be persuaded by their parents--they are to literally listen and DO what their parents say. This same obey is also used for servants to their masters.

Scripture uses obey (Peitho) for elders.

(I'm making a point about the word obey here. Clearly scripture gives a lot more instructions to parents than to simply teach our children to obey our whims [;)].)



SD456 -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/17/2008 8:28:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

SD,

Interesting point about the parents.

The scriptural term for obeying our parents is different from the term used for obeying our elders.

We obey (Hupakouo--to listen, harken to a command) our parents and masters.
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
Col 3:22a Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh;

Scripture gives parents way more authority over their children than it gives elders over the sheep. Children aren't supposed to just be persuaded by their parents--they are to literally listen and DO what their parents say. This same obey is also used for servants to their masters.

Scripture uses obey (Peitho) for elders.

(I'm making a point about the word obey here. Clearly scripture gives a lot more instructions to parents than to simply teach our children to obey our whims [;)].)


yes, I agree with you. I meant that parents can have the same controling problem as pastors in that they don't trust God to work in their children's hearts and the HS to convict them. I've seen some kids run from the church for years and years, not because of a pastor but because of over-controling parents who were way too authoritarian in their spiritual guiding of them.



crankius -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/17/2008 8:51:03 PM)

SD,

I agree, and I've seen that too.



bluestone -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/18/2008 10:33:22 AM)

People get into authoritarian churches because they lack discernment, scriptural knowledge, and are easily imtimidated by those who claim to have God's mantle.

These types of churches can easily slide down the slope into full blown culthood.

My answer to pastors that preach "my way or the highway"..[sm=car.gif][sm=car.gif][sm=wave.gif]



bluestone -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/18/2008 10:34:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

yes, I agree with you. I meant that parents can have the same controling problem as pastors in that they don't trust God to work in their children's hearts and the HS to convict them. I've seen some kids run from the church for years and years, not because of a pastor but because of over-controling parents who were way too authoritarian in their spiritual guiding of them.


I have seen a lot of this, sadly.



earthless -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/19/2008 8:42:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

yes, I agree with you. I meant that parents can have the same controling problem as pastors in that they don't trust God to work in their children's hearts and the HS to convict them. I've seen some kids run from the church for years and years, not because of a pastor but because of over-controling parents who were way too authoritarian in their spiritual guiding of them.


Great post.



colliefan -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/20/2008 4:02:48 PM)

Examine the life of Jesus. He was a man of authority under authority. A man who believes, he alone, has all power usually is a cowardly weakling.



Lycea -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/21/2008 4:40:52 PM)

I know some who are proudly authoritarian. One man I knew actually used the phrase, "The buck stops here." He had no qualms about being the supreme dictator in the church.



earthless -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/21/2008 5:16:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lycea

I know some who are proudly authoritarian. One man I knew actually used the phrase, "The buck stops here." He had no qualms about being the supreme dictator in the church.


Sounds like my wife's old "Apostle"....



prophet -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/21/2008 9:51:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lycea

I know some who are proudly authoritarian. One man I knew actually used the phrase, "The buck stops here." He had no qualms about being the supreme dictator in the church.


Sounds like my wife's old "Apostle"....


Sounds like me "bishop"....



prophet -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/21/2008 10:02:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

People get into authoritarian churches because they lack discernment, scriptural knowledge, and are easily imtimidated by those who claim to have God's mantle.

These types of churches can easily slide down the slope into full blown culthood.

My answer to pastors that preach "my way or the highway"..[sm=car.gif][sm=car.gif][sm=wave.gif]


Thats me recently..... "..[sm=car.gif][sm=car.gif][sm=wave.gif]



crankius -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/21/2008 11:18:39 PM)

I know of a board of elders who told a man, "God speaks to us first." Pride can happen anywhere.



prophet -> RE: Does authoritarianism belong in the church? (4/21/2008 11:50:41 PM)

crankius

Yes, it can happen anyway BUt the heirachical structure of the human made "preisthood" and laity allows for much more abuse of power.

Elders can( i ssume be) voted out while the priest cannot be. While at least, a group of elders can make collective descisons, thus avodiing single decision maker as in a priest led structure.



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI