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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/20/2008 11:34:05 PM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themaestro
You guys here think one or two every few yrs will kill the soul. I am thoroughly confused.
I am too. Who said that?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 7:27:32 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tall_One
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
except for one tiny little thing. it is not necessarily a sin to express frustration or anger, it is always a sin to murder.
This is purely my opinion... but losing your temper with your Heavenly Father does not show faith. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. Shouldn't we be about pleasing Him?
i think a faith walking person can have days and moments of less faith, less strength etc. expressing frustration etc is not a place to live.
also it's not faithless to feel very low and express that place to God. is it not a faith thing to approach the throne of God boldly not fearing condemnation?
It is a faith thing to be able to approach the throne of God boldly. But boldness and respect are not mutually exclusive traits. We can be bold and still be respectful.
So you would rather set yourself above Human level and act in a very respectful and honoring manner to a God who knows when you are really feeling angry, hurt, joyful or some other emotion which you would rather hide?
God respects an honest human being much more than a person who hides behind the shadow of respect and honor.
Revelations 3:16
"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
I think there's a very BIG difference between remembering WHO God is while we cry out to Him and false piousness.
Many of us are able to express ourselves, all of the hurt, confusion, anger and bitterness, without cussing at God or forgetting that He's God and we're not. We are able to be honest about every emotion we're feeling and every question we have without using vulgarities.
Could God handle it if we did? Of course. Can He handle it when you do? Of course. But telling me that my prayers are wimpy, lukewarm or monotone because I don't cuss God out is kind of ridiculous.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 7:32:01 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themaestro
Little lady...
You seem to like being offensive to others and no doubt your arguments contain some element of defending your right to be so. I guess if you can tell God where to get off, that gives you license with everyone else, too.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 7:42:06 AM
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themaestro
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tall_One
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I think people sometimes forget that we are to be in awe of God. We are to be respectful of Him.
Why would I talk to Him in a way I would never talk to my Earthly Father? I would not intentionally be disrespectful to Him.
God knows us inside and out, top and bottom. Why wouldn't He? He created us in His own likeness.
Going on that premise, God appreciates when we are honest with Him in ALL that we do with and for Him. And, at times when I am angry, upset, tearful, joyful, gleeful, worried, fearful, .. I will come to God and talk with him. Many times I have yelled at God, but you know ... each time God lovingly comes back and says in the softest voice possible ... I love you. I have loved you before you were born and I will continue to love you until you are with me in My heavens. God knows us as we are. Sometimes God stays silent, but He always comes back with an answer for our questions no matter how demanding they might be at the time. He chooses to either answer us in our spirits or allow circumstances on earth to occur which will teach us His ways are best. Either way, God chooses to love us as a Father! I feel it is best to be open and honest with God at all times. This does not mean I am disrespectful and dishonoring my God through my honesty. I am reminded of the parable of the two brothers. Do you know it?
Matthew 21:28-31a
"But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father?"
For me, the son who said "I will not: but afterward he repented and went."
Be honest with our God - our Father in Heaven - is paramount to having a close walk with God. To hide our true feelings when talking with God is trying to deceive our God.
I think God appreciates it when I lose my cool with Him, because I am not afraid to be myself: someone He created to be exactly like me!
Spot on lil bird
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 8:03:24 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tall_One
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
God won't wilt if you go on a killing spree either, but that doesn't mean He's up there cheering for you and saying go for it. And I have yet to meet anyone who yells and curses who was "in control". And I've been around a lot of that. As have I. And considering one of the fruits of the spirit is "self control", I think there's another bit of scriptural proof (it's in Galatians) that losing control in your prayers is bad.
Prove it! Book, Chapter and verse! I don't think you can, nor do I think you will stand up to your own challenge.
Ooo... a challenge. 
I'm going to put parts of this passage in bold to emphasize my point. Just to say here that the emphasis added is mine.
Galatians 5:19-24
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires."
I'll take them one by one. The "acts of the sinful nature" are indeed obvious. The list is a long one, but you'll see among that list "fits of rage". Exactly what is being done when someone dares talk to their creator in the fashion I see defended here. Imagine a watch criticizing it's designer to understand the rediculousness of the idea of talking to one's Creator as though He were just one of the guys.
BUT, the "furit of the spirit" are listed too. One of those listed is self control. To control your anger when you talk to your creator is not being lukewarm. It's being reverent. To spew out vulgarities is not being honest. It's just being vulgar. God wants honesty, but as you can see here, He doesn't want "fits of rage".
You might say, "This isn't about prayer." That's true. It's not. It's about every day life. Everything in every day life. Prayer is part of every day life, or it should be. Maybe if we spent more time at the feet of our King, we wouldn't be cussing at Him so much.
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 10:19:50 AM
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bluestone
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seems we have two groups, according to that scripture. Those who are spirit filled, and those who are not.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 11:34:29 AM
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themaestro
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quote:
fits of rage
how is an honest exchange wth God "rage". You may want to look up the definition of rage.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 11:42:18 AM
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Kath
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from 5 different dictionaries... RAGE
Especially, anger accompanied with raving; overmastering wrath; violent anger; fury.
1 a: violent and uncontrolled anger b: a fit of violent wrath
(a period of) extreme or violent anger
Violent, explosive anger.
1297, from O.Fr. raige (11c.), from M.L. rabia, from L. rabies "madness, rage, fury," related to rabere "be mad, rave."
Not the way I'd speak to the Lord.
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[Deleted] - 4/21/2008 11:55:30 AM
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[Deleted] - 4/21/2008 12:05:38 PM
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 12:54:41 PM
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themaestro
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
from 5 different dictionaries... RAGE
Especially, anger accompanied with raving; overmastering wrath; violent anger; fury.
1 a: violent and uncontrolled anger b: a fit of violent wrath
(a period of) extreme or violent anger
Violent, explosive anger.
1297, from O.Fr. raige (11c.), from M.L. rabia, from L. rabies "madness, rage, fury," related to rabere "be mad, rave."
Not the way I'd speak to the Lord.
You are adding to what I have said. You are selectively hearing what I am saying. I pray when I am hurt and frustrated not a raging lunatic. Even if I did God is the comforter and cam someone down. Twice I was really upset and cried out to the Lord not blaming or yelling at him but crying out to him and once I used the vernacular for poop describing my situation. Based on this you guys have me being a foul mouthed sailor. How is crying out to the Lord in pain irreverent? Does everyone you know talk and pry in their library voices? I have been in churches of different races and their prayers were more boisterous than I was used to but I would not say it was irreverent. This argument is almost as bad as the "there is only one style of music pleasing to God" arguments.
If Jacob can wrestle with the Angel of the Lord and be BLESSED because of it, I think it's safe to say God isn't concerned about our polite reverence as much as He is about getting to the heart of our hearts.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 1:41:11 PM
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Apaise
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tall_One
I guess it depends on what Bible translation you use. For me, the King James Version is best and in that translation, I do not see the "self control" you refer to nor is it mentioned in any of the verbage I am familiar with.
I use the KJV too (as that is my preference), but the KJV was translated in 1611. Just because you don't see the words "self-control" in the verse does not mean they're not there. After all, this is the 21st century, we no longer talk like Shakespeare. 
Then again, that might be a shame, since the average vocabulary is now sadly lacking.  From Webster (I took the liberty of bolding certain portions):
Temperance
Tem"per*ance\, n. [L. temperantia: cf. F. temp['e]rance. See Temper, v. t.]
1. Habitual moderation in regard to the indulgence of the natural appetites and passions; restrained or moderate indulgence; moderation; as, temperance in eating and drinking; temperance in the indulgence of joy or mirth; specifically, moderation, and sometimes abstinence, in respect to using intoxicating liquors.
2. Moderation of passion; patience; calmness; sedateness. [R.] "A gentleman of all temperance." --Shak.
He calmed his wrath with goodly temperance. --Spenser.
3. State with regard to heat or cold; temperature. [Obs.] "Tender and delicate temperance." --Shak.
From the Random House Unabridged Dictionary (again, I took the liberty of bolding certain parts):
temperance
–noun 1. moderation or self-restraint in action, statement, etc.; self-control.
2. habitual moderation in the indulgence of a natural appetite or passion, esp. in the use of alcoholic liquors.
3. total abstinence from alcoholic liquors.
No one is advocating not praying without ceasing. Nor is anyone advocating that we only come to God when everything is hunky-dory in our lives to keep from being angry when we pray. No one has said that God wants less than total honesty from us. What they HAVE said is that God deserves more than a foully worded temper tantrum. God Himself demands than we come to Him in reverence for Who and What He is.
Ps 89:6-7 (KJV)
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Heb 12:28-29 (KJV)
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
quote:
How is crying out to the Lord in pain irreverent? Does everyone you know talk and pry in their library voices? I have been in churches of different races and their prayers were more boisterous than I was used to but I would not say it was irreverent. This argument is almost as bad as the "there is only one style of music pleasing to God" arguments.
Again, no one is advocating that we not come to the Lord when we are in pain. The Bible is chock full of laments, even from Jesus. And no one said that you should only pray as if you are in a library. The issue is whether or not our prayers should be reverent (which they should). You can be loud without having a potty mouth. Why is it that language that society deems unacceptable in front of certain groups of people is somehow perfectly ok when speaking to the Creator of the universe? Do people deserve more respect than God?
God is not your buddy or your pal, He is your God. He is holy, and righteous, and He demands to be treated as such.
< Message edited by Apaise -- 4/21/2008 1:49:00 PM >
_____________________________
"God has paid us the intolerable compliment of loving us, in the deepest, most tragic, most inexorable sense."
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 1:56:55 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9048
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Excellent post, Apaise!
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 2:12:55 PM
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txhoneydarlin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: themaestro
One time I use one or two choice words and now everyone thinks I recommend using them in every prayer. I have scoured this site for days as a lurker and I came across numerous posts that say there is no prohibition on profanity. You guys here think one or two every few yrs will kill the soul. I am thoroughly confused.
Not so sure about it killing the soul. I don't believe so. But I do believe it's very important to approach my Creator, Heavenly Father, King of Kings, etc. with reverence. After all, He could very well say, "I AM, and you were."
Would He? No. He loves me. It is that love that makes me want to give Him my best.
(sorry I took the liberty of emphasizing your words, James - hope that was okay) Well said! And what a wonderful point you made - God could wipe us off this earth with a mere wink of His eyes - instead, He loves us enough that He doesn't - even when we deserve it.
_____________________________
- Melissa
Unforgiveness is like taking poison and hoping your enemy will die. - Joyce Meyer
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 2:59:45 PM
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txhoneydarlin
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Apaise - You took the words right out of my mouth... I was looking up the definition of temperance, right when I saw your post. What else is temperance besides self-control?
As John 15:5 says, “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing." And in Galatians 5:22 - 23, the fruits are identified. "But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!"
I'm not saying that we can't be honest with God about our thoughts and feelings - but I do think that we all need to approach our Savior with reverence, and yes, with self-control, especially when we speak to Him. Look at all He does for us - and with love and no complaints, pointed fingers, criticism or harsh demands!
I'm sure that what I am going to say next will be misconstrued in some way, but here's the view I have. If we approach one another in love, but yet we speak harshly or in anger to one another (being totally honest when doing so), how many of us would turn a deaf ear to the conversation? I'm not suggesting that God would turn a deaf ear to us when we speak to Him (and I'm also not suggesting hiding our anger from Him). Rather, I'm asking if our conversation with Him wouldn't be more pleasant and fruitful if we chose to speak to Him honestly, yet without harsh and bitter words? (We can find ways to express our anger without going there, IMO.) I know that given a choice, I would rather any of you speak to me with gentleness and self-control, even when expressing your displeasure with me or my actions. As Proverbs 15:4 states, "Gentle words are a tree of life...", and before that passage, Proverbs 15:1 states, "A gentle answer deflects anger, but harsh words make tempers flare." We should want to give life with our words instead of inducing wrath - whether it is wrath from our God, from fellow Christians or from anyone else. After all, Proverbs 18:21 tells us, "The tongue can bring death or life..." What are our tongues doing when we rant and rave at God when we pray to Him? And what does that say about our attitude towards Him, if we choose to use harsh words? After all, didn't He make the ultimate sacrifice to save us when He could have chosen to wipe us in our sinful ways off this earth? I think instead, we should be rejoicing that we have a Savior that loves us so much that He gave His only son for us. He wants to draw near to us, to love us without ceasing, to comfort us during times we are hurting and to rejoice with us in times of joy! He provides all our needs! Again, this is just my two cents' worth...
One more thing I want to share with you that I find to be true and gives me pause for reflection in my life, my words and my actions...
A Heart Temperature Chart
An ANGRY mouth indicates a HURT & HARSH heart.
A NEGATIVE/CRITICAL mouth indicates a FEARFUL heart.
An OVERACTIVE mouth indicates an UNSETTLED heart.
A JUDGEMENTAL mouth indicates a GUILTY heart.
A FOUL & DIRTY mouth indicates an IMPURE heart.
A CRITICAL & BOASTING mouth indicates an INSECURE heart.
An ENCOURAGING mouth indicates a HAPPY heart.
A GENTLE mouth indicates a LOVING & MERCIFUL heart.
A HEALING mouth indicates a PEACEFUL & CONTENT heart.
A CONTROLLED mouth indicates a SUBMISSIVE heart.
What is the temperature of your heart, especially when you approach God in prayer?
_____________________________
- Melissa
Unforgiveness is like taking poison and hoping your enemy will die. - Joyce Meyer
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 3:03:57 PM
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bluestone
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good points, Melissa.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 3:59:25 PM
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phosadaud
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I'm still having difficulty grasping the concept that the ONLY way to be open with God about your feelings is to yell and curse. I'm very open with God. I learned long ago that He knows what I'm feeling anyway, so just admit it. That has absolutely nothing to do with the volume I pray in or anything.
I had a very difficult meeting a month or so back where I was very upset. Did I yell? No. Did I cuss? No. Was I rude? No. Was I snarky? No. However, I shared my heart and made my point in a calm manner. If I could show basic respect to those imperfect folks I was upset with, why should I treat God with less respect?
You can share the deepest, most dark pain in your heart with God and still be respectful and honoring of your Lord and Maker.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 5:31:19 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16932
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If someone feels like it's acceptable to pray in such a way that is between them and the Lord. What I don't understand is the attitude that if I don't pray that way I'm mealy mouth, insincere, or dishonest.
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[Deleted] - 4/21/2008 5:47:08 PM
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[Deleted] - 4/21/2008 6:36:32 PM
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 6:54:24 PM
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themaestro
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quote:
<< and I don't appreciate being told to the world that I did. No one likes words put into their mouths by others. I believe it was "TheMaestro" who did
What did I do tall one?
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RE: Not so saintly prayers to God? Anyone? - 4/21/2008 8:07:37 PM
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armydude
Posts: 17148
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tall_One
I guess it depends on what Bible translation you use. For me, the King James Version is best and in that translation, I do not see the "self control" you refer to nor is it mentioned in any of the verbage I am familiar with.
If you want to start a KJV debate here, don't. There's a thread for that. I'm not going to link to it because I don't see how a translation that came about over a thousand years after the last apostle's death got picked as the "only right one". So I never go to that thread. It's in theology. For the record, I used the NIV.
I can quote the same verses in the KJV, but also for the record "temperance" is the word translated as "self control".
I looked up the word temperance in the dictionary, and this was the very first definition.
temperance: moderation or self-restraint in action, statement, etc.; self-control.
So, yes the KJV, does use "self control". It just doesn't spell it out so easily. You have to study a bit.
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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